Transformers Blu-ray with PCM & TrueHD

[AcuDefTechGuy]

http://www.blu-ray.com/news/?id=1335

 

[j_garcia]

You can buy it as an import already from the UK; it has been out for months.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You can buy it as an import already from the UK; it has been out for months.

I don't know about those imports.

I heard the SQ and PQ aren't as good as the US official release.

I bought "Brotherhood of The Wolf" HDDVD DTS-MA UK Import, and the PQ & SQ aren't very impressive. I can't even say the PQ/SQ are any better than the SD DVD version. IMO, I think the SD DVD version actually had better SQ - better bass. I feel very cheated. So after this experience, I don't think I will ever buy another import version of anything.

 

[Jack Hammer]

I don't think the problem is with it being an import. Like all discs, some are well transfered and some aren't. There are plenty of US releases with poor pq & sq. I'd just research the specific disc before buying, that goes for homegrown releases too.

Jack

 

[GlocksRock]

Nice, but why both TrueHD and PCM? Seems like a waste of disc space to me.

 

[j_garcia]

Nice, but why both TrueHD and PCM? Seems like a waste of disc space to me.

Well at least they can FIT it now

I've heard of a few discs from overseas being of poor quality, such as The Crow, but I haven't seen a review of Transformers. I have heard good things about some import discs, though in general the import price is not really worth it at this point.

 

[tn001d]

Nice, but why both TrueHD and PCM? Seems like a waste of disc space to me.

I like to remind everyone that even though the new Blu-ray version of Transformers has the lossless audio codecs, it doesnt mean that it will sound better than the HD-DVD release.

I remember reading a review of a Blu-ray (cant remember which one) in which the author mentioned that the sound was no better with Dolby TrueHD when compared to the DVD's DTS version.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I like to remind everyone that even though the new Blu-ray version of Transformers has the lossless audio codecs, it doesnt mean that it will sound better than the HD-DVD release.

I remember reading a review of a Blu-ray (cant remember which one) in which the author mentioned that the sound was no better with Dolby TrueHD when compared to the DVD's DTS version.

Well, that is true, but we can still HOPE.

With both TrueHD & PCM Uncompressed Audio, there is absolutely no excuse this time!

"300" BD is another movie that had both PCM & TrueHD.

 

[dobyblue]

There will definitley be scenes in this movie that sound better than the DD+ mix.

The dts comments were comparing a 5.1 to a 6.1 and it wasn't the fidelity, but rather the spaciality of the mix that was being commented on.

Plus, this is a new video transfer supervised by Michael Bay. It will be the definitive version of Transformers for sure.

 

[allargon]

There will definitley be scenes in this movie that sound better than the DD+ mix.

The dts comments were comparing a 5.1 to a 6.1 and it wasn't the fidelity, but rather the spaciality of the mix that was being commented on.

Plus, this is a new video transfer supervised by Michael Bay. It will be the definitive version of Transformers for sure.

The first reviews are up. The higher bitrates didn't do diddly squat for the video according to the early reviews.

Here's High Def Disc news (never heard of them).

http://www.highdefdiscnews.com/?p=3043

So far, Joe Whip says the audio is a heckuva an improvement. He said the same about Beowulf. I look forward to seeing what Ralph Potts and HighDefDigest (provided it's not Peter Bracke) have to say.

BTW, there's no PCM. Those of you w/ crappy profile 1.0 players that don't bitstream or internally decode Dolby TrueHD are out of luck.

http://web.mac.com/jawhip/iWeb/HDTV Politico/Blog/1CFD9527-0896-4DA4-8524-3D1249F5241F.html

The Dolby Digital Plus track is outstanding.
(snip)
I can’t imagine how this disc could have sounded any better with True HD. I guess we may never know but after hearing this disc, I was certainly not longing to find out. The audio is that good. This is reference audio folks.

Guess what folks, I was WRONG. The lossless Dolby True HD track here smashes the Dolby Digital Plus track in every way imaginable. If the HD-DVD track rates a 5, the Dolby True HD track rates a 7. To start off, lets look at the bass response. The bass here is much richer and fuller than that on the HD DVD release. The Blu-Ray release rocks the house. I also found the dynamics on the BD release to best the HD DVD release by a wide margin as well. This is a reference audio mix if I ever heard one. I also found the imaging and channel separation to be better giving the audio a much deeper image, allowing you to hear into the sound field much further than the HD DVD release which sounds a tad flatter in comparison. FInally, the audio on the BD disc is much smoother and open without even the trace of hardness, even much more so than the HD DVD. You can really crank this baby up without any issue of listener fatigue. Hearing loss? Well, that is another story.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The first reviews are up. The higher bitrates didn't do diddly squat for the video according to the early reviews.

