SACD playback NO SUB

[SurroundMe]

Hi Everyone,

I need your help. I have a Denon 2106 receiver and a 2910/955 player. Everything works fine (audiowise) when playing digital but when I go to Ext. In to play an SACD it does not go to my sub. I have a Klipsch reference series 10" (if that matters). The options in my settings (which I have explored and experimented with) are beyond my understanding (PCM/No PCM). How do I need to set this up to get bass with my SACD?

 

[j_garcia]

Check your speaker level settings in the player, since using the player via analog means the player is managing the levels not the receiver. Also, for SACD and DVD-A, there is a setting for a +10dB offset that the 2910 should have to compensate for the difference between DVDs and SACD/DVD-A (my 2200 had this). This should be set to "on".

 

[SurroundMe]

Thank you. I'll try that.

 

[TLS Guy]

Check your speaker level settings in the player, since using the player via analog means the player is managing the levels not the receiver. Also, for SACD and DVD-A, there is a setting for a +10dB offset that the 2910 should have to compensate for the difference between DVDs and SACD/DVD-A (my 2200 had this). This should be set to "on".

There is no bass management possible when outputting directly from an SACD DSD decoder. Some players decode the DSD stream and then convert to PCM! This gives you bass management, but defeats the whole point of DSD.
Even receivers that have DSD decoders will not do speaker level matching and bass management, unless you set it to covert to PCM.

Now none of my SACDs have a dedicated sub channel. It is usual for SACD to only have five channel. So to hear an SACD direct from the DSD decoder, which is what you want, you have to build a system to level match in the analog domain. If your mains are not good full range speakers, then you also have to have an external crossover for the sub, or use the one in the sub. To use the one in the sub, you have to send it a blended left and right line level input.

As I have said before SACD is basically hobbled. I think practically all cheaper players convert to PCM, and they figure the customer will not know or understand. That is a cynical approach, but it saves a lot of hassle.

If you do have the DIY skills to get it right SACD is fantastic. It is anything but a a system usable to its fullest capabilities by the vast majority of consumers.

 

[j_garcia]

The Denon players have the ability to account for the 10dB difference in the LFE channel vs DD/DTS though. I believe this is the issue, as this is a common question, and the feature one that is often missed. My 2900 lacks this feature, but my receiver allows me to adjust speaker levels on the input as well as the adjustments within the player itself, so I don't need an outboard x-over.

The reality is, even converted to PCM, most wouldn't be able to tell the difference and it is still generally better than 99% of all redbook CDs out there, which, IMO, are far more hobbled in an attempt to make them work for the masses than what you get with SACD or DVD-A.

 

[SurroundMe]

OK guys I do have some DIY skills and some knowledge but compared to you, I am a neophite. Having said that, when people start talking about LFE, PCM and matching speaker levels, this is where my head starts to swim.

My front speakers are Klipsch RS-8's. I have a matching center and a couple of infinity quads for surround in the back. I used the microphone supplied by denon and let it program the speakers automatically.

I'm running one coax from my receiver to the sub. The sub has its own crossover which I think I maxed out (on the dial on the back). If I am to run a split where would I hook it up and where would that come from on the receiver? It also has a left and right out, but I think that's for another sub.

If SACDs don't have a dedicated sub channel, why am I running 6 cables to my receiver? Is the bass just encompassed in the five channels as it is in two channels?

 

[j_garcia]

SACDs come in a variety of flavors, and for example: 2ch SACDs don't have a dedicated LFE (.1) channel. For multichannel discs, you do need all 6 cables to hear all channels.

Sounds like your setup is correct, and your sub will be fed by the receiver through the same cable. My guess is the issue is in the player's setup, not the receiver, since it is simply analog. There are also speaker=large/small and sub=yes/no and crossover settings (may be fixed at 80Hz, but those settings will affect whether or not it is used) in the player that need to be adjusted, because as mentioned before, when feeding SACD and DVD/A via analog from the player, only the player's settings are used.

 

[TLS Guy]

OK guys I do have some DIY skills and some knowledge but compared to you, I am a neophite. Having said that, when people start talking about LFE, PCM and matching speaker levels, this is where my head starts to swim.

