Sub output: how much do you really need?

B

BC Dave

Audioholic Intern
Over the years of reading subwoofer tests by Tom Nousaine and others, it appears that a sub capable of hitting 105 dBs that Nousaine would have raved about 10 years ago would now be described by him as having only average or even "limited" output. I don't usually watch movies at superloud levels and I must confess to wondering this: If a sub was hitting 105 or 110 dB peaks, what would the sound pressure level be across the rest of the spectrum handled by the other speakers? Surely no one could stand to watch a movie for long at those levels. Isn't 90 dB bass at 30 or 40 Hertz at the listening position plenty LOUD enough for the average person who cares about preserving his or her hearing? Just curious...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Over the years of reading subwoofer tests by Tom Nousaine and others, it appears that a sub capable of hitting 105 dBs that Nousaine would have raved about 10 years ago would now be described by him as having only average or even "limited" output. I don't usually watch movies at superloud levels and I must confess to wondering this: If a sub was hitting 105 or 110 dB peaks, what would the sound pressure level be across the rest of the spectrum handled by the other speakers? Surely no one could stand to watch a movie for long at those levels. Isn't 90 dB bass at 30 or 40 Hertz at the listening position plenty LOUD enough for the average person who cares about preserving his or her hearing? Just curious...
I think you are absolutely correct. For music and most listening your are right on. The problem is that the ignorant Hollywood crowd boosted their effects 20db.

The whole concept of that decision I believe is flawed on every level. That is another of my many beefs about Hollywood and Lucas Labs in particular.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
It is a personal preference more than anything. It is a need vs want sort of thing...but of course, plenty of headroom never hurts you in either category.
 
croseiv

croseiv

Audioholic Samurai
I love bass!!!!!:D I think low frequency energy is addictive.
 
darien87

darien87

Audioholic Spartan
Will a 4-Cylinder Honda get me back and forth to work? Of course it will. But I sure as hell love dropping the hammer on my V-8 Mustang when I want to.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I love bass!!!!!:D I think low frequency energy is addictive.
We all like bass, but there is that matter of balance and proportion. When it is correct it is called elegance, when it isn't, I think the word that comes to mind is ugly.

I like elegance and proportion in everything. I have dubbed the age of my lifetime, "The age of ugliness". I'm encouraged that there are signs we are coming out of it. Somehow the Italians largely avoided it.
 
B

BC Dave

Audioholic Intern
I love bass too, but

I don't love 110 dB of blood-curdling screaming, discordant violin attacks (reminiscent of Psycho's shower murder scene) or glass shattering that accompanies most gut-wrenching bass hits. I find myself having to turn the volume up to catch the dialog and then catching hell from my wife when the volume spikes up during a dramatic moment. I must be getting old. I'll just get in my 95 horsepower Suzuki Esteem and drive home to bed...
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Over the years of reading subwoofer tests by Tom Nousaine and others, it appears that a sub capable of hitting 105 dBs that Nousaine would have raved about 10 years ago would now be described by him as having only average or even "limited" output. I don't usually watch movies at superloud levels and I must confess to wondering this: If a sub was hitting 105 or 110 dB peaks, what would the sound pressure level be across the rest of the spectrum handled by the other speakers? Surely no one could stand to watch a movie for long at those levels. Isn't 90 dB bass at 30 or 40 Hertz at the listening position plenty LOUD enough for the average person who cares about preserving his or her hearing? Just curious...

The recording studio for movies records at a level to be 85dB spl average? LFE is to reproduce special effects, not musical instruments and, such effects are usually louder, much louder to have an impact on the audience.
A gunshot that is hardly heard unless it is in a distant scene, is just not very realistic.
Loud LFE levels do not necessarily mean that the rest of the soundtrack will loud as well.

Also, consider the ear's response at perceiving loudness at different frequencies and levels.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
I don't love 110 dB of blood-curdling screaming, discordant violin attacks (reminiscent of Psycho's shower murder scene) or glass shattering that accompanies most gut-wrenching bass hits. I find myself having to turn the volume up to catch the dialog and then catching hell from my wife when the volume spikes up during a dramatic moment. I must be getting old. I'll just get in my 95 horsepower Suzuki Esteem and drive home to bed...
Maybe the level balance in the sub is not set properly, hence the loud screaming to get loud LFE?
One answer might be to use the night mode, then the loud passages will be muted. :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
We all like bass, but there is that matter of balance and proportion. When it is correct it is called elegance, when it isn't, I think the word that comes to mind is ugly.
.
Yes, and the LFE can be adjusted to accommodate the listener either way.:D
 
croseiv

croseiv

Audioholic Samurai
We all like bass, but there is that matter of balance and proportion. When it is correct it is called elegance, when it isn't, I think the word that comes to mind is ugly.

What may be ugly to one man may be beautiful to another...:)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
What may be ugly to one man may be beautiful to another...:)
There is such a thing as classic proportion and balance. We have gone through an anything goes ugly era as a reaction to the appalling atrocities of the twentieth century. That was the genesis of "The age of ugliness". Art reflects the worlds around it. That is why I have surrounded myself with the musical ethos of more distant times. Although there has been good music written all along, but the intelligentsia have chosen to offer us the ugly and discordant. There is more wonderful music appearing now than at any time in my lifetime. So I see hope in the new generation. Unfortunately my generation, that came of age in the sixties, have been a stupid arrogant and depraved bunch in the main, and their art reflects it.
 
mouettus

mouettus

Audioholic Chief
I agree with the poster. I'm the first one to raise hand when it comes to "over-bass". It bugs the hell out of me. Talk about my 10" pounding at -5db while watching Batman Begins. It is disturbing nothing less. I like it to blend, not to stand out.

