Noobie Looking to Build First Audiophile Speaker System

S

Suds

Junior Audioholic
Hey there all, how's it going? Noobie here who is moving from the Hi-Fi Headphone world to the Hi-Fi Speaker world(Kind of, still keeping a few cans). I'm hoping to gain some insight on where best to spend my money and make the best sounding setup for my computer, possible. My budget is $800 Max, give or take a few bucks. Here is what I've got so far:

1) Grab a Keces DA-151 USB DAC
2) Grab a Pioneer A-35R for the Amp
3) Grab either a PSB B25

This is the setup I have come up with on my own, which I am sure isn't the best bang for the buck, so I'm hoping for opinions here. This rig is going to be used for close listening at my computer, mainly music, but I will be playing games and watching movies with it as well. Music choice is Prog Rock/Metal mainly, but I listen to all genres.

I would love some advice from experienced Audioholics. Thanks for looking. :)
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Hey there all, how's it going? Noobie here who is moving from the Hi-Fi Headphone world to the Hi-Fi Speaker world(Kind of, still keeping a few cans). I'm hoping to gain some insight on where best to spend my money and make the best sounding setup for my computer, possible. My budget is $800 Max, give or take a few bucks. Here is what I've got so far:

1) Grab a Keces DA-151 USB DAC
2) Grab a Pioneer A-35R for the Amp
3) Grab either a PSB B25

This is the setup I have come up with on my own, which I am sure isn't the best bang for the buck, so I'm hoping for opinions here. This rig is going to be used for close listening at my computer, mainly music, but I will be playing games and watching movies with it as well. Music choice is Prog Rock/Metal mainly, but I listen to all genres.

I would love some advice from experienced Audioholics. Thanks for looking. :)
Definitely not the best that can be done for that budget. I'll be glad to assist - but look up my posting history first. I do not offer the standard run of the mill opinions; mine are based on in depth knowledge of loudspeaker engineering and the perceptual research that is correlated with measured parameters of said devices. If you look up my posting history and like what you see - than ask me to give my advice - but only after satisfying that qualification. I have also made posts on this subject before, that you can find in searches.

-Chris
 
S

Suds

Junior Audioholic
I've gone through quite a few of your posts regarding the same subject as mine, and I have to say I prefer your recommendations over opinions. I'm not able to go out and listen to the speakers before I purchase them. With your recommendations, I can go with the Speakers or Amp that is technically superior, which is the best I can do short of actually hearing them. :)

BTW, I'd love to hear your advice. :p
 
S

Suds

Junior Audioholic
I didn't see an Edit box, hope I didn't miss it.

Just a curiosity question. Will I notice a large audible difference between a setup consisting of DAC+Amp+Speakers(Whatever is recommended) and a setup consisting of DAC+Speaker w/ Built in Amp(Audio Engine A5 or Swan M200MkII)? If there isn't a large difference, it'd be nice to keep the setup simple and possibly cheaper. :)
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I've gone through quite a few of your posts regarding the same subject as mine, and I have to say I prefer your recommendations over opinions. I'm not able to go out and listen to the speakers before I purchase them. With your recommendations, I can go with the Speakers or Amp that is technically superior, which is the best I can do short of actually hearing them. :)

BTW, I'd love to hear your advice. :p
The following are my standing recommendations to achieve the highest possible quality for the lowest possible price. Make no mistake: you can achieve very high fidelity(relative to what one typically expects, and for far less money than spent on average to achieve it) with the following advice.

Okay, let's realize, the two most important things are the acoustics and the speakers.

With this in mind, and based on minimum price spendable:

(1) Behringer B203P speakers (1 pair=$130)
(2) GIK Acoustics 2' x 4' x 4" thick panels; at least two of them. (1 pair=130)

The above are the most specific things; each represents the best value I know of in it's range. Both are critical. You need to put at least 2 of these thick broadband absorption panels on the wall behind the computer; otherwise severe midbass nulls/peaks will occur. I have measured/analyzed/inspected the speakers; there is no competitor to it that I know of in existance, in it's price range. You need to do some very basic mods to the speaker to optimize it. These are things that are common flaws overlooked on mass market speakers such as: a specific air leak, a part that rattles/vibrates(fixed with some superglue) and replacement of the stock acoustic stuffing with a high grade material with better absorption characteristics(which I can even ship to you for raw cost plus actual shipping if you are in USA).

