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stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
Do you guys know that there are "dual" pricing tiers when it comes to paying for care, a surgery might might be billed at $10,000, if you don't have insurance that's what you pay, the insurance company goes in there and haggles with the hospital, they pay probably 6 to 5 thousand.
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
Do you guys know that there are "dual" pricing tiers when it comes to paying for care, a surgery might might be billed at $10,000, if you don't have insurance that's what you pay, the insurance company goes in there and haggles with the hospital, they pay probably 6 to 5 thousand.
Yeah, learned that when helping a family member through cancer. Mind boggling, huh?

What about the paper work? It's a full time job!
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
If you can afford it and don't get it, that's too bad.
It's too bad for you too when the person who didn't take their TB drugs coughs on you.

I believe if health insurance was more affordable, more people would buy it. Of course, there will be those who don't, so screw them as you said.

Point taken that universal health care isn't free. But considering we're spending 12bil per month in Iraq, providing healthcare for all citizens doesn't seem so bad. Again, I'm not saying it's the right way to go, just pointing out we've spent money in worst ways.

Yes we're a Federal Government which is why richer states support poorer ones. The fact still remains that people have to pay to help other people help. This could apply to healthcare. I'm not saying it should, but the argument that you don't want to spend to bail other people out is weak because it happens in everyday life. And I have news for you, someone is bailing you out somehow. We're all on the same side.

There's a middle ground here and that is to introduce a good, comprehensive, non-mandatory government plan, but not dismantle the current system. Do that and see how it goes.

As a citizen of both the US and the EU and having lived in both, it's easy for me to see the arrogance on both sides. I will point out that if it weren't for help from the Europeans, the US wouldn't even exist. Europe was around before the US and will be around long after the US. And the Europeans need to remember that they received a lot of help after WW II. We should not be arguing with each other as our history has shown us helping each other. We should start concentrating on real threats in the world.
 
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R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
So, you're comparing an act of God, (a hurricane) with a person choosing to smoke, and eat French fries? Oh brother.
So if someone who never smokes, eats right, and exercising gets cancer and we should ignore them because it's not an act of God and they couldn't afford life insurance? Also, remind me who's to blame for polluting the world to a point that hurricanes happen constantly.
 
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rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
Do you guys know that there are "dual" pricing tiers when it comes to paying for care, a surgery might might be billed at $10,000, if you don't have insurance that's what you pay, the insurance company goes in there and haggles with the hospital, they pay probably 6 to 5 thousand.
Of course they haggle. There's three ways to make money: increase income, reduce costs, and reduce the taxes you pay. Just because they haggle with the hospital, doesn't mean they're passing those savings on to you.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Or, it might save on the huge profits that insurance companies make, redundant work at each insurance company, etc. After all, that is also an equal probability.
some make big profits, some go out of business, some get bought by others.

We have the choice to be insured or not. Between Medicare, PPOs, HMOs, EPOs, or even low-risk/ultra-high-deductible packages for the healthy, we can pay in cash, make monthly payments (just ask the dr.), etc. You can bargain with a doctor you know... just like buying AV equipment. :cool: I wonder just how many people on these boards are uninsured, but are looking to upgrade their receiver or subwoofer. :eek: (because I KNOW there is someone doing just that...)

at least we have certain choices available. pay less, get less options, but that's our choice. I happen to pay a lot for healthcare, even if I NEVER get sick, I want as many choices available to me in the case that I have serious illness. I want to wait less for pending authorizations, have better coverage, have more choices between the physicians who may treat me.

The co-pays, co-insurances, and deductibles are necessary deterrents so that patients do not abuse their policies. If healthcare was free, perhaps we'd have the same issues as moettus. Capitation is a wierd one... the more the patient gets sick, the less the doctor gets paid, at least in many cases?

Our government audits the insurance companies and doctors on a regular basis. If it has the government handling all of this, just who exactly audits themselves? Like the government will really bend over backwards? I know a doctor who had a California senator's ear in trying to get justice for having gone thru great pains with the Medi-cal system. The DHS just did not care at all, as they are VERY POWERFUL. Senator hardly scared them. DHS has got the governor's ear.