Here's High Def Disc news (never heard of them).

http://www.highdefdiscnews.com/?p=3043

So far, Joe Whip says the audio is a heckuva an improvement. He said the same about Beowulf. I look forward to seeing what Ralph Potts and HighDefDigest (provided it's not Peter Bracke) have to say.

BTW, there's no PCM. Those of you w/ crappy profile 1.0 players that don't bitstream or internally decode Dolby TrueHD are out of luck.

http://web.mac.com/jawhip/iWeb/HDTV Politico/Blog/1CFD9527-0896-4DA4-8524-3D1249F5241F.html

Well, you know I'll definitely buy the BD Transformers and compare it to the HD DVD version. I sure hope it blows away the HD DVD version, which I thought sucked.

 

[j_garcia]

It was reviewed at HDD yesterday - it got a 4 1/2. They said the video looks pretty much identical but the TrueHD track is an improvement.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Well, sometimes I just don't know about these reviews. Like how they LOVED the Audio (5 stars) on Transformers HD DVD, and I would give it 2 stars. And some totally bash the PQ of Dark City BD (2.5/5), and I would give it 4.5/5.

 

[allargon]

Well, you know I'll definitely buy the BD Transformers and compare it to the HD DVD version. I sure hope it blows away the HD DVD version, which I thought sucked.

Were you the one who complained about the compression on the disc? I was new to Audioholics at the time and didn't want to publicly disagree with an established member. Honestly, I think your setup (specifically your HD DVD player config) was the problem.

Besides turning Dynamic Range Compression to off (If you read this site, you should have this off on every last DVD, Blu-Ray and HD DVD player you own!), you should also set your SPDIF to PCM. (HDMI should be to Auto.) On the A20, this will cause your AVR to think you're sending 96Hz data when in fact you're only sending (most likely 48), but that's okay.

From Josh Z of HDD: http://forums.highdefdigest.com/757478-post483.html

Make sure your S/PDIF setting is also at "PCM", whether you use the S/PDIF output or not. The audio decoder in the XA2 has a bug and will virtually eliminate bass through any other output if that setting is left at "Bitstream".

If that doesn't help, turn all of your speakers to "Small" in the XA2 menu. Doesn't matter if you want to do your calibrations externally. This is another bug in the XA2. It applies dynamic range compression at other speaker sizes, and it's more noticeable on some discs than others.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Were you the one who complained about the compression on the disc? I was new to Audioholics at the time and didn't want to publicly disagree with an established member. Honestly, I think your setup (specifically your HD DVD player config) was the problem.

Besides turning Dynamic Range Compression to off (If you read this site, you should have this off on every last DVD, Blu-Ray and HD DVD player you own!), you should also set your SPDIF to PCM. (HDMI should be to Auto.) On the A20, this will cause your AVR to think you're sending 96Hz data when in fact you're only sending (most likely 48), but that's okay.

From Josh Z of HDD: http://forums.highdefdigest.com/757478-post483.html

The audio on my HD DVD is on PCM and HDMI to Auto. Batman Begins and Bourne Ultimatum sounded absolutely perfect and outstanding on this same player. So it's not the setting or player. It's the disc itself.

I believe Gene (president of AH) had the same issue on his HD DVD player with Transformers.

 

[allargon]

The audio on my HD DVD is on PCM and HDMI to Auto. Batman Begins and Bourne Ultimatum sounded absolutely perfect and outstanding on this same player. So it's not the setting or player. It's the disc itself.

I believe Gene (president of AH) had the same issue on his HD DVD player with Transformers.

Hmm... Tom A. said his sounded fine.

No worries...

 

[allargon]

Well, you know I'll definitely buy the BD Transformers and compare it to the HD DVD version. I sure hope it blows away the HD DVD version, which I thought sucked.

I'm still convinced there was something amiss with your setup. DD+ is a step down from Dolby TrueHD/PCM/DTS-HD MA. However, i's not night and day. Even Blu-Ray vs. well-upconverted (no Panny standalones! ) DVD isn't night and day visually.

