Calling Pioneer Elite Reciever Owners that play DVD-As and SACDs

[timetohunt]

If you have one of the Elite Pioneer AVRs that have been made over the past couple of years you prabubly are familiar with Stream Direct Applications:
DIRECT and PURE DIRECT

I understand what purpose these provide in general, however there are things that I don't fully understand.

1. If you look at your manuals, there is a chart in the back that tells you what you will hear with various signals when DIRECT or PURE DIRECT is applied.

Where the manual charts the multichannel signal formats, it indicates:
DVD-A (multi ch PCM) using DIRECT it says you hear 'Straight Decoding'
using PURE DIRECT is says you hear 'PCM DIRECT'

SACD (5.1 ch) using DIRECT is says you hear 'Straight Decoding'
using PURE DIRECT is says you hear 'SACD DIRECT'

Note Also: The manual describes PURE DIRECT as exactly this: "Analog and PCM sources are heard without any digital processing"

If my understanding is correct then PCM DIRECT simply means PCM to the AVR from the player with zero digital processing.

But here is where a few questions arise:
1. What then is 'Straight Decoding' for both sources as above?
2. Note that the description of PURE DIRECT specifically states "Analog and PCM' says nothing about DSD....... which begs the question...
Does SACD DIRECT mean DSD DIRECT ?

3. Possibly not entirely related to the above but on the Display of the AVR there is an indicator available that is exactly this:
DSD>PCM 'manual says lights during DSD to PCM conversion with SACDs'

Has anyone ever seen this light lit when playing your SACDs and under what conditions (connects, settings, etc)? I'm asking this because it might provide some insight into the other questions.

Thanks
t

 

[fmw]

SACD and DVD-A surround formats require signal processing. You need to steer the signals to the surround and center channels. If you turn off all of the signal processing you will only hear stereo, no matter what the input. Hope that helps.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

SACD and DVD-A surround formats require signal processing. You need to steer the signals to the surround and center channels. If you turn off all of the signal processing you will only hear stereo, no matter what the input. Hope that helps.

I think he means No Signal Processing in the AV Receiver.

With SACD, you want the Player to Send the DSD Signals (whether it's 2.0, 5.0, 5.1, etc.) straight to the DACs inside the Player to convert to Analog then send the Analog to the Receiver without Processing in the Receiver (stay in Analog form).

If the Display says "DSD>PCM", I think it means that it has been converted to PCM, instead of straight Analog. This defeats the whole purpose of DSD in the first place.

It would make you feel a little better if the display says "DSD>ANALOG".

But this is a question you will have to email/ask Pioneer and hopefully they will know what they are talking about, instead of some guy reading the manual back to you!

 

[fmw]

I think he means No Signal Processing in the AV Receiver.

With SACD, you want the Player to Send the DSD Signals (whether it's 2.0, 5.0, 5.1, etc.) straight to the DACs inside the Player to convert to Analog then send the Analog to the Receiver without Processing in the Receiver (stay in Analog form).

If you do that, whouldn't you get stereo if the receiver is in pure direct mode with the audio processor out of the circuit? What would steer the surround channels to the right amplifier?

In order to get surround sound you would need to take the receiver out of Pure Direct mode. I think that's what I said.

 

[Taifun]

In direct mode the receiver uses the signals it receives as-is. So when I have a DVD-A playing; my player processes the audio into the analog outs. I have 6 RCA cables connected from the player to the receiver for 5.1 If the source material say in an SACD is stereo or 3 channel, I get sound in stereo or LCR. If the material is in 5.1 I get LCR+surrounds and sub.

HTH

 

[Taifun]

If you do that, whouldn't you get stereo if the receiver is in pure direct mode with the audio processor out of the circuit? What would steer the surround channels to the right amplifier?

In order to get surround sound you would need to take the receiver out of Pure Direct mode. I think that's what I said.

The player is doing the processing and sending the signals to the appropiate channel using the analog inputs or sending PCM over HDMI (same idea)

 

[timetohunt]

If you do that, whouldn't you get stereo if the receiver is in pure direct mode with the audio processor out of the circuit? What would steer the surround channels to the right amplifier?