I think if we want to be taken care of, that we should take care of the doctors and healthcare professionals in general. They have to go through so much work and help so many people before they get any economical footing. A lot of these people are extremely bright, as they better be, and I don't think its a good idea to make this profession an undesirable one.

My younger brother is on his ER rotation at the largest ER hospital in the area (lot of helicopters from surrounding areas). He gets paid a pittance now considering the number of lives he's probably saved and the ridiculous and unsteady hours he works.

Anyways, an insurance company is a business and they try to survive as best they can. What I take from governmental health insurance is that they do not save during the good times for the rainy days. When we are in a economic slump, health programs get pulled, audits come out of nowhere so that they can delay payments to doctors which in turn means they collect interest during said time, even just suspend licenses for no reason, taking a business out in its wake. It takes a doctor or nurse FOREVER to get certain CA-state-insurance licenses. if you want "permission" to upgrade your billing software, it takes forever. If you are a working nurse of 20 years, and want to work for another doctor, probably a half year to get that license. The bureacracy is nuts. If that nurse is not licensed for that particular doctor, and the doctor is using her, he perhaps risks losing everything. If they screw the doctor, and the doctor wants to fight back, the legal staying power of the state legal team is something that is nearly impossible to survive. They got you by the balls, at least from the doctor's perspective... well, Im speculating... Im not a doctor...

The doctor should only be concerned with the patient. The headaches with social medicine do not seem to justify the benefits to me at this point in time. It is an ideal that sounds nice... I don't know I'm not entirely sure of it yet. I feel like that in this case, diversity is a strong point. I'm all ears to more arguments though.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
Of course they haggle. There's three ways to make money: increase income, reduce costs, and reduce the taxes you pay. Just because they haggle with the hospital, doesn't mean they're passing those savings on to you.
I never said that they did, on the other hand someone's going to pay. Another factor everyone seems to forget is doctor's insurance, they also pay through the nose, then there's the matter of tort and malpractice. It's a never-ending cycle.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
So if someone who never smokes, eats right, and exercising gets cancer and we should ignore them because it's not an act of God and they couldn't afford life insurance? Also, remind me who's to blame for polluting the world to a point that hurricanes happen constantly.
Smokers???
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Another factor everyone seems to forget is doctor's insurance, they also pay through the nose, then there's the matter of tort and malpractice. It's a never-ending cycle.
Good point. My friend asked a doctor why he works so damn hard. The doc replied that he was saving up for that day when he "gets screwed".
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
There are doctors in Miami that have "THIS OFFICE HAS NO MEDICAL MALPRACTICE INSURANCE" posted in the reception area. Why? Because ridiculous and unwarranted litigation made malpractice insurance too expensive, so when you enter one of these offices, you know the cow isn't full of milk. Sadly, that's how a lot of MDs have to operate down here.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
My parting shot:

Socialized Medicine on Life Support
The Supreme Court of Canada finally gets one right
June 27, 2005

By David Gratzer

GOVERNMENT HEALTH-CARE ENTHUSIASTS in the United States have long looked to Canada as a leading light of health care fairness and equity. From a distance, Canada may seem to have it all: modern medicine and universal insurance. Up close, the story is quite different. On June 9, the Supreme Court of Canada called the system dangerous and deadly, striking down key laws and turning the country's vaunted health care system on its head. The ruling aptly symbolizes the declining enthusiasm for socialized medicine even in socialist nations. American legislators—such as those in the California Senate who approved a single-payer plan this month—should take note.

The Supreme Court of Canada is arguably the most liberal high court in the Western world. Most legal scholars expressed surprise that the justices even agreed to hear this appeal of a health care case twice dismissed by lower courts. Involving a man who waited almost a year for a hip replacement, the bench decided that the province of Quebec has no right to restrict the freedom of a person to purchase health care or health insurance. In doing so, they struck down two Quebec laws, overturning a 30-year ban on private medicine in the province. The wording of the ruling, though, has implications beyond Quebec, and could be used to scrap other major parts of Canada's federal health care legislation.

What would drive the bench to such a profound ruling? Chief Justice Beverley McLachlin and Justice John Major wrote: "The evidence in this case shows that delays in the public health care system are widespread, and that, in some serious cases, patients die as a result of waiting lists for public health care."