My front speakers are Klipsch RS-8's. I have a matching center and a couple of infinity quads for surround in the back. I used the microphone supplied by denon and let it program the speakers automatically.

I'm running one coax from my receiver to the sub. The sub has its own crossover which I think I maxed out (on the dial on the back). If I am to run a split where would I hook it up and where would that come from on the receiver? It also has a left and right out, but I think that's for another sub.

If SACDs don't have a dedicated sub channel, why am I running 6 cables to my receiver? Is the bass just encompassed in the five channels as it is in two channels?

The whole problem hinges on the fact you have not been able to process is DSD until recently.

Now there is a world of difference between pop and classical. For pop and rock you have to mix Eq, bounce tracks etc. This has all been done in PCM and then converted to DSD for SACD! In classical productions they have balanced live in analog and converted to DSD and left it alone. Very much like the old days in the late forties and fifties.

Now recently, Ed Meitner has put together a system for processing in DSD for a Sonoma DSD editing work station. Telarc have adopted this system enthusiastically. However it is not as handy as PCM

Digital audio Denmark have developed a PCM based 24 bit AX 24 system with a 352.8 KHz sampling rate, that is alleged to have the same performance as DSD. This edits just like any other PCM workstation. Then after final edit it is converted to DSD for SACD.

The problem with both systems is that the DSD playback by the customer can not be processed without converting to PCM at the currently offered bit and sampling rates. For these reasons many say SACD is doomed.

Now it really is only worth the trouble of listening to classical discs direct from the DSD decoder. For other genres it is a waste of time, currently.

If you want to level your speakers in analog, you have to put 10 K ohm trimmers in the analog feeds to the receiver. You need to make sure you set your player to output from DSD and not PCM.

If your speakers are full range with extended bass, then you are fine. The surround for SACD needs to go to the right and left center backs, not the surrounds. The surrounds should be silent.

If you need to derive a sub feed, then you need to send the pre outs of your receiver to two separate subs, with crossovers. If you have one sub, then you need to send each pre out to a buffer amp, then blend them and send them to the sub.

I fear the doomsayers may be correct.

 

[FeisalK]

then again, there are some SACDs which are 4.0 (no center and LFE channel)

 

[Alex2507]

If it's anything like my Denon 1920 there is a Bass Enhancement feature in the Audio section of the menu that has to be ON. A sub menu of Multi Channel Audio is where you find the Speaker Configuration to set the Subwoofer to YES. More than likely the rest of your speakers need to be set to small, unless of course your speakers can handle 20Hz. Try small anyway.

I had a similar problem a few months back and got it figured out. You can read take a look:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=375849&postcount=13

 

[TLS Guy]

then again, there are some SACDs which are 4.0 (no center and LFE channel)

SACDs can be two channel, three channel, four channel or five channel, under the specification. I have two, three and five channel but no fours.

 

[SurroundMe]

Hello All,

thanks for your input. I changed the sub setting to 10 like J Garcia advised and, butta boom, butta bang, butta fuco I had bass with my SACD. I am very thankful. The guys that sold me the equipment had no clue when I called with the same question. You guys rule.

If I may, I have another question. I was playing one of my Genesis discs on DTS 24/96 and I thought the sound was rather "bright." I'd like to get a warmer sound out of it (please don't tell me to buy a Rotel, I know, they sound awesome). Is there any tweaking I can do to bring a warmer sound. My speakers are decent and I think they have the capability to be warmer. Please let me know your thoughts.

Again, thanks for your advise on the SACD stuff. I can finally enjoy my DSOTM.

Randall

 

[j_garcia]

I've heard people say that some or all of the Genesis discs were not that well done, but I don't have first hand experience with any of the discs. I have a few SACDs that are basically no better than the redbook CD, so it is hard to say whether it is the disc or something in your system. How does DSotM sound? If it isn't bright, then it may just be the Genesis disc/recording. I normally wouldn't recommend it, but the quickest way to tame it would be a small treble adjustment.