(3) Add a single subwoofer; the speaker rolls off under 75Hz. If you intend to use the speakers in mid or far field for critical listening instead of nearfield; you need to use stereo subwoofers - one near each speaker - for ideal seamless integration. The best value, according to customers, almost unopposed, from what I have read on various forums, are the Dayton powered subs, 10"($130 each) or 12"($150 each). www.partsexpress.com

If you can spend more on better subs, fine. But you need to move to about 2x the price to really get subs that are appreciably better; and that is still limited to a very select few very high value units until you get to an even higher price class.

(4) Onkyo SR505 receiver is recommended.($150-$200 each). You can use this as an integrated amp. Very importantly: it has a variable active xover to limit LF to the main speakes and limit HF to the subwoofers, to help integrate them properly. If you want to use number 5 option below, any stand alone amp with enough power is sufficient, since no. 5 option is also a powerful crossover. If you want to still use stand alone amp, but want to cheap out on the xover, see no. 6.

(5) Optional, but incredibly superb in optimizing sound to your preference and further integrating the mains and subwoofers perfectly: Behringer DCX2496($275). A very powerful DSP device that you can link to your computer w/serial cable for GUI control if so desired. This device is magnitudes more sophisticated than a plug-in EQ for you media player. This device does not distort when you push up bands high, and it has far greater precision and flexibility in manipulating the signal. It is also a precision crossover that will be better than the one built into the Onkyo receiver; or any receiver for that matter. You would use the receiver's direct in amp inputs if you use the DCX. You would need to place a pre-amp before the DCX. Or, use your computer sound card volume control.

(6) Optional, and higher quality and superior to most receiver xovers, is a Behringer CX2310($90 each) 2 way stereo 4th order active crossover. This is an analogue unit; and of very high quality, despite it's low cost. You can use any stand alone amplifier w/enough power to drive the speakers, by using this xover. You will need to use a pre-amp before the xover, or use the sound card volume control.

IMPORTANT NOTE: If you sit the speakers on your computer desk, be certain to use some device to raise the tweeters to your ear level, or at least angle the speakers back to fire to your ears in a direct path. Also, it is very important that you use a soft foam or other effective de-coupling mechanism to prevent the speaker from vibrating your desk. The desk will act as a large radiation panel of sound, causing timbre distortion/coloration of the signal.

-Chris
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I didn't see an Edit box, hope I didn't miss it.

Just a curiosity question. Will I notice a large audible difference between a setup consisting of DAC+Amp+Speakers(Whatever is recommended) and a setup consisting of DAC+Speaker w/ Built in Amp(Audio Engine A5 or Swan M200MkII)? If there isn't a large difference, it'd be nice to keep the setup simple and possibly cheaper. :)
I will not recommend either of those speakers; as I do not believe they can compare with the one I have recommended, based on it's exceptional measured performance vs. price vs. known critical perceptual data as it relates to measured parameters.

As for a DAC; use any good unit you have access to. A transparent DAC does not have to be expensive. In fact, it would be difficult to pick a bad DAC these days.

-Chris
 
S

Suds

Junior Audioholic
(1) Behringer B203P speakers (1 pair=$130)
Done.

(2) GIK Acoustics 2' x 4' x 4" thick panels; at least two of them. (1 pair=130)
Slight problem here. My desk won't be able to accommodate 2 of them. It is two separate pieces, the bottom where everything sits and the top which consists of cabinets(Custom made by my dad and myself). I could grab one of them and hand it horizontally, if that would work(Heigh being 2 feet, width 4 feet).

The above are the most specific things; each represents the best value I know of in it's range. Both are critical. You need to put at least 2 of these thick broadband absorption panels on the wall behind the computer; otherwise severe midbass nulls/peaks will occur. I have measured/analyzed/inspected the speakers; there is no competitor to it that I know of in existance, in it's price range. You need to do some very basic mods to the speaker to optimize it. These are things that are common flaws overlooked on mass market speakers such as: a specific air leak, a part that rattles/vibrates(fixed with some superglue) and replacement of the stock acoustic stuffing with a high grade material with better absorption characteristics(which I can even ship to you for raw cost plus actual shipping if you are in USA).
If you could specify the mods that are most commonly done to them, I would have to problem doing them. And depending on the prices of the high grade acoustic material, I might take you up on your offer. ;)

(3) Add a single subwoofer; the speaker rolls off under 75Hz. If you intend to use the speakers in mid or far field for critical listening instead of nearfield; you need to use stereo subwoofers - one near each speaker - for ideal seamless integration. The best value, according to customers, almost unopposed, from what I have read on various forums, are the Dayton powered subs, 10"($130 each) or 12"($150 each).
I'll be listening to these quite close as they will be on my desk, so I should only need 1 Subwoofer correct? I'm in a medium to small room as well.

