31,000 Scientists Debunk Al Gore and Global Warming

Status
Not open for further replies.
MinusTheBear

MinusTheBear

Audioholic Ninja
There are simply people that in the face of all the [u said:
INDEPENDENT[/u] studies going on, for what ever reason, don't believe it. Simply mind boggling. They think all the links posted here are just some prop so Al Gore (of all people) can cash in...
Exactly!! Al Gore has nothing to do with independent research and studies undertaken by universities, scientists and other researchers in this field. . Al Gore is just a political figurehead for this topic.
 
Midcow2

Midcow2

Banned
:D And to think they would disagree with the man who invented the Internet
 
astrodon

astrodon

Audioholic
1.) How do you explain the correlation between what is happening on earth and recent sunspot activity?

2.) What is your view on the discovery that the polar ice caps on Mars are also receding, indicating that any planetary rise in average temperature is indicative of solar influence, versus earth-bound/man-made influence?
Part 1:

Before getting started, I need to point out that material found on the web is often misleading and sometimes completely wrong. One should always try to obtain scientific information from articles published in refereed journals. The info posted here is based upon my training which includes reading refereed journals. I will post some web sites (primarily from NASA) that represent current scientific thinking on these subjects. The material on these websites are accurate to the best of my knowledge and written by (actual) solar astronomers and solar physicists.

I apologize for being so long winded in this response, but solar physics is a bit complicated and there is a lot to explain. Since I worked at SOHO at NASA/Goddard for a few years, I'll point you to some interesting links at the SOHO website http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/ along the way for further information). I'll try to keep my explanations here as non-technical and as short as possible.

Sunspot numbers on the Sun vary from minimum to maximum to minimum values over an approximate 11 year cycle. Sunspots are dark regions on the Sun and mark what are called "active regions" -- regions of enhanced magnetic activity. Whereas one cycle might have sunspot pairs where north lead the south pole in an active region as the Sun rotates, the next cycle will have the reverse, south leading north. Hence the Sun's magnetic cycle is approximately 22 years. Note that the length of these cycles can vary by a few months from cycle to cycle. Also, these cycles have stopped in the Sun in the past, called the Maunder Minimum (see below), for a period of time and then restarted.

A new cycle starts when a minimum number of sunspots is noted from observations. We have just started a new sunspot cycle in January of 2008 (cycle number 24 -- i.e., the number of cycles since records have been kept on sunspot numbers) and the next maximum will occur in the summer of 2013. Based on past cycles, predictions suggest that this current cycle will have slightly less sunspot numbers than the last cycle.

The Sun emits energy at all wavelengths of the electromagnetic (E/M) spectrum. Though sunspots are dark at visible wavelengths, they are bright at ultraviolet (UV) and X-ray wavelengths. The visible part of the Sun's spectrum arises from the deepest layers of the solar atmosphere called the photosphere -- the average temperature in the photosphere is 6000 K (K = Kelvin, the absolute temperature scale, zero Kelvin = -459 deg-F is as cold as you can get, room temperature is about 300 K). "Atmosphere" in the Sun and other stars has a slightly different meaning than it does for the terrestrial (i.e., Earth-like) planets -- there is no solid surface on the Sun or on stars, the gas just gets denser and denser (and hotter and hotter) as one goes deeper. As one travels out of the Sun through the photosphere, the temperature continuously drops until a point is reached where the temperature reverses itself and starts to climb. This enhanced temperature region (about 10,000 K) of the solar atmosphere is called the chromosphere (seen as a red ring around the Moon during a solar eclipse, the light is reddish due to emission from a hydrogen transition going from the 3rd to the 2nd excited state in this atom, the so-called H-alpha line). This temperature rise results from sound waves and magnetic waves generated from the convection zone that sits just below the solar photosphere. The gas density in the chromosphere is a lot lower than it is in the photosphere and due to its relatively high temperature, emissions lines from singly ionized metals at UV wavelengths are very strong, such as singly-ionized magnesium and iron (note that in astronomy, every atom heavier than helium is called a metal).

As we get to the top of the chromosphere, there is a sharp increase in temperature up to one or two million Kelvins. This hot region is called the corona because its light is seen as a halo (or crown) around the Moon during a solar eclipse. The gas in the corona is of very low density, hence it does not produce a lot of light as compared to the photosphere. But the light it does produce is brightest at X-ray wavelengths due to its high temperature. This coronal gas is completely ionized and is trapped in big magnetic loops for days (even weeks) at a time. In between the coronal loops are coronal holes, it is through these "holes" where the solar wind originates (note that all of these facts on the structure of the corona were discovered by the solar telescope onboard Skylab).

