Format War Pricing Aftermath: Blu-ray Up, HD-DVD Down

[Johnd]

You say this, yet not an hour ago acknowledged in another thread that the pricing changes between January and March are "perhaps" normal for a/v products.

Which is it? The misrepresentation is glaringly obvious.

C'mon. Are you really 15? This isn't that complicated. Why can both not be true? Mr. Waratuke's report is tantamount to a quarterly report (a microcosm, as it were:ytd retail sales pricing of BD players). He did not state why BD prices are inclining, but alluded to the fact that there may be multiple reasons. It is quite possible that the next "quarterly report" will show a decline in prices. Possible. Likely? I doubt it.

 

[Jim Robbins]

<Rant>

You will only hear the HDDVD adopters crying about Blu-Ray prices.
(Some Audioholics staff)

I don't cry about hardware. I complain... And when I complain, you'll hear it! Am I audioholics staff? Well, probably not "Staff" but a contributing writer sometimes. And yeah, the end of HD-DVD bugs me. I like completed specifications. I like cheaper prices. I like HD video and sound.

They went with Microsoft and got the shaft, should have known better.

As a full time software developer who programs on the MS platform every day, I know full well, that Microsoft succeeds more often than they fail. And heck, if MS really wanted to put their heart (and money) behind HD-DVD, it wouldn't have failed.

Secondly the PS3 price has gone down which should be the only first generation BluRay player anyone should buy until we have 2.0 spec standalone players being sold off the shelf.

Yes, I have a PoS3, so I can play games and watch Blu ray. The thing works fine for a video game/ techno junkie like myself. But the average consumer won't want a console for their movie player. I help a lot of people with HT installs, and now the price of HD video just went up from $150 to $400 for a decent HD player. Only, I have to tell them that their $400 player won't be fully compatible with stuff coming out at Christmas time. But, if they buy a game console it will. The 50ish year old owner of my company will be working on an HT soon. He isn't really a gamer, buy you expect me to put a PS controller in his hand to play HD movies? You know, the guy with money who can afford to blow $400 on a player? No, he wants a remote... Oh, get the BlueTooth remote then... Well, that's not going to work with the Crestron control panel he's buying. PS3 isn't an option.

Come on people! HD A/V has been out for 2 years now, and the format that "wins" is incomplete, costs more, and is run by a company that is known for proprietary standards. Am I bitter? No, I am ticked off. I want HD to be easy and cheap enough for everyone.

Is it nice that BD has more space? Sure it is. Does BD or HD DVD look better? It's the same with the same video and audio codecs, etc... Is one "better" than the other? Not really. I enjoy moves on HD DVDs as well as BD DVDs.... Equally!

Do I care who wins and loses? NO!!! I still just want good, cheap, and easy.

</Rant>

 

[Johnd]

Come on people! HD A/V has been out for 2 years now, and the format that "wins" is incomplete, costs more, and is run by a company that is known for proprietary standards. Am I bitter? No, I am ticked off. I want HD to be easy and cheap enough for everyone.

Do I care who wins and loses? NO!!! I still just want good, cheap, and easy.

My sentiments exactly. Well stated Mr. Robbins.

 

[Dezoris]

<Rant>



I don't cry about hardware. I complain... And when I complain, you'll hear it! Am I audioholics staff? Well, probably not "Staff" but a contributing writer sometimes. And yeah, the end of HD-DVD bugs me. I like completed specifications. I like cheaper prices. I like HD video and sound.


As a full time software developer who programs on the MS platform every day, I know full well, that Microsoft succeeds more often than they fail. And heck, if MS really wanted to put their heart (and money) behind HD-DVD, it wouldn't have failed.


Yes, I have a PoS3, so I can play games and watch Blu ray. The thing works fine for a video game/ techno junkie like myself. But the average consumer won't want a console for their movie player. I help a lot of people with HT installs, and now the price of HD video just went up from $150 to $400 for a decent HD player. Only, I have to tell them that their $400 player won't be fully compatible with stuff coming out at Christmas time. But, if they buy a game console it will. The 50ish year old owner of my company will be working on an HT soon. He isn't really a gamer, buy you expect me to put a PS controller in his hand to play HD movies? You know, the guy with money who can afford to blow $400 on a player? No, he wants a remote... Oh, get the BlueTooth remote then... Well, that's not going to work with the Crestron control panel he's buying. PS3 isn't an option.

Come on people! HD A/V has been out for 2 years now, and the format that "wins" is incomplete, costs more, and is run by a company that is known for proprietary standards. Am I bitter? No, I am ticked off. I want HD to be easy and cheap enough for everyone.

Is it nice that BD has more space? Sure it is. Does BD or HD DVD look better? It's the same with the same video and audio codecs, etc... Is one "better" than the other? Not really. I enjoy moves on HD DVDs as well as BD DVDs.... Equally!

Do I care who wins and loses? NO!!! I still just want good, cheap, and easy.

</Rant>

You said you like HD, completed specs, and cheap prices?

Those cheap HDDVD players did not have HDMI 1.3 1080p/24 output and HD audio which is the whole point of this HD format.

So that argument does not make much sense if you like HD?

Microsoft had the ability to have HDDVD in the hands of over 18 million customers. They chose that it was not important enough in the long run to include HDDVD players in the Xbox360 so they rushed to market botched hardware.

Almost everything MS does with hardware fails, and they have no experience in A/V.

They blew it and Toshiba bet wrong that MS would follow through on helping support the format. They had limited manufacturer support and studio support which was the absolute key in securing a format right from day one.

