When is justice to be served?

[Halon451]

Illegal immigrants is an issue here, there are many many coming from all over, and they throw away all their ID's and "sand" their fingers so that the fingerprints are not there anymore....
Hence, impossible to identify... So we cannot send them anywhere, because we don't know where to send them. This is quite annoying because it takes resources from people that try to follow the rules... I believe immigrants must obey the rules!!
I guess there are many "economic" immigrants, coming to the country doing nothing, they don't want to work and then they complain because they're not getting enough help.

Issues asides, there's a very liberal immigration policy, and we're doing a lot to help people from countries where people need help... This also goes fro Sweden and Denmark.
Are you aware that the City of Soedertelje in Sweden housed about as many refugees from Iraq last year as the whole of US!

Immigration is very fine, but the immigrants should get sweat on their hands and do some descent work !!!!

You could certainly get to Norway and work, I don't think descent guys from the US would have a problem, I'm not quite sure how the rules are, but generally it shouldn't be a problem. Guess you need a Visa or something, but there are so many people from the US working around here...
Yes, you could own a property, but must be Norwegian citizen to vote

I'm working in the IT industry and there's a huge demand for IT professionals, there are way more requests for positions than what we are able to fulfill.... A result of the high oil prices and a great many projects happening in the Industry, we live very well here now...

Some of you guys would enjoy North of Norway in the summer, like Tromsø and Hammerfest (the northernmost city in the world). With the midnight sun it's light as in the middle of the day.... at midnight - Remember sunglasses !

I could say a lot of things, but right now people out there's claiming that this is amongst top three countries to live.
Another landmark city, Copenhagen and Denmark. A city you have to visit, I love Denmark and Danes are amongst the friendliest people in the world (As long as you're not Swedish and visiting Denmark )

Norway houses the closest population of Krell Amplifiers in the world

I could write heaps more, more coming up later if you like !!

Regards

Harald N

Well, if the IT thing ever falls through for you, you always have a career as a Travel agent, advertising for Norway destinations! Sounds like a cool place - I'll have to put it on my list of "Places to See in the World".

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Or don't - the beauty of it is I could care less.

Why should I bother giving you a well-researched answer when this is your attitude? (Republicans are blind and have no memory, which is why I gave up trying to convince them of the truth years ago.)

 

[Halon451]

Why should I bother giving you a well-researched answer when this is your attitude? (Republicans are blind and have no memory, which is why I gave up trying to convince them of the truth years ago.)

Yeah the truth you say. The reason I said I don't care is because I know nothing I say will change your mind, and that's fine - I don't expect to, it's your opinion and you're certainly entitled to it. But it frustrates me to no end when I attempt to draw a liberal into a worthwhile discussion after they spout off random anti-Bush rhetoric and they've really got nothing to back it up with. So instead, all I hear is repetitive simple sentences, what's next, Bush hates black people? Oh wait, that's been done already...

It's not even about Bush anymore, as far as I'm concerned - he's on his way out and I'm looking at what's attempting to come in and take his place. I haven't agreed with Bush 100% by a long shot on many occasions, but I'm not going to get wrapped around the axle on it either. The decision to go to war was not Bush's alone, so you can lay that one to rest immediately. So, you indicate that you want to see a fully Democratic government in place - one that has in recent years turned the democratic process into a circus, and had cleverly disguised anti-American and socialistic ideals as a platform for "Change".

As neither a Republican nor a Democrat (proud Independent), I am simply an American wanting to see my country preserved in the best way possible. And my friend, the Democrats are not the ticket to glory.

 

[haraldo]

As neither a Republican nor a Democrat (proud Independent), I am simply an American wanting to see my country preserved in the best way possible. And my friend, the Democrats are not the ticket to glory.

Are you thinking that no matter who wins in November, things are not going to change much

 

[Rickster71]

Some of you guys would enjoy North of Norway in the summer, like Tromsø and Hammerfest (the northernmost city in the world). With the midnight sun it's light as in the middle of the day.... at midnight - Remember sunglasses !

I could say a lot of things, but right now people out there's claiming that this is amongst top three countries to live.
Another landmark city, Copenhagen and Denmark. A city you have to visit, I love Denmark and Danes are amongst the friendliest people in the world (As long as you're not Swedish and visiting Denmark )

Norway houses the closest population of Krell Amplifiers in the world

I could write heaps more, more coming up later if you like !!

Regards

Harald N

Thanks Harald, for taking the time for such an interesting reply!
Well done; to say the least.
regards,
Rick

 

[Halon451]

Are you thinking that no matter who wins in November, things are not going to change much

My thinking is that they will either not change much, or I fear they will change a LOT.

 

[haraldo]

Thanks Harald, for taking the time for such an interesting reply!
Well done; to say the least.
regards,
Rick

Thanks

My thinking is that they will either not change much, or I fear they will change a LOT.

Scary, or perhaps not

 

[markw]

You're shootin' blanks, Joe.

Why should I bother giving you a well-researched answer when this is your attitude? (Republicans are blind and have no memory, which is why I gave up trying to convince them of the truth years ago.)