In order to measure the energy budget of solar radiation falling on the Earth, we need to integrate over the entire E/M spectrum, this then tells us the bolometric flux of the Sun on the Earth. This bolometric flux is also called the Total Solar Irradiance (TSI) and the "solar constant," the latter since this flux varies by less than 0.1% over a sunspot cycle (measured by VIRGO on SOHO from 1996 to present, by other spacecraft prior to this, and by ground-based measurement prior to the space program) and its average over a sunspot cycle hasn't changed (to within the uncertainties of the observations, which are small by the way) over the time these measurements have been made. The Sun's energy output is smallest during sunspot minimum and largest during maximum (see http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/gallery/Helioseismology/vir010.html and http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/hotshots/1999_12_20/). The reason for this is that even though sunspots are dark, hence reducing the visible light output by a small amount, the UV and X-ray flux is enhanced causing the TSI to increase. Measurements made by spacecraft over the past three decades have shown that the irradiance at extreme UV (EUV) wavelengths (i.e., just shy of the X-ray region) can vary over 30% within weeks and by a factor of 2 to 100 (depending upon wavelength) over a solar cycle (see http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/publications/ESA_Bull126.pdf, pages 30 & 31).

As I had mentioned above, the Sun experienced a time from 1645 to 1715 when sunspots were virtually absent from the Sun. This was first noted by E.W. Maunder in his refereed article in the Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society in 1890 (volume 50, page 251). Coincidentally, the northern hemisphere experienced a "Little Ice Age" during a portion of this time period. It has been suggested that the lack of sunspots might have been the cause of the cold temperatures.

This leads us now to the physics of the solar-terrestrial interactions, which is also a very complicated subject. The Sun is continuously shining E/M radiation on us and blowing its wind upon us (including high energy events such as solar flares and coronal mass ejections from time to time). The Earth's magnetic field blocks the solar wind and these high energy flows from the Sun (though they do cause aurorae). However it is possible for a few very high energy particles to make it through the magnetic field and reach the ground. The Earth's atmosphere is transparent to visible light, some bands in the infrared (IR) and microwave regions, and a large portion of the radio part of the spectrum. X-rays are absorbed by ionized nitrogen and oxygen in the Earth's ionosphere (outermost part of the Earth's atmosphere) and UV light is absorbed by ozone in the stratosphere. CO2 and H2O (and trace amounts of other gases) in the Earth's atmosphere absorb portions of the IR part of the spectrum. In terms of heating the surface directly by the Sun, visible light supplies the largest portion of this energy budget. As the Earth's surface is warmed by the Sun, its temperature increases. The Earth reradiates some this energy back into space at IR wavelengths following Wien's radiation law. Increasing CO2 and H2O abundances in the atmosphere increases the absorption of this reradiate heat, hence heating the atmosphere (the so-called greenhouse effect).

How can a lack of sunspots affect the Earth's surface temperature? With no sunspots on the solar disk, one would expect more visible light reaching the ground hence a temperature increase. But just the opposite happened during the Little Ice Age. As mentioned earlier, active regions produce enhanced UV and X-ray flux. Higher amounts of this flux should heat the stratosphere and ionosphere, respectively. Unfortunately, there is not much mixing between the various layers of the Earth's atmosphere and the thermal coupling between these higher layers and the lowest layer, the troposphere, is not very high. However, it may be high enough such that changing the temperatures in these upper layers could change the temperature at the lowest layer (though very inefficiently). It has been suggested that perhaps the lack of sunspots during the Maunder Minimum caused a decrease in UV and X-ray solar flux, hence cooling the ionosphere and stratosphere, and hence the troposphere. At this point, this is mere speculation since this Earth's surface and atmosphere are a very non-linear and dynamic system.

Note that I have seen passages on the web that claim that solar activity has been dimishing over the past 20 years. As a one time solar astronomer, this is 100% false! All you need to do is to look around on the SOHO website and look at the sunspot numbers. They change, but in their standard 11 year cycle. The TSI data also show this statement to be false.
 
astrodon

astrodon

Audioholic
1.) How do you explain the correlation between what is happening on earth and recent sunspot activity?

