AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I mean the first ones, Phantom Menace, AOTC, ROTS. But after looking at the dvd details on the trilogy, it looks like those are also all done in 5.1 EX.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120915/dvd you can see where it says Dolby Digital EX.

There is no dolby 6.1 discreet, dts es 6.1 discreet is the only discreet 6.1 audio format, all 6.1 dolby digital is just 5.1 with the rear surround channel matrixed in, no real disceret rear channel. even dts has a matrixed rear surround channel, it's call dts-es which is different than dts-es discreet 6.1
The things they do to make money!

Bastards!:D

Oh, well, at any rate, discrete or matrix, any sound will be great coming out of those BP7001SCs and CLR3000!:D
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
most definitely... I got all my new stuff in, and have yet to watch a good movie with lots of action and surround... but that will be changing soon. But after playing some halo 3 this weekend, I really like how the BP10s sound as surround backs.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
most definitely... I got all my new stuff in, and have yet to watch a good movie with lots of action and surround... but that will be changing soon. But after playing some halo 3 this weekend, I really like how the BP10s sound as surround backs.
I bet!

Have a truly full-range all-around sound system is great.

Even your surround speakers (BP10s) are 20Hz-20kHz +/-6dB.
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
I just wish my surrounds were full range, but I don't think the BP2X would do too good of a job running full range.
 
B

bernernj

Enthusiast
So addressing the original question...those they have heard true 7.1 .....does is sound better?
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Well I'm with Pyrrho, I want to hear what I was intended to hear. If it's a 5.1 movie, even though my receiver can do 7.1 I still just want the 5.1

One thing Pyrrho, I am interested in reading your dolby link but it seems to be broken... got a fix?

On a side note, what's a "discreet channel?" Does that mean say in a 5.1 format, all 5 channels have their own significant audio programmed to them as opposed to having the same audio signal split up and divided over multiple channels?

Also, what is the preferable decoder for PS3 games? I am upgrading my PS2 shortly, and was wondering what the buzz is for the audio reproduction lately.
Sorry about the link:

http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/208_Dolby_Surround_Pro_Logic_Decoder.pdf

A discrete channel is one that is totally separate, like Dolby Digital 5.1 is 5.1 separate channels. Dolby Pro Logic is a matrixed 4 channel system in which the four channels are encoded or "reduced" to two channels; see the link above for how that is done with Dolby Pro Logic.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Actually, both Dolby ProLogic and Dolby ProLogic II takes the original 2-channel stereo signal and MATRIX them into multi-channel (4, 6, etc.).
...

With the original Dolby Pro Logic system, they start in the studio with 4 discrete channels. They then mix them together in a special way down to two channels. This can be "decoded", that is, you can re-separate out the four channels (which, of course, can never be quite perfect). They can do this because of the special way in which the channels are encoded. To read how this is done, see:

http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/208_Dolby_Surround_Pro_Logic_Decoder.pdf

The other DSP modes (DPL II, DPL IIx, and various other brands of matrix surround systems) create channels that never existed in the mixing studio.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
If matrixing is so bad, they why are there movies encoded in 5.1 EX? They are meant to be that way, so there is obviously no harm in having some of the surround info sent to the surround back speakers. To each his own, but I've never heard anything odd or bad while using the PLIIx or DD EX decoders on my 7.1 system, I only get a greater surround field. The logarithms used by the decoders are very good, after all the decoders are made by dolby, and you are listening to a dolby digital track most of the time, so I don't see where there would be any problems or issues with sound coming from somewhere it shouldn't.

I wouldn't say using a PLIIx or EX/ES decoder is adding distortion since it's a DSP, it's not like you are using the Cinema DSP found in yamaha receivers, which do add reverb and other undesireable effects, those decoders just redirect some of the sounds to where they ought to be, but aren't. The only difference between PLIIx and the DD EX decoder is that the PLIIx decoder will create a stereo surround back whereas the DD EX decoder plays the same sounds from both rear speakers in a 7.1 setup.

