.....other than SVS???

[Midcow2]

Defintive Techology has very good subs in Tower ..

Thanks to all. I mean it - appreciate all the great suggestions.

I re-read entire thread again and see "SMS-1" mentioned a few times but have no idea what it is.

What about the big Definitive Technology BP7000SC Bipolar SuperTower with an 1800 Watt Class D Amp for subwoofer

BP7000SC Specifications:
Dimensions: 8-15/16" W x 16-5/8" D x 52-1/2" H
Freq. Response: 11 Hz – 30 kHz
Nominal Impedance: Compatible with 8 ohms
Rec. Assoc. Amp.: 20 – 1000 Watts/channel
Driver Complement:
– Four 6-1/2" high definition cast-magnesium basket polymer upper bass/midrange drivers.
– Two 1" pure aluminum dome tweeters with silk surrounds.
– One 14" long-throw subwoofer coupled to two 14" infrasonic radiators.
Efficiency: 92 dB
Finish: Piano-Gloss Black or Golden Cherry
Retail: $2749 ea.

OR:

BP7001SC Specifications: with a 1500Watt Class D Amp for Subwoofer
Dimensions: 8-7/16" W x 15" D x 48" H
Freq. Response: 13 Hz – 30 kHz
Nominal Impedance: Compatible with 8 ohms
Rec. Assoc. Amp.: 30 – 600 Watts/channel
Driver Complement:
– Four 6-1/2" high definition cast-magnesium basket polymer upper bass/midrange drivers.
– Two 1" pure aluminum dome tweeters with silk surrounds.
– One 10" long-throw subwoofer coupled to two 10" infrasonic radiators.
Efficiency: 92 dB
Finish: Piano-Gloss Black or Golden Cherry
Retail: $1899 ea.

I looked at the Sunfire website and liked what I saw. Will check for dealers.

From the magazine The Absolute Sound I found these picks:
EPOS ELS ACTIVE SUBWOOFER $800
JAMES EMB-1000 $1495
REL BRITANNICA B3 SUB $1995
JL AUDIO FATHOMf112/f113 $2700/$3400
Then prices go through the roof for exotic subs.

Printed out the craigsub list link.

After April 15th I will start auditioning in earnest with all the great suggestions I've received. Trying to get my taxes done is a nightmare.

Thanks,

Eddie

That is a very very nice Def Tec towers and the sub should sound very good. The reason to use a separate sub is to have a crossover (50Hz, 80Hz, 100 Hz) for speakers which do not have low note, bass capability. If you set the cross-over at say 100 Hz then the manin fronts play all notes above 100 Hz and the sub is used for the house shaking notes below 100 Hz. Alos the lower notes typically take more power, but the 1800watt class D amp should be fine. However remember that power is logrithmic and not linear, so even though 1800watt sounds like a lot compared to 100watt it is really not 18 times as much. sound level is measured in decibels

Whisper: 15-25 dB
Background noise: about 35 dB
Normal home or office background: 40-60 dB
Normal speaking voice: 65-70 dB
Orchestral climax: 105 dB
CaptinKirk's listening level - 114 dB
Live Rock music: 120 dB+
Pain Threshold: 130 dB
Jet aircraft: 140-180 dB

======

In order for one amplifier to reproduce sound twice as loud as another in Decibels you need 10 times more wattage output. An amplifier rated at 100 WPC is capable of twice the volume level of a 10 WPC amp, an amplifier rated at 100 watts per channel needs to be 1,000 watts per channel to be twice as loud. In other words, the relationship between volume and wattage output is logarithmic rather than linear.

So , more simple put 1000 watts is twice as loud as 100 watts.

The 1800 watts is 2.25 times as loud as 100 watts
==========================================
Having said that I have some older DefTec BP2006TLs that have a sub abd they have pretty good bass sound even without the sub.

If you want T-Rex to shake the liquid in your drink in the media room at the same time it does in the move get the SUB otherwise my recommendation if either of the DevTech super tower are in your budget get them and if they don't provide enough bass you can always get a sub later.