2.) What is your view on the discovery that the polar ice caps on Mars are also receding, indicating that any planetary rise in average temperature is indicative of solar influence, versus earth-bound/man-made influence?
Part 2:

So, is the Sun influencing the this global warming over the past 100 years? The answer to this is effectively no since the TSI has remained constant when integrated over a given cycle during this time period. Also, over the past 5 years we have been going from solar max back to solar min, so we would expect the temperatures to be cooling during this time period, yet we have had some of the warmest years on record during this time period. Hence, changes in the Sun's energy output are not the cause of global warming.

I'll answer your Mars ice cap question within the next day or so. These next statements are not oriented at you, but instead to the general reader. Again, much of the so-called science-oriented information on the web is misleading and sometimes inaccurate. Don't trust it. Since many of you can't gain access to scientific journals, just go to your local libraries and look at textbooks on whatever subject you are interested in. You will likely find the information you seek there. Though mistakes can occur in textbooks, there won't be many of them.
 
astrodon

astrodon

Audioholic
One more thing concerning the Sun -- over geologic time periods, the eccentricity of the Earth's orbit (i.e., how "squished" it is) has changed slightly and its axis tilt has also changed slightly (though they haven't changed by much in recorded history based on historic records). These changes occur due to gravitational perturbations from the other planets in the solar system and from larger comets and asteroids that pass close to our planet. Some have speculated that it is these changes that led to the ice ages the Earth has experienced. However, the Earth's eccentricity has had a constant value of 0.017 (nearly circular, a circle has 0.0 eccentricity) and it's axis tilt (23.5 degrees) hasn't changed since we started measuring these parameters in an accurate manner (meaning centuries). As such, changes in the Earth's orbital or rotational motions are not the cause of global warming either.
 
astrodon

astrodon

Audioholic
1.) How do you explain the correlation between what is happening on earth and recent sunspot activity?

2.) What is your view on the discovery that the polar ice caps on Mars are also receding, indicating that any planetary rise in average temperature is indicative of solar influence, versus earth-bound/man-made influence?
Now for your second question, Mars orbits the Sun every 1.88 years. Its orbital eccentricity is 0.093 (quite a bit more elliptical than the Earth's orbit) and its orbit is tilted slightly with respect to the Earth's at 1.8 degrees. Similar to the Earth, Mars axis is tilted by 25.2 degrees with respect to the normal of its orbit. As such, the seasons on Mars are similar to that on the Earth, only twice (1.88 times to be exact) as long. The ice caps on Mars are made up of mostly frozen carbon dioxide with traces of frozen water. Mars' atmosphere is only 1/100th as thick as the Earth's atmosphere and is composed primarily of gaseous carbon dioxide (95%, the remaining 5% is mostly molecular nitrogen and argon).

The Martian ice caps recede during the summer months and expand in the winter months. When it is summer in the northern hemisphere, the north ice caps shrinks and the same time, its winter in the southern hemisphere and the south cap expands in area. Indeed, depending upon Mars' location in its orbit, an ice cap can completely disappear for months if Mars is near perihelion (closest point to the Sun in a planet's orbit). Mars also experiences planet wide dust storms which last for weeks. An ice cap also can be obscured during one of these dust storms.

There has been no "long term" trend in Mars' ice caps completely melting. These meltings are seasonal. Astronomers have known about these meltings since the days of Huygens (mid-1600s). I have seen this statement made about Mars in the past on the Audioholics web site and I'm curious as to where this misinformation was obtained. I decide to do a Google search on the web and came up with my answer -- it seems that conservative organizations are responsible for this erroneous statement (and more as it turns out). For instance, the site sponsored by CFIF.ORG has the following article at
http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/legislative_issues/federal_issues/hot_issues_in_congress/energy/Al-Gore-Scours-for-Extraterrestrial-SUVs.htm

The title of this article is "Mars and Pluto Climates Warming, Al Gore Scours for Extraterrestrial SUVs." In this article the claim is made that "On Mars, NASA and the California Institute of Technology's Jet Propulsion Laboratory report a prolonged period of surface warming, and the Martian icecap is steadily receding." I have checked planetary astronomy journal Icarus over the past decade and the JPL and NASA/Goddard web pages and the only articles I have found about Mars' receding ice caps are the observations of the seasonal variations of these ice caps. The article goes on to say that "Pluto is undergoing a similar period of global warming, scientists report. According to a Massachusetts Institute of Technology release, 'Pluto is undergoing global warming, as evidenced by a three-fold increase in the planet's atmospheric pressure during the past 14 years.'" This is misleading since what these scientists were reporting was the increase in Pluto's atmosphere pressure and temperature increase as the planet approached its perihelion in its long duration orbit. Pluto's orbit has a very large eccentricity (0.248) and reached perihelion in 1989 when it actually came closer to the Sun than Neptune for about a decade. Pluto is now on it way back out to the depths of the solar system and its atmosphere is now starting to freeze back onto its surface. Fortunately this freezing is a slow process and Pluto should still have a measurable atmosphere when the New Horizons spacecraft gets there in 2015.