It's "clever" rhetoric like that that avoids straight answers that caused the Dems to somehow snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in 2004 and, unless things get better fast, history just might repeat itself.

And, I'm no great fan of Bush, either. Nor was I one in 2004 either.

But, I suffer electile dysfunction this year. Nobody running really turns me on and I just may have to go for what I perceive as the lessor of the evils. or the one who tells me what I believe is feasible, not simply what I want to hear.

 

[haraldo]

Right now, where I live it's sunny, blue skies, not a cloud and the temperature is:74 degrees F. Living in Miami is a kin to living in a tropical paradise, but with all the annoyances of a major city.

Hey Stratman, we could need to borrow some of the Miami warmth around here, we're freezing, it's down below 20 Fahrenheit (-7 Celsius)

 

[Joe Schmoe]

My thinking is that they will either not change much, or I fear they will change a LOT.

Changing a LOT would be a good thing. Things need to be run as much differently from the current administration as possible.

 

[Halon451]

Changing a LOT would be a good thing. Things need to be run as much differently from the current administration as possible.

Okay Joe, have it your way. No more arguments out of me okey dokey? You have proven yourself completely incapable of offering sound judgement and/or reasonable data to support your belief, all because I ask for it - I am tired of hearing the same old left-wing rhetoric, if I wanted to hear that I could simply turn on the TV. No, instead I offer you the chance to show me something I haven't seen or heard yet, to offer a clue as to why your method is the best for this country, but the reality of it is, you have none. As I mentioned before, the only thing you seem to be capable of is regurgitating anti-Bush sentiment, and my hunch is that you really don't even know why you're doing that, because you're also regurgitating the same old tired reasons for the anti-Bush movement, and that you've never really had anything substantial to say from the beginning.

Not merely drawing a bead on you for the sake of doing so Joe, trust me - I've gotten into plenty of discussions and debates with liberals both inside and outside of AH here, and always enjoy a good intelligent conversation, where real ideas are presented from both sides of the debate, but you're an empty vessel my friend.

If you get your way I'll see you on the other side of oblivion...

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I am tired of hearing the same old left-wing rhetoric, if I wanted to hear that I could simply turn on the TV. from both sides of the debate, but you're an empty vessel my friend.

And I am equally tired of hearing right-wing horseshit, especially attempts to justify a war that cannot be justified.

 

[OttoMatic]

And I am equally tired of hearing right-wing horseshit, especially attempts to justify a war that cannot be justified.

Exactly.

The bottom line is that there will be no minds changed here on this forum. There's a group that supports the war and Bush, and there's a group that doesn't (both here and in real life, of course). The more vocal of us aren't going to have our minds changed, and the conversation just degenerates to name calling and head shaking...

But to answer your attack/question a bit, Halon -- I don't see there being a lot left to say about the matter. We don't like the war (losing lives, wasting TONS and TONS of money, based on lies) and we don't like Bush (unilateral, dumb as a stump, embarrasment to the great country of the USA). For some reason, you like those things. You jump on Joe as if he's a politician and should have his own platform on all issues. Perhaps you guys have some history, or perhaps I missed something, though.

Do keep in mind that as you continue to accues Joe (and, presumably, me) of the same old left-wing rhetoric, you're doing exactly the same thing, but from the other side (as Joe has pointed out). Do keep in mind, though, that you are part of the minority that continues to support the war and Bush. That's because most people in this country, and the world I believe, have come to believe, for whatever reasons of their own, that the war and Bush are not the right thing for the US and/or the world. Yeah, we took out a brutal dictator, but at what cost? As I've pointed out before, there are plenty of brutal dictators and repressive regimes, but we don't run around getting rid of them and "spreading democrary". And, yeah, I know it's the same old left-wing rhetoric, but remember that the war was never sold to us as getting rid of a brutal dictator (it was offered as a side note).

In my opinion, most of the people that remain dedicated to the war and Bush are one of a few groups.

1) simple boneheaded Republicans that are just so "straight ticket" that they don't know what else to do (though many have denounced Bush as ruining the R party, and many look back to the days of Reagan).

2) religious people that can't separate for any reason.

3) vets

4) people that just don't know any better, and believe what they were told and told and told and told, and for some weird reason, they trust the government (I think this might apply to a lot of older people and I find my mom doing this; it's quite disappointing).

Whether we were for the war or not for the war in the beginning, it seems that many of the rest of us have overcome these feelings to come to the belief that we are headed in the wrong direction. I would guess that the continued base of support that the war and Bush have (I think it's around 20-30%) has hit its relative low. IIRC, there are a few presidents out there that have had lower ratings (yeah, yeah, how long till someone says Jimmy Carter?), but Bush is way down there.

Anyway, I think by this time, we've all had our minds made up. Our minds aren't going to be changed by arguments on this forum. Things will be much more clear in 10 or 20 years.

Have a nice day.

 

[Rickster71]

In my opinion, most of the people that remain dedicated to the war and Bush are one of a few groups.

