Format War Pricing Aftermath: Blu-ray Up, HD-DVD Down

[Johnd]

If you are not going to run 1080p with HD audio why buy an HD player when you will be fine with DVD?

I agree in principle Dezoris..but at what cost, and is it necessary?

Some people's vision is not all that good...or they're not discerning enough for 1080p. 720p on a 40" display is more than adequate at 10 or 12 feet. Heck, some think it's the cat's meow at 5 feet. And all 1080p is not equal. There are some 720p displays that appear better than some 1080p displays. And although HD audio is not present on SD, a properly upscaled SD is phenomenal in pq. I guess my position is there are many variables, and the different formats and resolutions is nothing new...really. It's more of the same old, same old, in a different package. I'm not telling you this (just kind of speaking out loud here), but this stuff is not created in a vacuum. Players, formats, displays etc., are developed by people all over the globe, and at different times. It may be nice to get all the brightest minds (engineers, designers) together with the best technology with the best manufacturer, but that is the double-edged sword of capitalism (competition). You get more, and lots of it, and it can appear disconcerted and sporadic because it's coming from here, there, and everywhere. Hopefully we'll get it together one of these days. But I have to say, I am loving my 70 HD movies on my three HD players on a large glass bead screen with True thumping through my servo 15...no complaints here. I'm a happy camper. Enjoy your weekend Dezoris.

 

[JackT]

If you are not going to run 1080p with HD audio why buy an HD player when you will be fine with DVD?

Gonna have to disagree somewhat with that. My TV is only 720p, but I absolutely get a benefit with HD content over 480p. 480p can look pretty good, though.

 

[Johnd]

So basically the argument has turned into:

HDDVD was cheaper but provided none of the HD features the format was designed to provide. But that is ok because its good for people who are not using the features anyway.

This is the mentality I do not understand at all.

I am not wanting of anything on my HD. I watch the movie, and listen to the track. Missing? I don't know what is, and I don't want to. 1080p/24Hz on a 120" glass bead screen with True thumping through a servo 15 and Studio 100's is where it's at...for me. Honestly, I rarely, if ever look at extras and features in movies...I rather watch another movie. Ironically, I was just watching the extras in Bullitt HD the other night. Pretty interesting, but not enough to make me watch it in its entirety. I flicked it off about halfway through. I say, give me another movie over extras and features anytime. But that's just me. I guess I'm easily pleased. Cheers, John

 

[Johnd]

Gonna have to disagree somewhat with that. My TV is only 720p, but I absolutely get a benefit with HD content over 480p. 480p can look pretty good, though.

Beat you to it Jack in my previous post.

I agree with you 100% (that 720p is somehow automatically inferior...it is not).

 

[JackT]

VHS players in 1978. (Crappy VHS still expensive? CARTEL! The market is broken!)
-CD players in 1984. (Too expensive! The consumer will never adopt these! Run for the hills FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!)
-DVD players in 1997. (Players still cost too much!! CAPITALISM NOT WORKING!!!)
-MP3 players in 1998. (How much for a crappy 512MB???? PRICE FIXING AT WORK!!! CONSUMER GETTING screwed!!!)

Please correct me if I am wrong, the above formats are classified as 'open source' whereas Blur Ray is proprietary, hence little impetuous from the manufactures to achieve economies of scale to reduce street prices.

I believe there are licensing consortia for the CD & DVD formats to whom a fee must be paid to produce a disc. No different that Bluray. (Not sure what licensing is for CD & DVD players, though.)

It amazes me that, no matter how many times the market proves its ability to produce very cheap and high quality consumer electronics goodies, we are still always ready to believe that THIS time it won't work, and the laws of supply/demand will be ignored for some sinister reason. When people aren't accusing manufacturers of being greedy, they are accusing them of not really wanting your dollar.

Count on this: somebody will find a way to do whatever it takes to get you to buy one of these things, and make money doing it.That means cheap manufacturing and low prices.

 

[JackT]

Beat you to it Jack in my previous post.

I agree with you 100% (that 720p is somehow automatically inferior...it is not).

On a 50" at my viewing distance, 720p is close to as good as you can see. However, I REALLY want a 60" so.........

 

[ParkerAudio]

You guys know the war is over right?
I don't see why this article is at all controversial. Bottom line, Bluray has got the consumer by the balls right now. What are you going to do about it? If you want HD movies and want a physical copy it is the only game in town.

 

[Jim Robbins]

So many replies!! What do I say first...

Microsoft is Awesome! I love them. Bow to Bill! *laugh* Just kidding... It's true, MS doesn't always do the best in the hardware arena. I do like gaming on my 360 better than my PS3, even though I am on my second unit. There's something about Microsoft's Achievement system that draws me in. Yeah, that's a software feature, but a nice one. MS is about software...