So what are we to make from this? Either that these conservative groups are ignorant or they are devious. There is a difference between science and pseudoscience. Its one thing to debate the interpretation of scientific data, its another thing to manipulate the data to prove your dogma.

On a final note, I am reminded of a child when they are suspected of doing something wrong and they make the claim that they didn't do it. Well we are doing it, the blame rests with us. The Earth has gone through many gradual warming and cooling trends throughout its 4.5 billion year history that resulted from changes in the Earth's orbit and axis, explosions of supervolcanoes, or impacts of asteroids and comets. However, none of these events have happened in the last century to cause the average temperature rise that has been measured in the air and seas. (Note that the small comet that hit in Siberia in the early 1900s did not have any lasting impact on the Earth's atmosphere since it exploded before it hit the ground.) Well that's it for now. Hopefully I have cleared up a few misconceptions.
 
D

davo

Full Audioholic
Hey, that was a good read astrodon, thanks for putting in the time and effort. I read the first 4 pages of this thread before I skipped to the end, and I have to assume that no-one has asked why the opposers to G/W don't do a similar thing to what Al Gore did to de-bunk his views?

Because anyone can say "I don't beleive it"
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
The problem I have is with two things. First, what is it we actually do to mitigate the potential damage? Might we fall into the all-too-typical manmade trap of creating worse situational conditions through mucking around with Mother Nature. Might the cure be worse than the the symptom?
Mucking around with mother nature is: reducing the chemicals we dump into the atmosphere by the hundreds of thousands of tons?

I really need this one explained to me. The protocols are for limiting what would other wise not be in the atmosphere. I have no idea how the jump to 'mucking' around is made. Is my logic off on this particular point?
 
Halon451

Halon451

Audioholic Samurai
Astrodon, I would like to sincerely thank you for taking the time for a very in depth answer to my questions. Admittedly I will have to re-read it a little more thoroughly when I have the time (just got into work, so need to get busy on some things). :eek:
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
Astrodon- that was a fantastic explanation. I think I understood about 65% of it on the first :D, gonna have to go back again!!
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Many thanks for the detailed explanation, Astrodon. It was very informative!

If you get the will and the time I'd like your take on one matter.

* What is the prevailing logic that explains the intense global warming shown to have existed during the Cretaceous period. Certainly much more is involved with atmospheric warming than global radiative properties.

Lastly and as a return to the OP, here is a recent article with some interesting references. http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=927b9303-802a-23ad-494b-dccb00b51a12

Those who do not maintain a healthy dose of skepticism regarding both sides of this argument are in for some surprises.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
That's an interesting article R J.
It really disserves it's own thread.
Surely going to upset more than a few lemmings.
I have read the article. No lemmings upset here. Open debate is fine. But here in lies the problem:

Where are the links to the hard data they are making their assessment on? That is all that is being asked. Fine to have an opinion, everyone has one, but where is the data they are using to form this opinion?

I really don't care one way or the other on any scientific debate. I am simply going to go where the data leads. Nothing wrong with that. If the models change and the whole thing was for nothing, great.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Where are the links to the hard data they are making their assessment on? That is all that is being asked. Fine to have an opinion, everyone has one, but where is the data they are using to form this opinion?

I really don't care one way or the other on any scientific debate. I am simply going to go where the data leads.
The only thing I can say when speaking of scientific data.
Politics and money, are the tail, that wag the scientific dog.
Sad but true.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
The only thing I can say when speaking of scientific data.
Politics and money, are the tail, that wag the scientific dog.
Sad but true.
So this is your answer?

Minusthebear, tbewick, astrodon, myself and others have all provided links to peer reviewed studies that we have evaluated and agreed to. And all you can do it posture...

