Blu-ray on a Budget in Uncertain Times

[admin]

Bubbles may burst, Lehman may crumble, AIG may get bailed out - but gold isn’t the only comodity on the rise, so is Blu. These days consumers may be thinking twice about a buying a new high-definition disc player. The Memorex MVBD-2510 and Best Buy’s Insignia NS-BRDVD have arrived to combat those price-tag willies.

Discuss "Blu-ray on a Budget in Uncertain Times" here. Read the article.

 

[FirstReflection]

Personally, I'm able to keep all of the specs straight and I know enough to be able to sort out exactly what components can do what and how they will work together. But for the average consumer, I really believe the whole Blu-ray player situation is just too darn complicated.

The sad reality is that everybody knows you cannot trust the employees at a big box store to know anything, so having all of these various and, in some cases, incompatible specs only leads to one course of action: avoidance.

It's great to see Blu-ray player prices coming down. Kudos to Funai for managing to put together a lower cost platform and allowing it to be rebadged by all of these "second tier" brands. The Memorex and Philips players are identical and the Insignia, Magnavox and Sylvania players are identical to those as well, except they forego the 5.1 analogue audio outputs found on the Memorex/Philips.

But I still find the entire situation to be very problematic. In order to fix it, here's what I personally think needs to happen:

1) For the love of Pete, make BD-Live and internal decoding of ALL HD audio formats mandatory in each and every player!

Even if the average person never uses a single BD-Live feature and never uses a surround sound system capable of playing DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HD High Res or DTS-HD Master, what they WILL care about is that their player may not be able to handle all aspects of the Blu-ray format and since they don't understand any of it anyway, that scares them away!

Just mandate the each and every Blu-ray player is a COMPLETE Blu-ray player and can do everything the Blu-ray format can do! Done. Simple. Let's move on.

2) Don't offer 5.1 or 7.1 analogue audio outputs on any low cost players. Seeing all those plugs just confuses the average person. And when they see one player has what looks to them like a hundred plugs, but another one doesn't have them, well, there again...just confusion and avoidance. They don't understand, so they won't even bother!

Low cost player should all have BD-Live and all decode every single audio format internally. Then, you only put a HDMI, component video and optical connection on the back (and I guess a stereo analogue too). That's it!

If they're buying a new surround sound system, they can get one that can handle PCM audio via HDMI and that'll be that. If they have an older system or are buying a non HDMI surround sound system, they can use the optical. Done. Simple.

3) Any HD audio bitstream output or 5.1/7.1 analogue audio outputs should only be available on "higher end" players. The type that only people who know what they are doing will buy.

The average consumer really knows next to nothing about electronics. It needs to be a simple as possible. That means ONE and ONLY ONE player standard. And you need to literally be able to unbox the player, plug it into the wall, plug in ONE connection (HDMI) and be done! No other setup. No other options. Plug and play. That's all the average consumer can handle. And Lord knows, we can't count on the employees to know any more either!

All of the other options are great. But leave them only in "higher end" players for people who know what they're doing. Literally so it's easy to say, "if you have to ask, this is not the player for you."

 

[jliedeka]

I'm actually okay with a BD 1.1 player for a short to medium term purchase. I haven't heard of anybody who has found a good use for downloadable content yet. I consider it the moral equivalent of the extras on anime DVDs which are just trailers for other features.

Jim

 

[FirstReflection]

I completely agree that for any REAL purpose, Profile 1.1 is just fine.

But in the open market, it's just no good. Even start to mention there being more than one type of Blu-ray player and people's eyes start to glaze over. The average person just doesn't want to be bothered with those kinds of options. One player. One standard. That's what it needs to be for there to be any hope what-so-ever.

Just try to explain Bonus View vs. BD-Live. Most people, when buying electronics, can really only handle yes or no answers.

"Do I need it?"

"Well...that depends. Do you think you might want to download additional features from the internet?"

Too late. Already lost them when your first word was neither "yes" nor "no". "That depends" as an answer just sends average people into a panic and when they're in a panic, they're not listening.

So they ask, "Do I need it?"

"No"

"Well then why does this other player have it then?"

"Well...it's an extra feature so that you can download additional content if you want to."

"Well shouldn't I have it then?"

"That's really up to you. Do you..."

TOO LATE! Your answer needed to be either "yes" or "no".

See the trouble?

So if BD-Live is going to exist...just mandate that it be in every player! 99% of people are never going to connect an ethernet cable anyway and they're never ever going to ask about BD-Live ever again because they just don't care about it, understand it or want it. But make it an option and put a player that doesn't have it next to a player that does and it just leads to the messy series of questions that I've described up above!

 

[jliedeka]

I also think if BD Live is the answer, players should have Wi-Fi chips in them. It can't add that much to the cost. Especially if they were to use 802.11b which still has more bandwidth than most internet connections. That feature makes the PS3 an attractive proposition for me.