The PS3 works great for BD movies. And I have one of those IR receiver things (acquired with a Nyko remote) and I have had a lot of trouble programming my Harmony remote to get that thing to work correctly. It's about an 80% solution at this point. Again, the average guy won't want to spend $400 on a game console, nor does he want a game controller for his remote. He certainly doesn't want an 80% solution. Nor does he want an expensive solution that's 100% effective!

Don't worry, I was complaining about the cost of HD DVD back when it was more expensive. This hardware dumping stuff is great! Yeah, it's nice when hardware vendor's lose money and it benefits me!!! *laugh* But of course, the lack of money doesn't drive anyone to make anything better. It's just frustrating that this stuff costs a lot, when we have all the technology to do better with less bugs and more features.

I guess I am going to have to build myself some kind of HTPC and reprogram the whole dang thing from scratch! What needs to be done:

1. Cheap, like $199 for the unit.
2. Fully featured, like the HD DVD spec or BD 2.0
3. Lots of space on a disc. Heck, lets just jump up to 1TB.
4. Fast. None of this 45 seconds to boot up, crap!

Anyone have a few hundred million bucks they want to throw at the project? Or, perhaps some technology from a crashed alien space craft?

Later!!

 

[dobyblue]

Or, perhaps some technology from a crashed alien space craft?
Later!!

Tom Cruise might be able to help you there!

 

[allargon]

You will only hear the HDDVD adopters crying about Blu-Ray prices.
(Some Audioholics staff)
They went with Microsoft and got the shaft, should have known better.

Secondly the PS3 price has gone down which should be the only first generation BluRay player anyone should buy until we have 2.0 spec standalone players being sold off the shelf.

Nope. I complained about prices on both formats over a year ago--check crave. I still feel that for $600 a player should play SACD, DVD-A, Blu-Ray profile 2.0 AND record. It's pretty sad when a gaming console is as closet as it comes to that. The PS3 at least added DivX and WMV playback, so it's not entirely a bad thing.

 

[Alamar]

Hmm....

-- To the fan boys on both sides [myself included]: Get over it. Let's just, as a group and individually, try to make the best out of the situation.

-- As I've pointed out in several threads the price increase isn't surprising. It's a simple supply vs. demand issue.

-- To those people who think that the BD camp don't have the customer's [our] best interests in mind ... You're right. The companies are doing what they think is best for themselves. While I don't like it from a consumer POV if I was an executive, in the short term, I would likely do the same thing.

 

[Jim Robbins]

-- To those people who think that the BD camp don't have the customer's [our] best interests in mind ... You're right. The companies are doing what they think is best for themselves. While I don't like it from a consumer POV if I was an executive, in the short term, I would likely do the same thing.

Yeah, if I was a big international company, I'd be greedy and try to make a lot of money at the expense of my customers, too. That's what the stock holders want. That's what would pay my over-the-top executive salary.

But of course, I am the greedy consumer, who wants to have it all for virtually nothing... Penny's on the dollar at the expense of that previously mentioned company!!

Really, is there some middle ground? Is there a good feature set and a fair price to be had? Can't we just all get along?

Never mind... I am still greedy... Where's that cheap HD audio and video player with the low cost movies already....

 

[Alamar]

I don't really think that it's an issue of greed per-se it's just common sense economics.

For example if your [short term] maximum capacity to build units is just 3K units you are ablidged [all other things being equal] to sell those 3K units for however much you can get for them.

In the long term if you see a lot of demand for lower priced units then it would be worth your while to increase production capacity to meet that unfilled demand. This would tend to increase supply and hopefully drive down prices. Even with the increased supply though you'll still want to price your units as high as you can to maximize profits. [All other things being equal].

The only thing that would throw a kink into my plan would be if the manufacturers realized that they have to kill off not just HD-DVD but also basic DVD. The price competition there would be dramatic and is our best chance to see cheaper players soon. [Seeing that the Sony CEO implied that they weren't licensing BR to the cheaper manufacturers] ...

 

[PENG]

So basically the argument has turned into:

HDDVD was cheaper but provided none of the HD features the format was designed to provide. But that is ok because its good for people who are not using the features anyway.

This is the mentality I do not understand at all.

I am confused, please help! I thought the A30 and A35 can do 1080p/24 and the A35 can do all the HD sound formats plus it has 5.1 analog outputs.

BTW, I thought BD owner who paid high prices naturally feel better now that they see HD DVD die. HD DVD early adopters (some) may have reason to cry because they paid high prices just like the BD owners but at least the BD owners can count on continous supply of BD movies. I do think people who bought HD DVD players at fire sale prices with free movies are the winners because those players have very decent upconverters for SD DVDs.