This outcome would not have been possible without the persistence of one man: Jacques Chaoulli. A Montreal physician, Chaoulli was so angered when a government bureaucrat shut down his private family practice that he went on a hunger strike. After a month, he gave up and decided that only the courts could help his fight.

With an eye on a legal challenge, Chaoulli tried his hand at law school—but flunked out after a semester. Undeterred, he sought the help of various organizations to support his efforts. None would. He decided to proceed anyway, choosing to represent himself. His legal fight, costing more than a half million dollars, was funded largely by his Japanese father-in-law.

But Chaoulli was not completely alone. He asked one of his patients for help. A former chemical salesman with a bad hip, the patient agreed. Their argument was simple: Quebec's ban on private insurance caused unnecessary suffering since waiting lists have grown so long for basic care.

The woes of Chaoulli's patient are all too common. Canadians wait for practically any diagnostic test, surgical procedure, or specialist consultation. Many can't even arrange general care. In Norwood, Ontario, for example, one family doctor serves the entire town, and he can only take 50 new patients a year. The town holds an annual lottery to choose the lucky 50.

According to Statistics Canada, approximately 1.2 million Canadians lack a family doctor and are looking for one. Others seek more urgent care. Toronto was shaken recently when the media reported that a retired hockey legend was forced to wait more than a month for life-saving chemotherapy because of a bed shortage at the largest cancer hospital in the country. American companies now routinely advertise in major Canadian dailies, offering timely health care—in the United States. No wonder that, a few years back, more than 80 percent of Canadians rated the system "in crisis."

And now the Supreme Court of Canada agrees. Moreover, it's not alone in tiring of the shortcomings of socialized medicine. Throughout Europe, the story is one of a slow but steady abandonment of public health care.

British prime minister Tony Blair recently won reelection on a platform that called for tripling the number of surgeries contracted out to private firms. Across the Channel, private medicine flourishes. Tim Evans of the influential think tank Centre for the New Europe observes: "There is no ideological debate about who provides the care [in continental Europe]. . . . There are only good hospitals and bad hospitals, not public and private ones." Even in Sweden, patients choose among public and private hospitals. St. Goran's, the largest hospital in Stockholm, is privately run and managed.

And yet, in the United States, legislators continue to flirt with socialized medicine. In recent months, those in California, Maine, and Vermont have voted for some type of single-payer system. These policymakers should realize that U.S. health care may have its woes, but the siren song of socialized medicine offers no solution. Indeed, even the Supreme Court of Canada recognizes that socialism for health care is a prescription for an early grave.

David Gratzer, a physician.


http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=270338135202343


WHAT WE HAVE NOW IS NOT WORKING, WE ALL KNOW THAT, RIGHT NOW IT'S PATCHED TOGETHER AS BEST AS POSSIBLE, I'M 100% FOR OVER HAULING THE SYSTEM, BUT SOCIALIZING IT IS NOT THE WAY, THERE HAS TO BE A BETTER OPTION AND YES IT HAS TO BE SOON, MY FEAR IS THAT BUREAUCRATS ARE PLAYING WITH OUR HEALTH AS WE SIT ON THE SIDELINES.
 
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Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
short term memory? Gee, you didn't say that 60 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Norway_by_Nazi_Germany

Face it, without the good ole US of A you'd be speaking either German or Russian today. Heck pretty soon you might be speaking Farsi if we turn our backs on you ...and your government knows that.

Really sticks in yer craw, doesn't it?
Canada and Britain played equal parts to the US as well, probably more actually, because you didn't join the war until Japan bombed pearl harbor.

Can threads like this not exist?
SheepStar
 
A

AdrianMills

Full Audioholic
Sheesh, there are more straw men in this thread than a field full of scarecrows. I should have know better though, as every thread I've ever seen which to attempts to criticize the US ends like this with accusations of "anti-American sentiment", "European arrogance" and other such foolishness. :rolleyes:

Whatever guys, enjoy your country. I really hope things improve over there for you but I somehow doubt that they will.

Now that's me done.
 
A

AdrianMills

Full Audioholic
For those of you that would like to have a more informed opinion before ranting on about how wonderful your country is please read this very good essay; Why do People Hate America? It contains a number of sections that answer some of the uninformed opinions ranted at me in this thread that I'm too indifferent to answer directly. And no, whatever any of you may think, I don't hate America.