1) simple boneheaded Republicans that are just so "straight ticket" that they don't know what else to do (though many have denounced Bush as ruining the R party, and many look back to the days of Reagan).

2) religious people that can't separate for any reason.

3) vets

4) people that just don't know any better, and believe what they were told and told and told and told, and for some weird reason, they trust the government (I think this might apply to a lot of older people and I find my mom doing this; it's quite disappointing).

I'm curious as to how you would classify Democrats, using the same 'grouping' method?

 

[markw]

I think you misspeak when you say "we" support the war and Bush.

"We" simply face the facts as they exist today. Bush got us into a war that he shouldn't have. Hindsight os 20/20.

Short of turning back time, there's no way of escaping the facts that :

a) Bush is our president for a second term due to the lack of viable options "you" provided us with in 2004.

b) We have people overseas fighting an unpopular war that need our support. Do you want us to simply withdraw them and let the chips fall where they may?

Now, to say that people actively "support" the war itself is a mis-statement. That's like saying that people "support" aids and poverty. It's not matter of support. It's a matter of accepting that these are simply current problems in search of a workable solution.

Bush is on the way out, change is inevitable. There goes one of your gripes right there.

The war will be the next presidents problem. How they deal with it could either improve the situation or make it worse. Unless you want them to simply withdraw all troops at once, thereby creating even more problems in the long (and short) run, will be with us for a while.

To say that people "support" the situation is a total mischaracterization, which seems to be the fuel of the left. And, to those who say those things, I ask what alternatives do you propose?

Again, had you said some people "accept" the complexity of the current situation and welcome workable alternatives would be more accurate.

So far, I don't see anyone coming up with a good answer for this. A lot of finger-pointing and denial of complicity, yes, but solutions, no.

Oh, I'm a veteran and think, in hindsight, that the war was a mistake. But, since the whole world then believed he had WMD's and he isn't Paul Atreides, I'll go somewhat easy on the guy. But, once we were committed, we're there for the whole show.

 

[OttoMatic]

I'm curious as to how you would classify Democrats, using the same 'grouping' method?

Please re-read. I didn't classify Republicans. I classified war/Bush supporters.

Thanks!

 

[Rickster71]

Please re-read. I didn't classify Republicans. I classified war/Bush supporters.

Thanks!

I didn't say you classified Republicans.
Thanks!

 

[Joe Schmoe]

a) Bush is our president for a second term due to the lack of viable options "you" provided us with in 2004.

If you are definining "not viable" as "not republican" then this statement makes sense. Otherwise, it does not.

As for pulling out and letting the chips fall where they may, I say yes, that is the best plan. People were killing each other in the middle east long before we got there, and will continue doing so long after we are gone, so we might as well cut our losses. (An even better plan would have been to not go there in the first place.)

 

[OttoMatic]

Bush got us into a war that he shouldn't have.

Short of turning back time, there's no way of escaping the facts that :

We have people overseas fighting an unpopular war.

Bush is on the way out, change is inevitable.

the war was a mistake.

Well, at least we can agree on this now! Thanks!

Seriously, though, I don't care to argue about semantics. "You", "we", "support", "accept" whatever. I will comment a little, but I won't argue over this. I personally "accept" but do not "support" the war. I "accept" it as reality because I have to. Regardless of your personal feelings, I believe that there are people that actually do "support" the war.

But, since the whole world then believed

I know this is left-wing rhetorical talking point garbage, but my opinion is that people/governments/whoever believed that because the US (i.e., the Bush Admin) repeated it, ad nauseum, until people "accepted" it. If the US had said that UN sanctions were working, Hans Blix was effective, and that Sadddam was under control, there would be no thought that Hussein/Iraq had WMD. And people complain that the Clintons are liars (and they are!)... Bush is the biggest liar of all.

For the record, I don't necessarily advocate pulling all troops out tomorrow. I'm not a foreign policy analyst, and I don't have all the answers. However, as you noted, there are no solutions here, only name calling and finger pointing. Still, I would recommend a change in the war effort. Removing troops instead of a "surge." A forced effort to get Iraq to have its own government. A lower reliance on foreign oil (we would NEVER, EVER be there in the first place (and I'm talking wayyyyyyyyyyyyy before the Iraq war) if it weren't for oil). And so on, and so on. I happily admit that I don't have the answer, and I don't have to. The answer, for "normal" people like me, is "change." You don't even have to take that as anti-Bush. It's just utterly apparent to me that the current direction isn't working, and we therefore have to try something else.

he isn't Paul Atreides, I'll go somewhat easy on the guy.

I don't get the Paul Atreides reference (I see it's something to do w/ Dune, but I missed that book/movie series). If you're talking Bush, why would you go easy on the guy?

But, once we were committed, we're there for the whole show.

I really don't understand that. That's like saying "I'm headed for the airport, and I'm not stopping, and I don't care about the fact that I just got a flat tire."

 

[OttoMatic]

I didn't say you classified Republicans.
Thanks!

Sorry. To me, your request for me to "classify Democrats" was a sarcastic implication that I had classified Republicans.