In order to get surround sound you would need to take the receiver out of Pure Direct mode. I think that's what I said.

Here is what I have found so far. I am about 95% sure this accurate.
Working toward 100%. I emailed Pioneer because the phone tech supports, while they are normally very good, could not shed perfect light on this topic.
I don't have a response yet, but I did uncover some very important parts of this.

fmw,
No, Pure Direct will not automatically take a DVD-A or SACD 5.1
signal and downmix it or change it to stereo.

Here is background that needs to be known in order to understand how DIRECT and PURE DIRECT work with Multi Channel DVD-A and SACD. The manual does not tell you this stuff.

First off - Stream Direct cannot be applied to MULTI CH IN as source. Try it once. These funtions wont be applied to anything connected to the Multi Channel Inputs because you are already in a "PURE" state with this connection. If you do try it, the MULTI CH IN just blinks back at you and the Stream Direct light will NOT go on.

So begs the question...... Why would the manual tell us how DIRECT and PURE DIRECT impact a multi channel DVD-A or SACD signal. Especially when these formats are almost always played through Multi Channel Inputs.

The answer is.....HDMI 1.3. Yep, either of the stream direct options would only apply to this situation if you had a disc player that supports HDMI 1.3 connected to the Reciever. NOTE: This will only apply to newer Pioneer Recievers that also support HDMI 1.3. HDMI 1.2 added multi channel support for DVD-A and HDMI 1.3 added SACD Multi Channel Support. As a matter of fact I think the Pioneer VSX-94-THX is the only Pio actually with HDMI 1.3.

For example even the next Pioneer AVR down the list, the VSX-92, there is a footnote in the chart indicating that 'Straight Decoding' is available for this model but not SACD DIRECT. And since that model can get PCM DIRECT from DVD-As, I would have to assume its equipped with HDMI 1.2+

So, in summary, the only way to apply DIRECT and PURE DIRECT to DVD-A and SACD is through new HDMI. And PURE DIRECT to SACD is only available for the VSX94 and probubly that new $7000 Pio receiver as well.

LATE EDIT**** I may be wrong about the VSX92 and other new Pios not having 1.3. It seems to indicate that multi ch is possible through HDMI on these receivers for SACD but I cant understand why the chart says only the VSX94 gets SACD DIRECT. The VSX94 and VSX92 use the same manual - if you have one of these check your manual P96, footnote b at the bottom. Actually I am pretty sure it something else and both do support HDMI 1.3.
I'll find out.

I'd have to think that not much out there even has HDMI 1.3 in it yet. I think my SACD player from 2006 only has HDMI 1.0. It wont even support Mult Ch DVD-As. Ofcourse I use the MULTI CH INs with this player.

There you have it folks. I'm proud of myself for sluething this out cuz it was driving my crazy. Stuff like gets to me until I understand it fully.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Man, I'm glad I don't have a receiver!

Too complicated. Too many terminologies. Too many options.

Sounds like you did a good job in your search.

So when you use the 5.1 Analog Inputs, you are essentially in straight analog mode? Then you are set. But if you were to use bass management, your receiver would then have to convert the Analog Back to PCM and then back to Analog again.

 

[MDS]

1. What then is 'Straight Decoding' for both sources as above?
2. Note that the description of PURE DIRECT specifically states "Analog and PCM' says nothing about DSD....... which begs the question...
Does SACD DIRECT mean DSD DIRECT ?

3. Possibly not entirely related to the above but on the Display of the AVR there is an indicator available that is exactly this:
DSD>PCM 'manual says lights during DSD to PCM conversion with SACDs'

Many different receivers have modes called Direct and Pure Direct and they always mean 'Direct to the amplifier with no processing' just as described in number two above. Pure Direct is just direct with the addition of turning off all video related circuitry as well. No processing means no bass management, no tone controls (or EQ), and no DSP of any kind.

So based on the general definition of the modes, I'd interpret the manual description in this way:
- 'Straight decoding' simply means that the format is processed in the normal way; ie decoded to separate channels, converted to analog and amplified.