(4) Onkyo SR505 receiver is recommended.($150-$200 each). You can use this as an integrated amp. Very importantly: it has a variable active xover to limit LF to the main speakes and limit HF to the subwoofers, to help integrate them properly. If you want to use number 5 option below, any stand alone amp with enough power is sufficient, since no. 5 option is also a powerful crossover. If you want to still use stand alone amp, but want to cheap out on the xover, see no. 6.
I think I'll go with this option as it seems to be the simplest and simple is what I would prefer for my desk. I don't mind not being able to completely customize ever facet of the music I am listening to. :p One thing though. That receiver seems a bit much(with all the extra options and whatnot). Is there anything that is simpler, maybe better quality because of less inputs that would also be a good choice? I'm fine with this receiver, just trying to review all options.

IMPORTANT NOTE: If you sit the speakers on your computer desk, be certain to use some device to raise the tweeters to your ear level, or at least angle the speakers back to fire to your ears in a direct path. Also, it is very important that you use a soft foam or other effective de-coupling mechanism to prevent the speaker from vibrating your desk. The desk will act as a large radiation panel of sound, causing timbre distortion/coloration of the signal.
What soft foam would you recommend for de-coupling? These will be sitting on my desk, so I will need it. The tweeters should already be close to ear level as well.

Also, thank you for the incredibly detailed post. It is much appreciated. :)

-Will

Edit: As for the DAC, I have a Zero DAC/HP Amp/Pre-Amp that I could use. Would using it as a pre-amp do anything to the SQ?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Slight problem here. My desk won't be able to accommodate 2 of them. It is two separate pieces, the bottom where everything sits and the top which consists of cabinets(Custom made by my dad and myself). I could grab one of them and hand it horizontally, if that would work(Heigh being 2 feet, width 4 feet).
Ah, so you are the DIY type? Get me a pic of the desk and mark where the speakers would sit. It is very possible, you can make some DIY treatments to fit in the rear recesses of the desk top piece. You could easily make these with 1/4" ply for the outer frames, about 2" deep minimium(but you do need 4" to combat upper bass frequencies), and use corner triangles to give the frame strength. Pull some cloth over the frame that matches the wood finish/color and make the treatments the exact size of the recesses on the desk and they would not even be noticeable.


If you could specify the mods that are most commonly done to them, I would have to problem doing them. And depending on the prices of the high grade acoustic material, I might take you up on your offer. ;)
1) Remove tweeter from the front waveguide. Place rope caulk or similar material in very thin flattened out pieces on the plastic ring and plastic supports that the tweeter rests against on the waveguide. This will stop the air leak at this point(which causes noise at high SPL due to the air rushing through the small cracks).

2) Use silicone sealant and run it around the back of the tweeter motor where it meets the tweeter face plate. Apply liberally and include the base of the electric tabs. Do not remove tweeter from it's faceplate. This fixes another air leak.

3) Check the rubber gasket where the waveguide front attaches around the tweeter cutout. Make sure the gasket shows signs of being pressed down all around this area - there may be a tiny place at the upper top over the tweeter cutout hole where it does not contact. If it does not, move the gasket material/shift it so that it does make contact with the waveguide.

4) Use super glue liquid(not gel) and liberally apply it to the midbass magnetic shield's seam where it connects to the motor; apply it all the way around. This gap is only pressed together, and as such, will vibrate/buzz with certain music. The thin super glue will run into the seam and when it hardens, it will prevent the buzz.

5) Remove all stock acoustic absorption material. Replace with high grade high density fiberglass board or rock wool board(4-8lbs/ft^3 density). Use 4" on rear wall, 2" on other walls and 4" on bottom. Place a loosely woven cloth over the fiberglass/rockwool to prevent fibers from coming out the ports. Be sure to no place fiberglass directly against ports.