=============

I currently have Dev Tec. ttahat is what the HT guy recommended when I put my system together 5 years ago. I upgrade AVR, DVD and TV. I split my ares into a media game room and den, which now the dog and I use the most). I read a review on the AV123 Rockets and was going to get them to upgrade my speakers; I like the wood finish and looks and they got very good reviews (within thier class). Then I joined this forum and they have convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt to stay with Dev Tech and upgrade to a better model. Problem is Def Tec is higher clasee especailly the 7000 series. I am not sure if I want to spend for the BP7000SC towers and CLR3000 but I would love too. I probably could talk the wife into it, but not right now we are ugrading carpet and furniture. If I wait until next year's bonus then it is a definite possibility

Oh i looked up SMS-1 for you, It is Velodyne SMS-1 Subwoofer Parametric EQ System $749 MSRP You need it in addition to a SUB

ProsAutomatic or manual subwoofer calibration
On-screen display
8-band fully parametric EQ
Includes microphone and various mounts
Multiple SMS-1 units can be daisy-chained
Works with any subwoofer
Cons3rd octave smoothed frequency response graph
Non independent EQ'd subwoofer outputs
Inaccurate (aggressive) auto calibration



Cheers (Mic Ultra),

 

[Warpdrv]

The SMS-1 is a subwoofer EQ that aids in the integration of your subwoofer to achieve a flat in room response for better bass. you can see the results on your TV and make adjustments on the fly to contour your bass response for best results in your particular room.

Most rooms can hinder your bass response with standing waves and nulls that can cancel out bass.

Velodyne DD series subs come with this built in. Or you can buy what ever sub you want and add a SMS-1 as and outboard unit.

They are great tools, and personally I'm not sure there are any "cons" to using one of these added into your system..

 

[jostenmeat]

I cross over at 80Hz with my B&W 804S and they are set to small so they get none of the bass. I use the SMS-1 and it's almost trivial to blend any mains with any sub with the options you are provided for slope, phase etc.

Huh? So you hi-pass your BW mains, and just roll-off the bass without a sub?? No, I presume it can't be, so let's say you ARE using a sub. Then you are at least "blending" by using a x-over. Perhaps you have adjusted phase. Perhaps you have chosen your x-over point in regards to the roll-off of your mains, or the volumes you obtain, or your room response as to minimize localized peaks from the boundaries+sub. Maybe I just don't get your grammar/wording... its trivial to blend?

There are other possibilities out there too but as far as I'm aware currently the SMS-1 provides the best compromise between cost, functionality and ease of use.

I would agree with functionality and ease of use. It costs more than most though, well, from what I've seen.

28hz? Now that's just silly. lol

Why is it silly? I mean, I only use a 2.0 system for stereo, but if that happens to be the best x-over point, why not use it? I wonder what x-over point people choose for rotary subs? FWIW, my mains' -3db point is at 24 hz.

...Or you can buy what ever sub you want and add a SMS-1 as and outboard unit.

They are great tools, and personally I'm not sure there are any "cons" to using one of these added into your system..

I didn't see the question you might have been addressing Warp, but I did recently read about certain situations where you might not want to use it, when considering combining it with Audyssey. (Cascading filters). IIRC, I think if any certain peak/null is relatively the same for the entire listening area, then using SMS is fine, or something like that. Don't quote me.

The Sms-1 will help with the primary listening position. If what I have learned is correct, Audyssey should be able to do what the SMS-1 does, and more.

 

[Warpdrv]

I didn't see the question you might have been addressing Warp, but I did recently read about certain situations where you might not want to use it, when considering combining it with Audyssey. (Cascading filters). IIRC, I think if any certain peak/null is relatively the same for the entire listening area, then using SMS is fine, or something like that. Don't quote me.

The Sms-1 will help with the primary listening position. If what I have learned is correct, Audyssey should be able to do what the SMS-1 does, and more.

The question was basically what is an SMS-1.

I'm not sure I would put my total amount of faith in Audyssey being used in a receiver or Pre-Amp to handle the job of EQ'ing my subwoofer/s.

