Exactly.
The bottom line is that there will be no minds changed here on this forum. There's a group that supports the war and Bush, and there's a group that doesn't (both here and in real life, of course). The more vocal of us aren't going to have our minds changed, and the conversation just degenerates to name calling and head shaking...
But to answer your attack/question a bit, Halon -- I don't see there being a lot left to say about the matter. We don't like the war (losing lives, wasting TONS and TONS of money, based on lies) and we don't like Bush (unilateral, dumb as a stump, embarrasment to the great country of the USA). For some reason, you like those things. You jump on Joe as if he's a politician and should have his own platform on all issues. Perhaps you guys have some history, or perhaps I missed something, though.
Do keep in mind that as you continue to accues Joe (and, presumably, me) of the same old left-wing rhetoric, you're doing exactly the same thing, but from the other side (as Joe has pointed out). Do keep in mind, though, that you are part of the minority that continues to support the war and Bush. That's because most people in this country, and the world I believe, have come to believe, for whatever reasons of their own, that the war and Bush are not the right thing for the US and/or the world. Yeah, we took out a brutal dictator, but at what cost? As I've pointed out before, there are plenty of brutal dictators and repressive regimes, but we don't run around getting rid of them and "spreading democrary". And, yeah, I know it's the same old left-wing rhetoric, but remember that the war was never sold to us as getting rid of a brutal dictator (it was offered as a side note).
In my opinion, most of the people that remain dedicated to the war and Bush are one of a few groups.
1) simple boneheaded Republicans that are just so "straight ticket" that they don't know what else to do (though many have denounced Bush as ruining the R party, and many look back to the days of Reagan).
2) religious people that can't separate for any reason.
3) vets
4) people that just don't know any better, and believe what they were told and told and told and told, and for some weird reason, they trust the government (I think this might apply to a lot of older people and I find my mom doing this; it's quite disappointing).
Whether we were for the war or not for the war in the beginning, it seems that many of the rest of us have overcome these feelings to come to the belief that we are headed in the wrong direction. I would guess that the continued base of support that the war and Bush have (I think it's around 20-30%) has hit its relative low. IIRC, there are a few presidents out there that have had lower ratings (yeah, yeah, how long till someone says Jimmy Carter?), but Bush is way down there.
Anyway, I think by this time, we've all had our minds made up. Our minds aren't going to be changed by arguments on this forum. Things will be much more clear in 10 or 20 years.
Have a nice day.
Otto - good post, and I appreciate your points of view. Yeah, Joe and I have a history of battling it out on politics, but secretly we're best buddies outside of AH, and we like to put on a good show for the forum members.
Seriously, I do get empassioned about these things because I see too many people falling into the trap of complacency, apathy, disregard of world affairs and our involvement in them, and the most alarming of all, total pacifism with a world full of evil closing in around us. As repeatedly stated, I am not a Republican, not a Democrat, as party favortism is not going to improve the situation one bit. But the reason I consistently attack liberals (Democrats, etc.) are for a few reasons:
1.) They constantly undermine our troops who are putting their life on the line serving the country they swore to serve.
2.) They have proven themselves as capable of only lies, deceit and other gutter tactics for personal ambition (Hillary as a prime example...)
3.) They have become so bold as to introduce socialist ideas into the American culture, cleverly labeled as "change" and "health care reform", and "Baby Bonds" and "Re-distribution of wealth" (one of the pillars of a socialist/communist society mind you), in a time of complete dissatisfaction of a self-serving American public who has not even bothered to properly educate themselves on the issues at hand before picking sides. P.T. Barnum himself could not have envisioned a better circus act.
4.) Short term memory and/or amnesia - they abandon their principles once they are no longer useful in aforementioned personal ambitions and claim they never stood for/voted for said principles and/or policies, laws, and above ALL else... the decision to go to war with Iraq.
5.) The democratic party is not what it was 50 years ago. The new Democratic party is a front for socialist agendas, its only intent to foul the channels of American success and render our country (and the people within) vulnerable to every wolf and vulture in the global forest.
So. With that said, do I put all of my faith in the Republican party? Hell no, I do not. I do not agree with many of their views, some of which include religion and/or abortion. I do not believe they have come to a viable solution regarding tax cuts and/or federal spending, and NOBODY has solved the social security issue as of yet. But to me, there are two issues that are as synonomous with each other as they are seperate and distinct: Protecting our borders, and fighting terrorism outside of the US on their own turf.
So take Bush - I'm not a fan, and he sounds like an idiot every time he speaks. But tell me this - what exactly did he lie about? And before you answer, please be prepared to offer conclusive evidence, because anything else is pure speculation and conspiratorial theory.
Bush's approval rating is in the toilet because the American public has largely concluded that the whole situation in Iraq is completely his fault (and that he caused hurricane Katrina, and the midwest floods, and all sorts of other happy horses**t). As stated, it took dozens from both sides of the party fence to vote us to war back in 2003 - This. Argument. Is. Invalid. And what is feeding the American public? Oh, the liberal media.
Everyone is upset over the loss of American lives and why shouldn't they be? I'm outraged anytime one of our soldiers loses his life. Period! But, what is the alternative? Withdraw, let the terrorists set up camp, and sooner or later we WILL be facing larger loss of life on OUR soil, and from CIVILIANS like you and me.
Speaking of amnesia... people balk when things like this are said. Fine and well, but I haven't forgotten the lessons of 9/11. This isn't a TV show - this is real, and these people are gunning for us every - single - day.