- 'PCM Direct' would mean that the MLP format of the DVD-A is unpacked and the resulting PCM is sent. This would imply that the dvd players must be connected digitally and that would mean HDMI or DenonLink since s/pdif connections cannot handle multi-channel PCM.

- 'SACD Direct' would mean the raw DSD data is sent without first converting to PCM. That would also require an HDMI connection and I believe HDMI 1.2 was the version that first allowed DSD.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Many different receivers have modes called Direct and Pure Direct and they always mean 'Direct to the amplifier with no processing' just as described in number two above. Pure Direct is just direct with the addition of turning off all video related circuitry as well. No processing means no bass management, no tone controls (or EQ), and no DSP of any kind.

So based on the general definition of the modes, I'd interpret the manual description in this way:
- 'Straight decoding' simply means that the format is processed in the normal way; ie decoded to separate channels, converted to analog and amplified.

- 'PCM Direct' would mean that the MLP format of the DVD-A is unpacked and the resulting PCM is sent. This would imply that the dvd players must be connected digitally and that would mean HDMI or DenonLink since s/pdif connections cannot handle multi-channel PCM.

- 'SACD Direct' would mean the raw DSD data is sent without first converting to PCM. That would also require an HDMI connection and I believe HDMI 1.2 was the version that first allowed DSD.

Why would it require digital or HDMI?

You mean in addition to the Analog 5.1?

Player -> DVD-A -> MLP -> PCM -> Analog -> Player 5.1 Analog Output -> Receiver 5.1 Analog Input -> Amplifier section -> Speakers.

 

[timetohunt]

- 'PCM Direct' would mean that the MLP format of the DVD-A is unpacked and the resulting PCM is sent. This would imply that the dvd players must be connected digitally and that would mean HDMI or DenonLink since s/pdif connections cannot handle multi-channel PCM.

- 'SACD Direct' would mean the raw DSD data is sent without first converting to PCM. That would also require an HDMI connection and I believe HDMI 1.2 was the version that first allowed DSD.

Yes - I think that is right. But please explain that a bit further, I am trying to understand it.

What then do you get when listening with the player connected via analog inputs - is that also PCM and DSD Direct ?

In other words, with HDMI now able to handle multi channel PCM and DSD, how is that different from the analog input handling of those?

 

[MDS]

Why would it require digital or HDMI?

You mean in addition to the Analog 5.1?

Player -> DVD-A -> MLP -> PCM -> Analog -> Player 5.1 Analog Output -> Receiver 5.1 Analog Input -> Amplifier section -> Speakers.

You're right. I was thinking in terms of sending the bitsream and s/pdif will not support multi-channel PCM, hence the need for HDMI or the proprietary Denon Link interface.

Yes - I think that is right. But please explain that a bit further, I am trying to understand it.

What then do you get when listening with the player connected via analog inputs - is that also PCM and DSD Direct ?

In other words, with HDMI now able to handle multi channel PCM and DSD, how is that different from the analog input handling of those?

Using the analog inputs PCM or DSD has to be converted to analog by the DAC in the player. HDMI is digital, so multi-channel PCM or DSD could be sent as a bitstream to be decoded by the receiver. That was what I was thinking when I wrote what AcuDefTechGuy corrected me on in the quote above.

 

[timetohunt]

To clarify one of the open issues. HMDI 1.3 is supported by both the VSX94 and the VSX92, and likely some other Pio Elites that are fairly new.

As for why the VSX94 outputs SACD DIRECT in 'Pure Direct' and the VSX92 is 'straight decoding' (as per P96 footnote b at the bottom) - is the processor stage of the 94 is different from the 92. This was the response from Pioneer.

All the other stuff I stated is accurate - if you use Direct or Pure Direct on Multi Channel DVD-A or SACD sources they are indeed expecting that it is being sent by a newer version of HDMI.

One thing for sure, I have bugged the pioneer tech force to the point of them knowing the sound of my voice. I need to give them a break. Meanwhile I am squeezing this VSX94 for all its got.... I am listening to a killer radio station out of Algiers right now, all with my main system, via the 94's internet capability. What a toy this is.