I agree with you that the SMS-1 will generally only help with the Listening Position, as it was designed... Not the entire room... as far as Audyssey being able to do what the SMS-1 does with the flexibility makes me curious what you are basing your info off of... Is there currently a system made that will provide subwoofer only management by Audyssey other then the upcoming SVS AS-EQ1. I'll be very interested in seeing how this unit comes out. http://www.svsound.com/products/accessories/SVS_AudyessyFrontBack_CESpromo.pdf

I personally would rather have a completely separate EQ system for my subs then allow a receiver try to take that roll on... especially in an Automatic type scenario. Audyssey doesn't handle everything perfectly. YMMV

 

[AdrianMills]

Huh? So you hi-pass your BW mains, and just roll-off the bass without a sub?? No, I presume it can't be, so let's say you ARE using a sub. Then you are at least "blending" by using a x-over. Perhaps you have adjusted phase. Perhaps you have chosen your x-over point in regards to the roll-off of your mains, or the volumes you obtain, or your room response as to minimize localized peaks from the boundaries+sub. Maybe I just don't get your grammar/wording... its trivial to blend?

I guess you haven't read my other thread?
I have an ultra13. And yes, I think it's relatively trivial to blend most subs with most speakers with a tool like the SMS-1.

Why is it silly? I mean, I only use a 2.0 system for stereo, but if that happens to be the best x-over point, why not use it? I wonder what x-over point people choose for rotary subs? FWIW, my mains' -3db point is at 24 hz.

The vast majority of floor standers out there don't do bass as well as a good dedicated sub. Yes, you can pay a boat load and get floor standers that do good bass but really, most just don't do bass well. So crossing over at the point where sound becomes non-directional and rolling off the mains usually makes sense. There's also the amp factor; it takes a lot of grunt to make low frequency sounds and relieving an amp of the load so it has much more head room to avoid clipping is a good thing.

Besides that, 28hz is silly because very little content gets down that far when listening to music so unless someone is constantly listening to church organ music using a sub like that is just a waste of time and money.

For HT, 28Hz makes a little more sense, however, that's only if you have kickarse mains and an amp driving them with so much headroom you don't care about the extra load.

Rotary subs are designed specifically to deal with ultra low frequencies. I think I read that some have the cross over set to 15hz.

So how much output do your mains have at 30hz? Could they keep up with a decent sub at that frequency? How about at 60hz? And the frequency rating is only one part of the puzzle, even if they go low, do they sound good that low?

Anyway, I'm generalizing and as such there are always exceptions but for most people in most situations a 60 to 80hz crossover with a dedicated sub will be better for all the reasons listed above.

I didn't see the question you might have been addressing Warp, but I did recently read about certain situations where you might not want to use it, when considering combining it with Audyssey. (Cascading filters). IIRC, I think if any certain peak/null is relatively the same for the entire listening area, then using SMS is fine, or something like that. Don't quote me.

The Sms-1 will help with the primary listening position. If what I have learned is correct, Audyssey should be able to do what the SMS-1 does, and more.

I've tried using Audyssey and have spent quite a few hours with the mic in various positions but I can't say that I'm that impressed with the results in my room so I've disabled it. I then bought the SMS-1 and that made a much larger impact on what I heard. Yes, EQing in this way is very localized and has limitations but that doesn't bother me as it works a treat in my main listening position. The other people that I have around couldn't really care less about minor differences in the sound quality anyway so why go to the trouble of EQing the other seating positions?

What I haven't tried is to re-run the Audyessy sampling after I've EQed my sub flat with the SMS-1. I know others do this and find an improvement. This is going to help more the worse the room is I think and I don't think my room is that bad even though it's untreated.

 

[jostenmeat]

Warp... well, I happen to have a "fault" of believing everything this one dude says over at AVS, guy named Sanjay. My faulty memory tells me he would satisfied enough with Audyssey to not bother with the expense of an SMS-1. Pehaps I'm making too much out of that kind of statement. I know you know who I'm talking about. Heh, sorry. I do recognize that there are not a few who do not appreciate Audyssey so much. Plenty indeed.