 

[Johnd]

I am confused, please help! I thought the A30 and A35 can do 1080p/24 and the A35 can do all the HD sound formats plus it has 5.1 analog outputs.

BTW, I thought BD owner who paid high prices naturally feel better now that they see HD DVD die. HD DVD early adopters (some) may have reason to cry because they paid high prices just like the BD owners but at least the BD owners can count on continous supply of BD movies. I do think people who bought HD DVD players at fire sale prices with free movies are the winners because those players have very decent upconverters for SD DVDs.

Spoken like one who knows.

 

[Nomo]

You guys know the war is over right?
I don't see why this article is at all controversial. Bottom line, Bluray has got the consumer by the balls right now. What are you going to do about it? If you want HD movies and want a physical copy it is the only game in town.

Let's not kid ourselves here. Who here is actually surprised by the temporary spike in the BD players?
It is " the only game in town" as far as HD content is concerned anyway.
Unfortunately for Bluray, they still need to take on the DVD format.
What am I going to do about it?
As a HD DVD owner, I'll sit back and watch for a while. At least until the BD player prices drop below $200. Maybe not even then. I'm about out of shelf space, and the last thing I need is another White Elephant taking up space.

 

[stratman]

Blu-ray is facing the fight for it's life, the economy, the market, VOD.

1. The slowing economy removes CE from J6P's list of needs.

2. High prices coupled with item number 1, will stagnate any possible growth
for BD to expand into mass market.

3. Though plagued with issues, VOD is making ripples and young consumers
that can't afford BD players see it as an excellent option to expensive
hardware/software at any price point.

Will BD survive? For the time being. It needs to get into over-drive mode, slash software/hardware prices, start consumer "education" campaigns, if none of these issues get worked out, BD will be relegated to a niche market with a very short life span.

 

[mouettus]

DVD was not the only media offered? Still the price god down and down with time. So it has nothing to do with a war, with being "the only one in town".

btw i saw a couple dvd movies with a blu-ray intro that explained what it is and it was unskippable. So I guess they are making an effort at saying: "hey dvd people, you can have better" ... but give us your hard earned bucks. Buy that 600$ player that can't decode HD audio formats, buy a 150$ HDMI cable, buy 35$/pop movies, and then enjoy.

It's not a bad format at all. It got off to a bad start and still struggling and will eventually die faster than it should because of this exact same reason. Even being a person who doesn't care to shell a little more than others for technology, the thing I hate the most about hi-def is that it took me months to fully understand picture formats, resolutions, 24fps, 3:2 pulldown, hdmi versions, audio formats, internal/external decoding, yadda yadda. Can't they just put out a box that you plug in and everything works like dvd did at first?! And then just upgrade the reliability instead of "profiles".

They shot themselves in the foot there. All they do is put duck tape here and there to patch.

I would definitly love to rent my movies on a flash memory card. That would be awesome. No scratches, plenty of space, re-usable, less fragile hardware-wise, cheaper to make - lower prices.

I use my PS3 for rented movies and it's all I care. They lost my trust, price spike or not.

 

[deanmurphy]

All I can say with all this talk about pricing is that anyone who lives in the United States of America is amongst the luckiest in the world as far as pricing goes. Here in Australia (and I see it happens to some extent in the UK too) we get ripped off by the CE companies and other companies too. Thats why more people are beginning to order on Amazon.com and also import from overseas from other sources. When I look at pricing for CE equipment Australian RRP is usually about DOUBLE the U.S. price. Several years ago I found that acceptable as our dollar wasn't worth much more than 50 cents U.S. but our dollar now is almost worth the same as yours on the stock market and STILL our prices are double. A small example is the Harmony One remote. RRP here is $400.00. I can order this from the U.S. for 250.00 and still be way ahead after postage costs. Usually if a DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-Ray player etc costs $800.00 in the U.S. it will be at least $1,500.00 here. Not sure if this will change. It hasn't yet. Unless someone knows something I don't I just cant see the justification in this.

Sorry for the rant,

Dean.

 

[Johnd]

All I can say with all this talk about pricing is that anyone who lives in the United States of America is amongst the luckiest in the world

Thank you for reminding us of that Dean. It is far too easy to forget at times.

As far as current HD DVD pricing, you have the best pricing in the world right now...at least as far as about half of the HD titles. Electronic pricing can be all over the board. But you're just a hop, skip and and a jump from Japan, so it's convenient for Aussies to cash in on some of those deals. But I know what your saying...I know a number of people from Oz (and Tasmania). You have a great country in your own right. Cheers, John