Then again, I'll probably end up getting a wireless bridge for my equipment rack or running a network connection.

Jim

 

[dobyblue]

There are many different features to DVD players too, yet that doesn't seem to bother consumers.

This one doesn't decode dts, but if your receiver does it...

This one has internal decoders and analog outputs, in case your receiver doesn't support "x" codec

For the average consumer, if they can put in a disc and it plays, that's just fine. They don't give a toss about dts-ma, BD-Live or any of that stuff; as long as they can put in a disc and it starts, that's all that matters.

The majority of DVD players have composite, S-Video, component, digital audio out, optical out and RCA analog stereo out, so suggesting that analog multi-channel outputs is somehow going to confuse the consumer, seems odd at best.

I think first reflection's opinions of the average consumer's shopping experience is severely warped. I don't know anyone that just wants to hear "yes" or "no" without knowing WHY.

 

[dobyblue]

1) For the love of Pete, make BD-Live and internal decoding of ALL HD audio formats mandatory in each and every player!

Why? DVD players don't have to do it. You say that analog audio outputs are confusing, so why would you want internal decoding of all codecs? That's incongruent.

Even if the average person never uses a single BD-Live feature and never uses a surround sound system capable of playing DD+, TrueHD, DTS-HD High Res or DTS-HD Master, what they WILL care about is that their player may not be able to handle all aspects of the Blu-ray format and since they don't understand any of it anyway, that scares them away!

Just mandate the each and every Blu-ray player is a COMPLETE Blu-ray player and can do everything the Blu-ray format can do! Done. Simple. Let's move on.

Again, it hasn't hurt DVD players. Do all DVD players support internal decoding of dts:es with 6.1 output, or dts 24/96 5.1?

2) Don't offer 5.1 or 7.1 analogue audio outputs on any low cost players. Seeing all those plugs just confuses the average person. And when they see one player has what looks to them like a hundred plugs, but another one doesn't have them, well, there again...just confusion and avoidance. They don't understand, so they won't even bother!

Low cost player should all have BD-Live and all decode every single audio format internally.

What's the point in decoding internally, without analog outputs?
I'm confused.

Then, you only put a HDMI, component video and optical connection on the back (and I guess a stereo analogue too). That's it!

Agree that skipping on the S-Video and composite would be a good idea, the receiver companies need to realize that nobody needs 6 composite and 6 S-video inputs, but if you have HDMI output what sort of people that don't understand anything at all (it's a wonder they found their local AV store in the first place the way you describe them) would already have an HDMI 1.1 repeater receiver, thus taking advantage of the internal decoding?

3) Any HD audio bitstream output or 5.1/7.1 analogue audio outputs should only be available on "higher end" players. The type that only people who know what they are doing will buy.

There are budget receivers now with dts-ma and TrueHD decoding, that can be had for $300-$400!! Why on Earth would you limit bitstream output of HD codecs to high end players? So I spend $299 on an Onkyo TX-SR605 but I have to buy a $2,000 Denon player to get bitstream? That's backasswards indeed.

The average consumer really knows next to nothing about electronics. It needs to be a simple as possible. That means ONE and ONLY ONE player standard. And you need to literally be able to unbox the player, plug it into the wall, plug in ONE connection (HDMI) and be done! No other setup. No other options. Plug and play. That's all the average consumer can handle. And Lord knows, we can't count on the employees to know any more either!

All of the other options are great. But leave them only in "higher end" players for people who know what they're doing. Literally so it's easy to say, "if you have to ask, this is not the player for you."

Again, this is just insanity. VHS players weren't like this, CD players aren't like this, DVD players aren't like this; now all of a sudden these bizarre stipulations are what will be required for consumers to buy into a new technology? I don't think so. There are millions of people out there that have HDTV's and they might want a budget player that can handle analog outputs. It seems pretty elitist to limit me to having to buy an expensive player when perhaps my level of appreciation is for a $300 receiver, a $1,400 Viera and a $200 Blu-ray player capable of sending dts-ma and TrueHD to the receiver.

 

[davidtwotrees]

I'm not sure I agree with all of firstreflection technical points, but as far as the general public goes I think he is spot on. Blu Ray aint exactly a household term. The general public isn't buzzing about it. Start talking about codecs and analog outs and dts-ma and people's eyes start rolling back in thier heads. It just doesn't matter to them. THEY DON'T CARE!
In this sense, first reflection is right, imho. Level the playing field at entry level with plug and play units. Will that screw some middle of the road technically saavy guys like doby blue? Maybe, but if it gets the format to work then I think it is a success. J6P needs to be on board for this thing to go, not just us Audioholics.....