6) OPTIONAL MODS: Use a hammer and block of wood and knock out the ports. After you remove them use black silicone and small piece of wood from behind the port openings and block/seal them. Now, apply Dynamat or similar material to all inner walls. You do this before installing the new acoustic absorption material. Use a thickness equal to 1/3 the wall thickness minimum. That is, the walls are 3/4" thick; so you will use layers of Dynamat or similar until you build up to a minimum of 1/4" thick. Do not go beyond 1/2" thick. After 1/2", you will no longer get much more dampening. For optimum dampening, you can use what is called a constrained layer. In this case, apply 1/8" thick Dynamat or similar to walls. Now use an appropriate adhesive and apply 1/2" concrete board to the Dynamat. This creates two stiff plates(concrete board and exterior MDF) that will cause greater molecular excitation in the Dynamat, as a result of sheering type forces. You can go further and use some 5/8" all thread rod and cut it about 1/4" short of the concrete board to concrete board contact points across the enclosure. Use nuts on both ends of the rod. You will use the nuts to take up the slack and grab the inner walls. Use peramanent locktite on the threads to lock the nuts(you will have a few minutes open time) and use high quality metal epoxy to adhere the nuts to the concrete board. If you use the all thread bracing technique in more than one axis, try to have the all thread rods intersect with each other and use more of the metal epoxy to bind them in the middle of the cabinet; this will make the bracing stronger.


I'll be listening to these quite close as they will be on my desk, so I should only need 1 Subwoofer correct? I'm in a medium to small room as well.
Yes, as long as the subwoofer will be within 3'-4' of both speakers, it will integrate well. If you can not get it this close to both, then stereo subs will work better at the crossover points optimal for this particular bookshelf speaker.


I think I'll go with this option as it seems to be the simplest and simple is what I would prefer for my desk. I don't mind not being able to completely customize ever facet of the music I am listening to. :p One thing though. That receiver seems a bit much(with all the extra options and whatnot). Is there anything that is simpler, maybe better quality because of less inputs that would also be a good choice? I'm fine with this receiver, just trying to review all options.
The receiver is the simplest option, because it has built in crossover; you will otherwise have to use external crossover(while being even better, does add complexity and parts and connections). You also have 5 discrete channels instead of just 2 available, if you want to later expand to full surround sound.


What soft foam would you recommend for de-coupling? These will be sitting on my desk, so I will need it. The tweeters should already be close to ear level as well.
Wal-Marts sells some mats intended to put on the floor to stand on in one place for a long time. It is a semi-dense foam that makes a good cushion material and is somewhat durable. It is about 1/4" thick material. They sell for about 10-12 bucks each, last time I bought one. Cut 1" squares and use them for the corners of the speakers. Use multiples and glue them together to make them thick, and use the thick ones on the front of the speaker if you need to tilt it up at a slight angle.

I can ship you the high grade stuffing for cost: about 3 bucks for enough with some to spare for the Behringer speakers. Shipping is around 6-10 bucks. So, 13 bucks worst case total.


Edit: As for the DAC, I have a Zero DAC/HP Amp/Pre-Amp that I could use. Would using it as a pre-amp do anything to the SQ?
Use it as a pre-amp if that is convenient. If not, the Onkyo will work fine as a pre-amp if you are using it's built in active crossover, which you should.

-Chris
 
S

Suds

Junior Audioholic
It depends on what I'm doing, but I do like to DIY. Especially my desk, I was able to build it to my liking. I might give DIY Treatments a try. :)

Thank you for specifying the mods, much appreciated. :)

Yes, the Sub Woofer will be place under my desk, but still within 3'-4' of both speakers.

As for pads to decouple, I am thinking about MoPads. They will decouple the speakers from the desk, and also allow me to angle the slightly higher towards my ears. Might be a little expensive, but they look nice as well.

Again, thank you for the great advice WmAx. I'm going to make a post in the Sub Woofer forum regarding a sub woofer for my needs(Made a drawing and everything :D).
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
A new recommendation(as I have just recently measured/verified performance) is the KRK ROKIT 5 2 way 5" mini monitor. If space is at a premium, this self-powered unit is a very good device for near field use. It extends down to about 60-65Hz, so you will need to still use a subwoofer and active crossover to use it ideally. It will not be as nice as the Behringer B2030P set-up, however. But it is simpler/smaller.