Those of you who are always researching the perfect sound, using pure direct and buying the most flat response speakers there is, only to get overwhelmed by the bass. I neved heard a gunshot hitting 20hz (exaggeration).
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Maybe the level balance in the sub is not set properly, hence the loud screaming to get loud LFE?
One answer might be to use the night mode, then the loud passages will be muted. :D
I agree but with some conditions. Of course level balance is key. Regular tv gets night mode and the sub is turned off. The commercials have too much bass. As you can see from my sig, I'm not mikec but for movies I like to go whole hog and because I'm a condo dweller I like movie hour to be over by 8:00 PM. I just watched AVP Requiem. When the space ship was on the screen I could feel the bass. I loved it. I should point out that I generally just have it loud enough to hear dialouge clearly. Even so, other parts get too loud. I only rented the movie for the sound and was pleased with the way my system handled it but really wonder what a better sub setup would sound like.

So even though I think some stuff is ugly in it's loudness, I still want to add an identical sub to be able to get a better LF response.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
I neved heard a gunshot hitting 20hz (exaggeration).
You ever see Mr. Brooks with Kevin Costner? I thought those gunshots were awsome. I think they were trying to relay what the impact would feel like. I thought my sub was gonna jump out of it's socks and run away. :)

Edit: To answer the OP's ?, More, I need more.
 
mouettus

mouettus

Audioholic Chief
So even though I think some stuff is ugly in it's loudness, I still want to add an identical sub to be able to get a better LF response.
Basically if I understand all you need is a better quality sub, not something bigger and louder!
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Over the years of reading subwoofer tests by Tom Nousaine and others, it appears that a sub capable of hitting 105 dBs that Nousaine would have raved about 10 years ago would now be described by him as having only average or even "limited" output.

That is because subwoofers have significantly improved over the past decade. An "average" decent subwoofer today is better than an "average" decent subwoofer of 10 years ago. So to stand out, it must be better than before.

The same situation, by the way, has occurred with other things. For example, cars are more reliable by far than they were 30 years ago. A car that was of average reliability 30 years ago would be dreadful by today's standards, and one from today of average reliability would be fantastic compared with the reliability of cars 30 years ago. So the standard for a "reliable car" has changed over the years.


I don't usually watch movies at superloud levels and I must confess to wondering this: If a sub was hitting 105 or 110 dB peaks, what would the sound pressure level be across the rest of the spectrum handled by the other speakers?

There is no telling what level the rest of the sound will be when the bass is at 105 or 110 dB. Assuming that you have set your system to give a flat response, it will depend upon what else is in the mix, and how loud the other sound was mixed relative to the bass.


Surely no one could stand to watch a movie for long at those levels.

Since you previously said "105 or 110 dB peaks" [emphasis added], that is probably not for long, unless the sound has little dynamic range and is constantly at or near the peaks.


Isn't 90 dB bass at 30 or 40 Hertz at the listening position plenty LOUD enough for the average person who cares about preserving his or her hearing? Just curious...

No, it isn't tremendously loud, as your hearing isn't nearly as sensitive near the low frequency limit of hearing as your hearing is to midrange (nor is it as sensitive at the high frequency limits of hearing). And loud very deep bass does not damage hearing at the same level as loud midrange and treble. And 90 dB, though loud for a constant level of midrange, is not terribly loud for the occasional peak.

Also, the measured output in a review will not necessarily tell you what level it would be in your room. Generally speaking, if you have a large room, to reproduce deep bass accurately, you need a subwoofer that would, in a small or medium sized room, be able to output prodigious amounts of bass.

And, if you are interested in all of the bass possible, as loud as it will be in normal situations, you will need a really good subwoofer to reproduce the lowest notes of a pipe organ. If you have ever heard such notes played loudly in a church or auditorium, you have felt your whole body vibrate. It is a bit like the way some earthquakes feel, and it takes a really good subwoofer to do that decently. This, by the way, is also relevant to the issue of proper balance. If your subwoofer is not flat down to 16 Hz, you cannot have a proper balance for the lowest note on a pipe organ. It should be able to reproduce 16 Hz, without audible distortion, as loud as you ever wish to play music with the lowest note on a pipe organ. Few subwoofers are up to playing such a note properly.

In the past, when playing music with an organ playing deep bass, I wanted to turn up the bass in order to have that vibration that should be felt on such occasions. That, however, meant an overemphasis on upper bass, not a flat response down to the lowest notes. But since I now have a pair of SVS CS-Ultra subwoofers set to give me a basically flat frequency response, I get that feeling without adjusting the bass control, thus having everything in its proper proportion and balance.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
There is no such thing as too much bass, but there is such a thing as out of balance. If bass is run too hot, most things will tend to sound muddy IMO. For action movies, that isn't too bad and many are already mixed that way anyway. For music though, a fine balance is CRITICAL for things to sound right. That is why my music and my movies have slightly different calibrations, and the most notable difference is in the bass level. It is only a few dB, but it makes a difference in the sound for sure.
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Just a quick correction, loud bass CAN hurt your hearing, you are just less sensitive to the pain. If you don't believe me stick your head in an SPL drag car.

OP, read up on Fletcher-Munson.

SheepStar
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Just a quick correction, loud bass CAN hurt your hearing, you are just less sensitive to the pain. If you don't believe me stick your head in an SPL drag car.

OP, read up on Fletcher-Munson.

SheepStar
I did NOT say that loud bass cannot hurt your hearing; I asserted that it would take more to hurt your hearing with very low frequencies than with midrange. Are you saying that that is wrong, or just that low frequencies can damage hearing, which, of course, it can?
 

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