It would be pretty cool to have an SMS-1 for my HT. But, I have a wide listening area so I'm hoping the MultiEq Xt helps a lot when I get to finishing the HT. I'll have to reread some other posts regarding the recommendations of applying sub EQ before or after running Audyssey. Some interesting stuff for sure.

Adrian, you're right, most subs will outperform speakers in output at 30-60hz. Ya, there's always exceptions, but one nice thing about a lower x-over (I totally imagine in my glorious noobyness) is that any existing phase issue will be relegated to those lower, less important frequencies. Now, I never met anyone who can comfortably, loudly sing 60hz, but I have heard even non-pros sing well below 80 hz. Regardless, we would hope that any time issue is well-taken care for, wherever the x-over.

Dunno man... ok I just looked up the definition of trivial:
http://mw4.m-w.com/dictionary/trivial

I think I was using definition "A", and you are probably using definition "B". I want to say that it's important, and you are trying to say that it's.... easy....(?)

I probably have double digit organ recordings, mostly Bach, but I would agree that in my personal setup a sub is a waste. I put the sub with the HT.

All of our help inevitably returns to Eddie. He is relatively newer to this, and I just wanted to make sure he wasn't going to run full-range towers w/ awesome extension + badazz sub to play Wagner.... without using a x-over!!! He said

I am now seriously thinking of buying only two great sounding floorstanders that go low in frequency and gradually over time build a system around them. However, I know the best thing to do is to purchase 2 great sounding musical floorstanders that go low in frequency and ALSO ADD A SMALL SUB to augment them and help out on bombastic Wagnerian Orchestral music.

I found that my stereo sounded better without the sub, but I didn't have the hardware at the time to do what I thought was necessary. That's all. I saw how gung-ho Eddie was on mains with excellent extension + great sub, and I was essentially just sharing my previously perceived difficulties. I think it's "trivial" to you... but hey! Now he knows what an SMS-1 is. He did ask after my original post.

And then of course I started babbling along. Cheers.

 

[kenhoeve]

Unbelievable wealth of info in this thread. All I would add is that I have audyssey and I would not entrust it to do total room correction for subs, it has it's limitation there(especially with only one). Second, and this is a loose one, for the type of music you listen to it demands very high accuracy. Theoretically speaking, a servo sub is the more proficient choice, but is still subject to the many other design considerations. However, all those being equal, the servo wins.

 

[AdrianMills]

Josten,

yes, in my setup it really was easy to integrate my sub with my mains but I'm sure that with different subs, main speakers and rooms it could be another story altogether. Still, the SMS-1 et al improves the chance of success. I did have problems integrating 2 subs even with the SMS-1 though; had some cancellation issues with the limited location possibilities in my room so I just gave up on 2 subs and sold the other one.

 

[jostenmeat]

Sorry to hear that. I sometimes wonder how nice it would be to add a 2nd sub to hopefully even out room modes (besides other obvious things) and it would be a bummer if it actually hurt SQ. Well, now you know and you won't have to keep wondering like me....

 

[Warpdrv]

Sorry to hear that. I sometimes wonder how nice it would be to add a 2nd sub to hopefully even out room modes (besides other obvious things) and it would be a bummer if it actually hurt SQ. Well, now you know and you won't have to keep wondering like me....

I have a more unlimited space and I started with a PB12-Plus/2 + SMS-1 and then added a PB12-Plus, it completely smoothed out the response in my room, so much I ended up with minimal EQ adjustments on my SMS. Since then I took out the PB12-Plus and replaced it with another Plus/2. I now have more sub then I need, but its nowheres near as clean bass as my new JL F112. The Plus/2's provide more then plenty amount of serious bass in my huge room, but I will be moving into a DIY scenario for cleaner more prodigious bass, just haven't had the time yet.

It is extremely unlikely a second sub would hurt SQ.....

Adrians problems with a second sub were more then likely 99% limited placement issues, but obviously YMMV.

 

[mike c]

question is, what was adrianmills' 2nd sub? was it the same brand/model as the first one?

 

[fired up]

You guys are SUPER GENIUSES in all things sub! Holy crap!