-Chris
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
A new recommendation(as I have just recently measured/verified performance) is the KRK ROKIT 5 2 way 5" mini monitor. If space is at a premium, this self-powered unit is a very good device for near field use. It extends down to about 60-65Hz, so you will need to still use a subwoofer and active crossover to use it ideally. It will not be as nice as the Behringer B2030P set-up, however. But it is simpler/smaller.

-Chris
Is it possible the ROKIT 5 G2 is better? I suppose you would have to test it to know right?;)
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
The KRKs rock, no pun intended. Man, I was impressed with them at Guitar Center, but as noted, they are more geared towards near field.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Is it possible the ROKIT 5 G2 is better? I suppose you would have to test it to know right?;)
I have to have them to test before I can make such a recommendation.

At $200/pair, and with better performance than the AudioEngine 2; there is no way I can avoid recommending the KRK Rokit 5 at this point for computer speakers. The fit and finish, btw, which I don't usually comment on, is 1st rate for a studio monitor. They look and feel like they should cost $500-$600/pair. The Behringer is no where near the cosmetic level of these.

-Chris
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I have to have them to test before I can make such a recommendation.

At $200/pair, and with better performance than the AudioEngine 2; there is no way I can avoid recommending the KRK Rokit 5 at this point for computer speakers. The fit and finish, btw, which I don't usually comment on, is 1st rate for a studio monitor. They look and feel like they should cost $500-$600/pair. The Behringer is no where near the cosmetic level of these.

-Chris
The list on the KRKs was $600.:D
 
C

Cthulhu

Audioholic Intern
I was going to PM this to WMAX directly but I have been defeated by the PM limit until a post count of 5 has been achieved. GO GO POST count.

So I was looking for the Behringer speakers recommended earlier in this thread - the B203Ps, which don't appear to exist.

I can find B2030P, which again, I would link to if this website didn't hate new users. But I cannot find them for sale in australia.

I can find B2030P

behringer .com. au/B2030P/index.cfm?lang=ENG

Are these the same speaker?

Also due to the 'Being Australian' Tax, the B2030P's are twice their US street price and about half the list price of the KRK rokkits - are they still good value at that relative pricing to the KRKs?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I was going to PM this to WMAX directly but I have been defeated by the PM limit until a post count of 5 has been achieved. GO GO POST count.

So I was looking for the Behringer speakers recommended earlier in this thread - the B203Ps, which don't appear to exist.

I can find B2030P, which again, I would link to if this website didn't hate new users. But I cannot find them for sale in australia.
Yes, the right model is the B2030P.



Also due to the 'Being Australian' Tax, the B2030P's are twice their US street price and about half the list price of the KRK rokkits - are they still good value at that relative pricing to the KRKs?
These two speakers(KRK ROKIT 5 and Behringer B2030P) have different ideal applications. The ROKIT is ideal for a compact size all in one(amp included in speakers) speaker for computer near field use. It has very good LF extension also, so long as it's only used at lower SPL levels.

The Behringer is potentially better, but it needs some minor mods as I have covered in other threads, and it needs a subwoofer, as it does not have very effective LF extension. It also is best for mid-field or far-field use in a room, due to it's extremely linear and flat off axis response characteristics. But, when you consider an amp, subwoofer, etc.; it will cost much more than the ROKIT 5 KRK for near field computer use.

-Chris
 
C

Cthulhu

Audioholic Intern
Yes, the right model is the B2030P.

These two speakers(KRK ROKIT 5 and Behringer B2030P) have different ideal applications. The ROKIT is ideal for a compact size all in one(amp included in speakers) speaker for computer near field use. It has very good LF extension also, so long as it's only used at lower SPL levels.

The Behringer is potentially better, but it needs some minor mods as I have covered in other threads, and it needs a subwoofer, as it does not have very effective LF extension. It also is best for mid-field or far-field use in a room, due to it's extremely linear and flat off axis response characteristics. But, when you consider an amp, subwoofer, etc.; it will cost much more than the ROKIT 5 KRK for near field computer use.

-Chris
Thanks for the inputs.

Okay, I'm going to have to calculate this more carefully then - the sub in particular has the potential to be quite expensive in Australia due to 'Australia Tax' - or in this case Australian ghettoisation, I cannot find any subs for cheap parts express dayton style in Oz.
 

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