The first 3 Star Wars movies are all encoded in 5.1 EX so if you want to hear them how the director intended them to be, then I guess you need to get a rear center channel and use something with a DD EX decoder, and since the flags don't work proplerly on those discs, you have to manually turn them on, which doesn't add anything artificial to the original DD track.
"Matrixing" is a troublesome word, in that it is used to describe two different processes. The kind of matrixing that is done with Dolby Pro Logic (and the center rear channel in Dolby Digital EX and the matrixed version of dts-ES) is where they take, in the studio, more channels than the finished product can contain, and mix them down in a special way to fit on those fewer channels. To make life simpler, let us confine our discussion for the moment to Dolby Pro Logic (hereafter referred to as DPL).

With DPL, they have 4 separate channels in the studio. The front right, front left, front center, and rear (also called "surround", which is why it is "S" in the quote below). These four channels are then mixed together down to two channels in a special way:

The L and R inputs go straight to the Lt and Rt outputs without modification. The C input is divided equally to Lt and Rt with a 3 dB level reduction (to maintain constant acoustic power in the mix). The S input is also divided equally between Lt and Rt, but it first undergoes three additional processing steps:
• Frequency bandlimiting from 100 Hz to 7 kHz.
• Encoding with a modified form of Dolby B-type noise reduction.
• Plus and minus 90-degree phase shifts are applied to create a 180 degree phase differential between the signal components feeding Lt and Rt.
From:
http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech_library/208_Dolby_Surround_Pro_Logic_Decoder.pdf

Your DPL decoder at home reverses this process to give you 4 channel sound from a two channel source. This whole scheme was developed for theaters to use, so that there would only need to be two channels of sound on the film. There was not room on the film to easily add more channels, and also, this way, they could use existing projectors with two channel readers, which then feed the signal to a special decoder. But it also is perfect for two channel VCRs and 2 channel sound on analog TV.

Now, of course, they can do sound differently than when DPL was invented, and they can keep the channels totally separate from each other. Dolby Digital and dts (in their 5.1 versions) do just that.

Basically, the matrixed Dolby Digital EX and the matrixed dts-ES mix the rear center channel in the right and left rear in a manner similar to how the front center channel is mixed into the front right and left in DPL.

Now, finally, we can get to the other idea of matrixed sound, and that is where you make up channels that never existed in the original recording studio. This is what happens, for example, when you apply DPL IIx to an ordinary two channel CD. The recording studio did not have a mix for 7.1 sound; they had a two channel mix. The processing that is done at home in this case moves sound that was intended for the front right and left speakers to other places. Hence, it re-directs, or mis-directs, the sound to other places. Now, whether this creation of previously non-existing channels is a good thing or a bad one is a matter of preference. But it simply is not what was originally mixed, whereas the result of using DPL on a DPL encoded movie soundtrack is not creating any new channels that did not previously exist, but is only recreating what was in the mixing studio before it was forced onto only two channels.
 
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GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
So addressing the original question...those they have heard true 7.1 .....does is sound better?
No, it doesn't sound better, it sounds the same as 5.1, but there are two more channels. Will you get more enjoyment from 2 extra channels, maybe... th at's up to you to decide.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
No, it doesn't sound better, it sounds the same as 5.1, but there are two more channels. Will you get more enjoyment from 2 extra channels, maybe... th at's up to you to decide.
No, it does not sound the same. If it did, there would be absolutely no point in it at all, and it would be a total waste of money as well as wasted effort in setting up two more channels.