 

[dobyblue]

I'm not sure I agree with all of firstreflection technical points, but as far as the general public goes I think he is spot on. Blu Ray aint exactly a household term. The general public isn't buzzing about it. Start talking about codecs and analog outs and dts-ma and people's eyes start rolling back in thier heads. It just doesn't matter to them. THEY DON'T CARE!
In this sense, first reflection is right, imho. Level the playing field at entry level with plug and play units. Will that screw some middle of the road technically saavy guys like doby blue? Maybe, but if it gets the format to work then I think it is a success. J6P needs to be on board for this thing to go, not just us Audioholics.....

Again, had this been the case with any other format I might agree.
But change the date to 1999 and your points were all relevant, and incorrect, for DVD also.

However, that didn't stop those DVD players from coming with analog outputs, optical outputs, component and S-Video outputs now, did it?

So, what I'm asking is, based on how successful DVD became, why should they do it differently this time around; because that's what you're suggesting they do.

 

[gliz]

all I want to do is watch movies on it, does it play blu-ray disks, yes! All the rest (IMHO is just technical foofaraw.

 

[FirstReflection]

You absolutely need internal decoding of all audio formats - without analogue audio outputs - because:

1) Any time there are two or more audio streams happening (ie. movie sound track + PIP commentary + button sounds) all of that needs to be decoded inside the player and mixed into a single audio stream output. Bitstream output of HD-Audio only allows you to hear the movie soundtrack. Any secondary audio streams are lost with bitstream output. IMO, bitstream output should not even be an option except for "higher end" players aimed at people who know and understand all of this stuff. For the mass market, low cost players, it all needs to be done inside the player so that there aren't any issues with secondary audio mixing.

2) There are many HDMI receivers that do not have their own HD-Audio decoders. They may be able to handle multi-channel PCM, but they cannot decode DD+, TrueHD or DTS-HD. For those types of receivers, again, the audio must be decoded inside the player.

So if you're thinking the only use for internal decoding is with analogue audio outputs, that really is not the case.

As to my opinion of the average electronics consumer: yes, my opinion is definitely very cynical (perhaps you could call it warped) I deal with the public all day, every day and so far as I can tell, they are all blithering idiots

Naw...in all seriousness - I know that there are some people capable of understanding reason and explanations, but there really are a heck of a lot who cannot process more than "yes" or "no". At least not right away. You can really see them get tense, their eyes widen and their blood pressure go up if you answer them "that depends". People really do like "yes or no" black or white type answers. It makes them feel comfortable and reassured. They will ask the same question 5 times in a row and all they really want is to hear "yes" or "no" five times in a row. Change your answer and they will think you are lying. That's why they asked 5 times, because so often, if they just keep asking, they'll eventually get a different answer. That all comes from the fact that most people ANSWERING questions have no clue themselves!

Basically, people are dumb. They lie. Everyone else knows this too, so no one trusts anything that anyone says. It's kind of sad. But that's what happens when there are no longer any consequences for bad behavior and doing things wrong.

 

[dobyblue]

You absolutely need internal decoding of all audio formats - without analogue audio outputs - because:

1) Any time there are two or more audio streams happening (ie. movie sound track + PIP commentary + button sounds) all of that needs to be decoded inside the player and mixed into a single audio stream output. Bitstream output of HD-Audio only allows you to hear the movie soundtrack. Any secondary audio streams are lost with bitstream output. IMO, bitstream output should not even be an option except for "higher end" players aimed at people who know and understand all of this stuff. For the mass market, low cost players, it all needs to be done inside the player so that there aren't any issues with secondary audio mixing.

You are incorrect about this, you're also incorrect about who is making the Memorex player. It's a design not seen in any player to date and it's not from Funai or Philips.

You cannot bitstream lossless audio with PIP using dts-ma or TrueHD. You CAN, however, bitstream to the lowest common denominator. When you're watching PIP featurettes the audio of the main film is far less important anyway. So, you can still use dts core or Dolby when you watch PIP featurettes. You don't suddenly lose audio, if you set to PIP then you just lost HD-Audio. As you've illustrated, the low-end consumer likely doesn't care about this, so why would it be important?

Because Blu-ray features an encoded Dolby Digital and dts core track with each dts-ma and TrueHD track, there is no way which a consumer can select PIP featurettes and not get audio. You make it sound like you do.

You're much more likely to WANT the HD-Audio when only watching the movie, than when you're watching special features.
There are plenty of people who enjoy the Dolby and dts features of their receivers, low end receivers like the Onkyo TX-SR605.

Why anyone thinks it's imperative and necessary to remove their functionality from those that are enjoying it on their $229 players is beyond me.

 

[itschris]

Does anyone really care about featurettes? I can't remember the last time I even looked at the "special" features section of any DVD.