Anyhoo, someone (Ralph Potts) finally articulated the differences in a comprehensible manner.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=14468742

I ran a few comparisons between the Blu-ray Disc and the HD DVD. Upon comparing the quality of the video I saw no discernible difference between the two. I compared the lossy Dolby Digital Plus and Lossless Dolby TrueHD sound tracks. After level matching I ran all of the aforementioned sequences. I powered up both players and cued up the beginning of each sequence. I watched them one at a time switching back and forth. There have been reports (two from writers whose opinions I respect) of a 6 to 10 decibel increase in volume on the TrueHD mix. I did not experience that in my evaluation/comparison. What I did notice was an improvement in low frequency reproduction. It seems as though the minor attenuation (for lack of a better word) of the bass present on the HD DVD is no longer present. The bass has better tactility and improved depth which can be felt not just in the room but within the body as well. The improvement here seems to be related to the deeper bass frequencies and is most appreciable in the scenes in the film that contain lower bass content. That is not strictly the case though. An example would be in chapter 18 where the cryogenic freezing apparatus where Megatron is being held has begun to fail. There is an alarm that begins to sound and the scene switches the control room. There is a low bass tone that accompanies that transition before the scene switches again. It was detectable on the HD DVD but on the Blu-ray Disc it could be felt as wave of punchy low bass energy. The beginning of chapter 2 (mentioned earlier) definitely had a more distinct and powerful low bass presence than on the HD DVD. I ran these scenes along with the others mentioned earlier in this review 3 times each and double checked to ensure that output levels were the same. I also ran these same scenes using the PS3 rather than bit streaming the audio from my Panasonic and Samsung players and the results were the same. I am satisfied that the Blu-ray version of Transformers does in fact offer an improvement in this area over the HD DVD. I want to be clear that the low frequency effects on the HD DVD are quite good and the difference here is not night and day but is certainly noticeable. As far as any appreciable differences in the overall sound quality I would say that if present they are minimal.

Now, addressing Gene's compression comments, he might have a point. The DD+ on the HD DVD is 1.5 Mbps (which is better than Warner's DD/DD+ 640 Kbps encodes and SD DVD's typical 448 Kbps maximum). According to Ralph, the average audio bitrate on the Dolby TrueHD track is 4.1 Mbps! (Imagine how much of a bitrate and space ceiling that would be for PCM. Would PCM even fit within the 8 Mbs ceiling of Blu-Ray?)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I'm still convinced there was something amiss with your setup.

There is not much to the setup.

You have the Audio Option - Bitstream or PCM.

I don't even have a receiver or pre-pro, so I have no choice but to use PCM.

You have the Speaker option - small vs large, crossover, etc., but overall very limited options. I have tried both Small vs. Large and I have tried all the crossover options.

You have Video option - HDMI.

If there were something wrong with my setup, then Batman Begins, Bourne Ultimatum and all HD DVD movies would be affected.

The fact that Bourne Ultimatum HD DVD sounded better than most BD movies I've seen says that the setup on my HD DVD player is just fine.

It's not about DD+ vs TrueHD.

I can't even tell the difference between DTS-core and DTS-HD MA on "Day After Tomorrow" BD.

I can't even tell the difference between DD, TrueHD, and PCM on "300" BD.

The fact is that I'm NOT the ONLY person with this complaint regarding the Transformers HD DVD.

There were scenes that had some awesome bass. But some scenes were disappointing.

Who knows. My copy may have some defects. Who knows.

 

[obscbyclouds]

Now, addressing Gene's compression comments, he might have a point. The DD+ on the HD DVD is 1.5 Mbps (which is better than Warner's DD/DD+ 640 Kbps encodes and SD DVD's typical 448 Kbps maximum). According to Ralph, the average audio bitrate on the Dolby TrueHD track is 4.1 Mbps! (Imagine how much of a bitrate and space ceiling that would be for PCM. Would PCM even fit within the 8 Mbs ceiling of Blu-Ray?)

You can approximate the bitrate by this formula: (only using a fixed bit rate system, i.e PCM)

# of samples (bits) * sampling frequency (# of samples per second) * number of channels = Bit rate

for example: 16 bit * 48,000 hz * 6 channels = 4,608,000 or 4.6mbit
or : 24 bit * 96,000 hz * 8 channels = 18,432,000 or 18.4mbit

Where did you see that Blu-ray has an 8Mbs ceiling for audio? I thought the theoretical limit for TrueHD was 18Mbs and DTS-HD MA was 24Mbs. Obviously any LPCM carrying the same data as those track will take a higher BR than the data using the two compression schemes.

 

[gus6464]

I'm still convinced there was something amiss with your setup. DD+ is a step down from Dolby TrueHD/PCM/DTS-HD MA. However, i's not night and day. Even Blu-Ray vs. well-upconverted (no Panny standalones! ) DVD isn't night and day visually.

I don't know what kind of BD or DVD player you have but BD is definitely a night and day difference in PQ when viewed through a big TV (50"+). I am sorry but no matter how good an upscaler can be in the end it's all about resolution and how many pixels are on screen.