In all honesty I find the reading fascinating and your level of expertise superlative. It's just that a fair amount of the tech speak is going way over my head as I am not as technically astute as you. Thanks for the education! I like to think I am an individual with a teachable spirit.

We can afford the Def Tech speakers I referenced earlier in a prior post and have found a dealer that has them for audition. Dumb Question Time: If I buy the top of the line DT speakers with 1800 watt amp - isn't the crossover built in to the cabinet or user adjustable on the back panel or something? One more thing - someone PM'd me and told me that they need careful positioning because they have drivers that fire from the front and rear. What are we talking about here? 3 feet off the wall should be okay, right? Will the soundstage be different because of the driver positioning? They are - from what I have read online - reported as being GREAT speakers for both HT and music. I figure it is a win-win situation. If you think about it I would be spending the same amount financially if I bought a quality sub and quality floorstanders.

Thanks,

Eddie

OFF TOPIC: Why are some Sub amps Class D, H, AB, etc. What is the difference?

 

[mike c]

You guys are SUPER GENIUSES in all things sub! Holy crap!

OFF TOPIC: Why are some Sub amps Class D, H, AB, etc. What is the difference?

shhh, i kinda didn't read all those long posts above

re: amps classes ...

with regards to SQ, there's no difference how the wattage was produced, i.e. from class d, class AB ...

with regards to weight, the class d amps can produce lots of power i.e. 1000w in a package smaller than those class AB amps that produce a few hundred watts. = lighter sub = cheaper to ship

with regards to efficiency, the class d amps require less power from the wall to produce the same watts as compared to a class AB amp.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class_A_amplifier#Power_amplifier_classes

 

[fired up]

That means a class D amp will save on my electric bill? Seriously.

If so, then WOO-HOO! So long as there is no difference in SQ that would be the way to go. What do you think of my Def Tech idea? It was one of those l-o-n-g p-o-s-t-s.

Eddie

 

[mike c]

That means a class D amp will save on my electric bill? Seriously.

If so, then WOO-HOO! So long as there is no difference in SQ that would be the way to go. What do you think of my Def Tech idea? It was one of those l-o-n-g p-o-s-t-s.

Eddie

unfortunately, i have no experience with powered (subs in the) mains ...

if you get the powered mains, does that mean you dont intend to get a dedicated subwoofer anymore? if yes, i would still lean towards mains + sub for HT use ... placing the sub in the room is hard enough with finding the right location, but if the subs are in the mains, finding the right location is doubly hard because the highs go where the lows are.

 

[abboudc]

I have "powered woofers" in my mains. A few things to note:

1. They are not true subwoofers, regardless of what any manufacturer says or specs they claim. The enclosure size in the tower isn't big enough for a true sub. While it fills in the low end nicely, it doesn't thwap you in the chest like a dedicated sub.

2. Placement can actually be more difficult for two reasons -- the best spot for bass isn't necessarily the best spot for the tweeters. Also, in the case of powered woofers, they need to be near a power source unless you want to run extension cords across the floor.

I may be in the minority, but if i had to do it again, i'd get the non-powered version of my towers and buy a second dedicated subwoofer.

 

[AdrianMills]

Adrians problems with a second sub were more then likely 99% limited placement issues, but obviously YMMV.

Yes, I agree. Basically the 2 subs, a PB12 plus/2 and a PB12 plus, were stuck in 2 locations with no real room for maneuver. Maybe with a lot more tweaking I could have fixed the cancellation but, to be honest, the plus/2 was such a beast I didn't need any more output and with a flat FR at my listening position with it alone I had little motivation to spend more time on the issue.

I've still been tempted to try it out with another Ultra 13 though. Maybe I'd just collocate them if I bought another U13 though.

I'm a little envious of your Fathom. I'm also tempted to pull the trigger on a F113. Of course it's more a desire to own such a quality sub than a real need.

 

[Warpdrv]

I have "powered woofers" in my mains. A few things to note:

1. They are not true subwoofers, regardless of what any manufacturer says or specs they claim. The enclosure size in the tower isn't big enough for a true sub. While it fills in the low end nicely, it doesn't thwap you in the chest like a dedicated sub.