This thread has run it's course, what I said in post 79 Seems to have held up.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
I have read the article. No lemmings upset here. Open debate is fine. But here in lies the problem:

Where are the links to the hard data they are making their assessment on? That is all that is being asked. Fine to have an opinion, everyone has one, but where is the data they are using to form this opinion?

I really don't care one way or the other on any scientific debate. I am simply going to go where the data leads. Nothing wrong with that. If the models change and the whole thing was for nothing, great.
You know, I said I wouldn't respond to you, but you deserve one. :rolleyes:

As you just said, you obviously don't care about scientific debate (the heart of scientific advancement, by the way). I'll wager my entire audio collection that you do not have the background to interpret the very data that you're going to "go where it leads". You praise the links to the data, technical and peer review papers...yet you obviously have not taken the time to follow up on the link I provided. You do your research from references from just that one link and you'll find hundreds of sound research items that detail why you should not be so firmly entrenched in your point of view...why there are important aspects of this debate that require thoughtful investigation rather than this tendency you have for dismissal and denial.

The Chinese have a phrase, Wu Li. It means "physics"...and it also means "to hold one's ideas closely"...to be opinionated and closed to the truth. Which are you? Open minded or (political, in this case) lemming?

EDIT...in case you're interested (probably not), here is just ONE link to a number of peer reviewed studies that the link I posted will direct you to. http://epw.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Minority.Blogs&ContentRecord_id=84e9e44a-802a-23ad-493a-b35d0842fed8
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
You know, I said I wouldn't respond to you, but you deserve one. :rolleyes:

As you just said, you obviously don't care about scientific debate (the heart of scientific advancement, by the way). I'll wager my entire audio collection that you do not have the background to interpret the very data that you're going to "go where it leads". You praise the links to the data, technical and peer review papers...yet you obviously have not taken the time to follow up on the link I provided. You do your research from references from just that one link and you'll find hundreds of sound research items that detail why you should not be so firmly entrenched in your point of view...why there are important aspects of this debate that require thoughtful investigation rather than this tendency you have for dismissal and denial.

The Chinese have a phrase, Wu Li. It means "physics"...and it also means "to hold one's ideas closely"...to be opinionated and closed to the truth. Which are you? Open minded or (political, in this case) lemming?
And why would I have to defend myself to someone who has added nothing material to this thread? The above could be also said about you and others. Whether it is true or not.

I believe myself to be open minded to the data that is out there. I believe in actually going out and doing some digging (and I did). You still have as yet to build any convincing argument for. I also believe that I will take Astrodons position on this: The evidence leads one to believe...

Correct I should have said political, not scientific debate. Now it's corrected.

Micheal Crichton wrote a book called 'State of Fear' were he is playing devils advocate against GW. The problem was is he is fundamentally incorrect even though he rightly lists datum so support his effort.

Again, I don't know what to say to you. You aren't going to convince me, nor I you. All I know is which side of this debate in this thread have produced more peer accepted data. Take it or leave it.
 
S

spacedteddybear

Audioholic Intern
I don't think you Rickster71 have actually contributed anything of substance in this thread other than to stir the hornets nest. And I see that you've also chose to not to give a direct response to astrodon's post and references as of yet. Or is this
The only thing I can say when speaking of scientific data.
Politics and money, are the tail, that wag the scientific dog.
Sad but true.
the only thing of substance you can come up with? It's an appeal to motive. In fact, that's what all of your posts has been amount to. Oh you support scientific data sure but apparently, not when that scientific data is inconvenient to your to your views. Then they're doing it for the money.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
I don't think you Rickster71 have actually contributed anything of substance in this thread other than to stir the hornets nest. And I see that you've also chose to not to give a direct response to astrodon's post and references as of yet. Or is this

the only thing of substance you can come up with? It's an appeal to motive. In fact, that's what all of your posts has been amount to. Oh you support scientific data sure but apparently, not when that scientific data is inconvenient to your to your views. Then they're doing it for the money.
Contribute to the thread? Come on...IT'S HIS THREAD! He can do whatever he wants to satisfy his reason for putting the thread out there. Substance...he started a discussion which needs dialog, and which some people think necessary to turn into a willy waving match and sling personal insults doing so.

Astrodon and tbewick made fine technical posts. But Astrodon's post was a reply to a specific question in the thread. What's for Rickster to reply to? Even junjuku will tell you that this is a political discussion and issue as well as a scientific one. There are plenty of contributors to that.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top