You are right, however, that whether one would get enjoyment from 2 more channels to justify the cost is up to the person deciding whether to buy it or not. Going to audition it at a local audio shop is not a bad idea, as there is nothing like hearing it for oneself to make up one's mind. Of course, if there is no local shop with a proper setup, then that will not be possible.
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
It does sound the same... dolby digital and dolby true hd sound different. 5.1 and 7.1 sound the same, but there are just 2 more channels, so sound comes from more directions, but it is the same quality of sound, so it sounds the same, unless he is asking if 5.1 dolby digital sounds the same as 7.1 PCM, then I would answer no. I guess there should be some specification as to exactly what is meant by does it sound better. If the question is, is the surround sound better with 7.1 as to 5.1, then yes I say so.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
It does sound the same... dolby digital and dolby true hd sound different. 5.1 and 7.1 sound the same, but there are just 2 more channels, so sound comes from more directions, but it is the same quality of sound, so it sounds the same, unless he is asking if 5.1 dolby digital sounds the same as 7.1 PCM, then I would answer no. I guess there should be some specification as to exactly what is meant by does it sound better. If the question is, is the surround sound better with 7.1 as to 5.1, then yes I say so.
Now I think I understand what you mean. When you say, "it sounds the same", you appear to mean that the sound quality is the same. But it does not really sound the same, because sound coming from 7.1 places tends to sound different from sound coming from 5.1 places, so it does not sound the same, it sounds different. But the quality is the same.

If you think I am being too pedantic, consider how you might react if someone said that stereo and mono "sound the same", and that both of those "sound the same" as 5.1 audio. They might all have the same quality of sound in their channels, but they will not sound the same.
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
It's all symantics I guess... it just depends on how you look at it. 7.1 sounds the same as 5.1 if you think that certain effects will now come from the rear instead of the side since you have the speakers back there. Explain to me how they sound different, aside from the extra two channels sound can come from.
 
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Geno

Geno

Senior Audioholic
I've had 7.1 for a few years now, and it's not that big a difference in my particular installation. I sit at the back of my HT room under ceiling mounted rear speakers, which are just a few feet from my side surrounds. The only 7.1 movie I'm aware of is "3:10 to Yuma" on BD. The 7.1 uncompressed PCM audio on that movie is spectacular, and the surround effects were noticeably more enveloping than anything else I've experienced. Unless you have a pretty large room and sit some distance from the back wall, I doubt if the difference between 5 and 7 is anything to get excited about.
Of course, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong;)
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
There are actually a decent number of movies that have 7.1 but since some of them are in dts-hd ma and since most peoples players can't decode that, all they get is the core 5.1 track.
 
Jack Hammer

Jack Hammer

Audioholic Field Marshall
It's all symantics I guess... it just depends on how you look at it. 7.1 sounds the same as 5.1 if you think that certain effects will now come from the rear instead of the side since you have the speakers back there. Explain to me how they sound different, aside from the extra two channels sound can come from.
The op did specifically ask how "true 7.1" sounds. I take that to mean a BD with a 7.1 soundtrack, like 3:10 to Yuma. I can tell you that sounds great and you most definately do not get the exact same sounds from the side surrounds as the rear surrounds.

Because apparently we have to use symantecs to answer the ops question, I am specifically refering to a soundtrack with 7.1 discrete channels of audio in this reply. OK:)

Jack
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
A discreet 7.1 sound track sounds good, but how good it sounds all depends on how it's mastered. For instance the core dts track on the most recent Die Hard movie is said to be reference quality, whereas some of the lossless tracks on other discs don't match up to that. It's nice having those extra channels for sound, especially if there is something panning around the room, like a helicopter flying in a circle, it makes the pans much smoother. I say if you can do 7.1 go for it.
 
B

bernernj

Enthusiast
Yes I did mean DD True HD/DTS MA/ PCM in 7.1 (not matrixed) I know there are a few out there but my PS3 can't decode the DTS MA so that takes out most of them.....but basically I was trying to decide if I should just spend more on a 5.1 system or "spread" the money out over a 7.1 system.....I think better speakers in a 5.1 will sound better than slightly inferior speakers in a 7.1, since I am on a budget
 
GlocksRock

GlocksRock

Audioholic Spartan
Most definitely go with the better speakers, unless you think you will have the money to get your extra 2 speakers soon. Sony and dts are working on getting the PS3 to be able to decode dts-hd ma, so I would say in the next few months you will be able to enjoy 7.1 from dts-hd ma.
 
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