2. Placement can actually be more difficult for two reasons -- the best spot for bass isn't necessarily the best spot for the tweeters. Also, in the case of powered woofers, they need to be near a power source unless you want to run extension cords across the floor.

I may be in the minority, but if i had to do it again, i'd get the non-powered version of my towers and buy a second dedicated subwoofer.

Fired Up, Please take note on this post... I have heard this before about the built in subs in speakers, making the difficult for placement to achieve the proper balance in your room.

If you only have 1 place for those speakers to go and placement flexibility is at a minimum, this could be a problem. Personally I like a Direct Radiating speaker blended with a sub moreso then a Dipolar speaker like the DefTechs, but thats me and my opinion only. The DefTech's do really sound nice though, I have always liked them...

Yes, I agree. Basically the 2 subs, a PB12 plus/2 and a PB12 plus, were stuck in 2 locations with no real room for maneuver. Maybe with a lot more tweaking I could have fixed the cancellation but, to be honest, the plus/2 was such a beast I didn't need any more output and with a flat FR at my listening position with it alone I had little motivation to spend more time on the issue.

I've still been tempted to try it out with another Ultra 13 though. Maybe I'd just collocate them if I bought another U13 though.

I'm a little envious of your Fathom. I'm also tempted to pull the trigger on a F113. Of course it's more a desire to own such a quality sub than a real need.

The F112 is a TopNotch sub for sure, I really like its small nature and excellent build quality... its freakin heavy for as small as it is...

I think you could get as good of SQ with a high end DIY driver, there are tons of great products out there for DIY and for cheap. If you have the time and skill, it could be a rewarding adventure...

 

[dem beats]

I'm no way near as knowledgable as these folks, but, I will say a couple more basic and primitive things to consider.

#1 bass tends to be "omni directional". And as stated not always best to have where the mids/highs are.
Think in traffic, unless the it's a rattling junker it's hard to pin point who's vehicle is producing tons of low bass sound if well dampened. You feel and sense it more than turn you head and know where it is.

#2 You listen to orchestra music. Big scale music. I have always always beleive that there is no replacement for displacement. If you can, do not rely on towers to provide the deep bass you may be looking for.

These are generalities and something you, or your wife, may not want to hear. Especialy with subs you can't have deep rich sound without space or power. You can offeset one with the other, but you can have small and low wattage and still produce big clean sound.

#3 Is a bit of personal advice. Subs are a huge trend ATM in audio. It's also really hard to not get upgraditis, on this one. I would truely consider making sure that if you are looking to get big sound you do NOT go with towers that claim to cover the bass and stop the need for subs and get towers that really concentrait on accuracy and mid midbass and highs. Let something dedicated handle all of the heavy lifting. Buy once don't leave yoruself wanting, especialy when it comes to subs. Same can be said for mains too, but let the mains shine where they should and let subs shine where they should.

 

[haraldo]

That means a class D amp will save on my electric bill? Seriously.

If so, then WOO-HOO! So long as there is no difference in SQ that would be the way to go. What do you think of my Def Tech idea? It was one of those l-o-n-g p-o-s-t-s.

Eddie

Oh yes it will save you indeed, and I see quite a few advantages with class D amps:
- They are relatively cheap vs performance, which makes sense because they've got much smaller power supplies and no heatsinks, probably the two most costly items in an amp
- They draw less power
- Less heat = less airconditioning at summer
- Small form factor => May be located with/behind/under subwoofer (If you got monoblocks) => Shorter speaker wire
- The inherent high-pass filter in all Class D amps may influence treble response, but while used as sub amp, this is of no relevance practically or theoretically

Some of the best priced Class D amps at the moment are these Danish, that will probably be quite OK, even with the current $

Check this out:
http://www.acoustic-reality.com/
Class D amps based on Ice Power technology :-D
Up to 1000w @ 4 ohm!

And there's a webshop, you can order straightaway and they ship worldwide.

Cheers

Harald N