Now I'm really done.

Sheesh, there are more straw men in this thread than a field full of scarecrows. I should have know better though, as every thread I've ever seen which to attempts to criticize the US ends like this with accusations of "anti-American sentiment", "European arrogance" and other such foolishness. :rolleyes:

Whatever guys, enjoy your country. I really hope things improve over there for you but I somehow doubt that they will.

Now that's me done.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Canada and Britain played equal parts to the US as well, probably more actually, because you didn't join the war until Japan bombed pearl harbor.

Can threads like this not exist?
SheepStar
Canada and Britian may have TRIED to stem the tide of the war but it wasn't until America, with all it's industrial might and multitudes of people joined in that any progress was seen. We not only stemmed the tide, we reversed it.

It was only a matter of time before we joined the fray, thanks to the anti-war peolle here. You should consider yourself lucky that Japan made such a stupid move when they did but don't worry, Canada will always be our little buddy and we'll always look out for you. Britian, OTOH, does a pretty good job by itself which is surprising considering their population and land mass. They use their heads.
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
WHAT WE HAVE NOW IS NOT WORKING, WE ALL KNOW THAT, RIGHT NOW IT'S PATCHED TOGETHER AS BEST AS POSSIBLE, I'M 100% FOR OVER HAULING THE SYSTEM, BUT SOCIALIZING IT IS NOT THE WAY, THERE HAS TO BE A BETTER OPTION AND YES IT HAS TO BE SOON, MY FEAR IS THAT BUREAUCRATS ARE PLAYING WITH OUR HEALTH AS WE SIT ON THE SIDELINES.
I certainly agree with this and that socializing may not be the best option.
 
jonnythan

jonnythan

Audioholic Ninja
Canada and Britian may have TRIED to stem the tide of the war but it wasn't until America, with all it's industrial might and multitudes of people joined in that any progress was seen. We not only stemmed the tide, we reversed it.

It was only a matter of time before we joined the fray, thanks to the anti-war peolle here. You should consider yourself lucky that Japan made such a stupid move when they did but don't worry, Canada will always be our little buddy and we'll always look out for you. Britian, OTOH, does a pretty good job by itself which is surprising considering their population and land mass. They use their heads.
The war would have been long over before the US entered it if the US wasn't providing support to Britain.

What does this have to do with health care?
 
aberkowitz

aberkowitz

Audioholic Field Marshall
Can threads like this not exist?
SheepStar
I agree with Sheep. What started as a simple conversation about Health Care turned into a country-bashing cowboy fest.

All of our countries are flawed, as are all of our leaders. The flaws of the US will always be front and center because we are a superpower. It's stupid to try and compare the policies of any one European country to the US as a whole because it's totally apples vs. oranges. A more relevant comparison would be to compare Germany to California or the EU to the US- but even those comparisons would be greatly flawed because our systems just don't work the same way.

Would a universal health care type of system work in the US? Maybe- but only if every individual state ran their own system separately. This country is way too big and diverse to conclude that what works in New York will work in Nebraska, Louisiana, and Oregon. I personally wouldn't fight for this system, but it's the only way I see it possibly working.

As for right now, as somebody who has lived in Europe (albeit for a short time) I would still take the US healthcare system almost any other when it comes to the serious procedures and diseases.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Sheesh, there are more straw men in this thread than a field full of scarecrows. I should have know better though, as every thread I've ever seen which to attempts to criticize the US ends like this with accusations of "anti-American sentiment", "European arrogance" and other such foolishness. :rolleyes:

Whatever guys, enjoy your country. I really hope things improve over there for you but I somehow doubt that they will.

Now that's me done.
AdrianMills,

You seem unable or unwilling to discuss the thread topic. Your idea of dialogue has been off-base throughout. If you'll look back at your posts, you have done naught but criticize the U.S. and extoll the virtues of the EU. You apparently see only blacks and whites and no shades of grey. This is the typical attitude of a true believer, by the way.

If you are convinced that you do not possess a "European arrogance", then I am left to conclude that you simply display a model of ignorant bias. There are many good and bad things that plague/enhance both of our continents. Too bad you can only see what your bias allows. And an anti-American bias it is.

It is in all of our interests to solve these issues that plague us.
 
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