 

[dobyblue]

In the thousands of DVD's I've watched, there have maybe been one or two "gag reels" and the odd featurette or commentary.

Kevin Smith movies I'll watch a lot of the extras. I watched the Hunter S. Thompson commentary on the Criterion edition of Fear and Loathing too.

I have the LOTR platinum editions - they represent 6 DVD's that have seen good use and 6 "extras" DVD's none of which have ever been out of their case.

 

[jostenmeat]

You absolutely need internal decoding of all audio formats - without analogue audio outputs - because:

1) Any time there are two or more audio streams happening

Uhh. DTS-MA actually comprises of two concurrent bitstreams. So, maybe some qualification is needed.

You're much more likely to WANT the HD-Audio when only watching the movie, than when you're watching special features.

+1

There are plenty of people who enjoy the Dolby and dts features of their receivers, low end receivers like the Onkyo TX-SR605.

Why anyone thinks it's imperative and necessary to remove their functionality from those that are enjoying it on their $229 players is beyond me.

+1

Does anyone really care about featurettes? I can't remember the last time I even looked at the "special" features section of any DVD.

+1

 

[hillbill]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but...

I consider myself far and away more knowledgable about electronics and home theater than the average Joe. I'm certainly not up to the level of most on this site but I am a definately home theater and Hi-Fi fan. I have a modest home theater system that is currently comprised of a Rear Projection 55" Mitsubishi HDTV (1080i) and a 5.1 Surround Sound System with a
Denon AVR-2106 Receiver. My dvd player is a Sony SACD player that as far as I know, doesn't upconvert anything.

Neither one of those will accept HDMI cables. If I were considering a Blu-Ray player. Is it going to blow me away vs my standard DVD player that I use through Component Cables and a Digital Audio Connection?

I can't get a straight answer. Certainly the average idiot at Best Buy and Circuit S^ity is no help. Heck half the time we know far more than they ever will. Even reading for the last year or whatever numerous magazines and such, I still don't know.

Is Blu-Ray going to be an improvement for me?

 

[aberkowitz]

I don't mean to hijack this thread but...

I consider myself far and away more knowledgable about electronics and home theater than the average Joe. I'm certainly not up to the level of most on this site but I am a definately home theater and Hi-Fi fan. I have a modest home theater system that is currently comprised of a Rear Projection 55" Mitsubishi HDTV (1080i) and a 5.1 Surround Sound System with a
Denon AVR-2106 Receiver. My dvd player is a Sony SACD player that as far as I know, doesn't upconvert anything.

Neither one of those will accept HDMI cables. If I were considering a Blu-Ray player. Is it going to blow me away vs my standard DVD player that I use through Component Cables and a Digital Audio Connection?

I can't get a straight answer. Certainly the average idiot at Best Buy and Circuit S^ity is no help. Heck half the time we know far more than they ever will. Even reading for the last year or whatever numerous magazines and such, I still don't know.

Is Blu-Ray going to be an improvement for me?

Simple answer- you're not going to know until you try it! To some people (me included) Blu Ray has knocked their socks off- at least on certain releases. The picture is an improvement and the sound quality is a HUGE improvement- I could ramble on about profile 2.0 and the menu system and extras/features- but really on picture and sound matter in the end .

My advice to you is to find an audioholic friend and go watch a reference movie or 3 at their house and evaluate it for yourself. Even better, bring your SD copy over first and compare the two. Another approach is to go out to BB and buy a player and try it out at home (check on restocking charges though- they can suck). Buy HDMI cables from monoprice (< $10) and rent a couple BDs from Netflix or your local Blockbuster. I personally don't think you'll ever go back to SD, but this way you can make an informed decision for yourself in a controlled environment- your home theater that's been customized to the way you like it.

 

[hillbill]

Simple answer- you're not going to know until you try it! Buy HDMI cables from monoprice (< $10)

Neither my TV or my receiver accept HDMI. The best I can do is Component. Will I notice a difference?

 

[aberkowitz]

Neither my TV or my receiver accept HDMI. The best I can do is Component. Will I notice a difference?

Oops- I guess I should read the post more carefully before responding!!

If that's the case, then I wouldn't recommend adding Blu Ray until you upgrade your TV. You're not going to get 1080p via component, and it's debatable as to whether or not you'd even notice the difference. SAve your money, and once you decide that a TV upgrade is in order look for deals on BD.

 

[hillbill]

Oops- I guess I should read the post more carefully before responding!!

If that's the case, then I wouldn't recommend adding Blu Ray until you upgrade your TV. You're not going to get 1080p via component, and it's debatable as to whether or not you'd even notice the difference. SAve your money, and once you decide that a TV upgrade is in order look for deals on BD.

Thank you for your opinion. That's what I've been thinking but wasn't real sure.