And don't give me the PS3 does not work bit. You can use an IR USB connector for optional remotes. And it's ready for 2.0 spec.
They will also have movie rental service soon backed by Netflix.

The PS3 passes 1080p/24 does HD (limited) audio everything the HD format was designed for, including the support for 40mbs video something HDDVD was not capable of.

 

[birdonthebeach]

I'm not sure what exactly the definition of "win" is in the whole HD format war. Certainly HD DVD did not win - that we can agree on. I'm just not sure what BD has "won" anything yet. They certainly out-spent their competitor and ended up killing them off, but there is no way that they are anywhere near making up all the cash they sunk into the "war." So does this opinion make me "some Audioholics staff" crying?

I'm certainly not emotional about the situation, and would almost say I am indifferent. I have a $98 HD DVD player and about 15 discs that I paid $0.00 for. (mail-in offers) And here is the truth, regardless of what you might think: If the Blu-ray player w/free discs had been on sale for $98, THAT is what I would have purchased. My projector can't pass 1080p anyway, so it has all been sport for me. No way I was gonna jump in early on this one when the cost of entry was $400-$500.

My guess is that before the hardware and physical media become mainstream (affordable and mass market), we will see digital delivery beat it to the punch. As Audioholics (by nature or by profession), we tend to be early adopters (with opinions) and will sometimes spend big $$$ to have the latest and greatest. This has not been one of those times. I had no problem dropping $98 on this little experiment - but no way I am gonna drop $399. I don't buy many DVD's anyway - we use Netflix.

Until I get the dream theater built (probably about a year away), I will sit back and enjoy my 15 movies and whatever Netflix has left. It stinks that the format failed, but so far it's been a decent bang for my $98 bucks....

 

[Johnd]

Those cheap HDDVD players did not have HDMI 1.3 1080p/24 output and HD audio which is the whole point of this HD format.

So that argument does not make much sense if you like HD?

I disagree (surprisingly ).

One does not need, nor can they take advatage of 1080 if their display is only 720...and there are an awful lot of 720 displays out there. And many of them display quite good picture quality.

One does not need a 1080p signal if their display is 720, and the deinterlacing can be performed easily by any quality display.

24 Hz only becomes problematic, or necessary, in a small amount of people's theaters.

In a perfect world, perhaps we could avoid the redundancy (and related cost) of 1080p if all players were 1080i, and all displays were 1080p native, but sadly, we do not live in a perfect world.

 

[dobyblue]

And yeah, the end of HD-DVD bugs me. I like completed specifications. I like cheaper prices. I like HD video and sound.

1) HD sound and HD DVD didn't go hand in hand, certainly not like BD did.
2) I think less than 10% of HD DVD players supported dts-HD Master Audio, so how were the specifications complete when the players didn't support all that the discs supported.

As a full time software developer who programs on the MS platform every day, I know full well, that Microsoft succeeds more often than they fail. And heck, if MS really wanted to put their heart (and money) behind HD-DVD, it wouldn't have failed.

This seems a little gullible to me. You think MS would be able to take on all the CE's and all the Hollywood studios minus Toshiba? Given that HD DVD wasn't ready to launch when they launched the 360, so they couldn't have incorporated it without delaying their launch date.

Yes, I have a PoS3, so I can play games and watch Blu ray. The thing works fine for a video game/ techno junkie like myself. But the average consumer won't want a console for their movie player. I help a lot of people with HT installs, and now the price of HD video just went up from $150 to $400 for a decent HD player. Only, I have to tell them that their $400 player won't be fully compatible with stuff coming out at Christmas time.

You'd be misleading them if you led them to believe that it wouldn't be compatible with 100% of all the movies and over 90% of the special features.

Come on people! HD A/V has been out for 2 years now, and the format that "wins" is incomplete, costs more, and is run by a company that is known for proprietary standards. Am I bitter?

It sounds like it, if you seriously believe that Sony runs Blu-ray. The average software for Blu-ray has been cheaper than HD DVD for well over a year, you can look through the timeline of eProdictwars. So you think one piece of hardware being more expensive is more anti-consumer in the long run than cheaper software?

No, I am ticked off. I want HD to be easy and cheap enough for everyone. Do I care who wins and loses? NO!!! I still just want good, cheap, and easy.

Me too, I'm patiently waiting for that $99 plasma HDTV!!

 

[Johnd]

1) HD sound and HD DVD didn't go hand in hand, certainly not like BD did.

I don't know what that means (or infers). I am enjoying DD+ and True (and DD, DTS, DTS ES, DD EX, etc) on my somewhat ancient 5803. I think it sounds incredible...no problems whatsoever with audio playback.

2) I think less than 10% of HD DVD players supported dts-HD Master Audio, so how were the specifications complete when the players didn't support all that the discs supported.

Isn't that a bit disingenuous, or worse, misleading? I can think of one title that has DTS HDMA. One.

This seems a little gullible to me. You think MS would be able to take on all the CE's and all the Hollywood studios minus Toshiba? Given that HD DVD wasn't ready to launch when they launched the 360, so they couldn't have incorporated it without delaying their launch date.

Not to be so presumptuous to speak for another, let alone a mod, but what I took from that statement is MS has the wherewithal to do just about anything they want with software. And that I believe.

You'd be misleading them if you led them to believe that it wouldn't be compatible with 100% of all the movies and over 90% of the special features.

Again, I don't know what this means. I have three HD players, and there is not one HD disc (or feature) that I have not been able to play on it. Not one. So in the real world, what does it matter?

It sounds like it, if you seriously believe that Sony runs Blu-ray. The average software for Blu-ray has been cheaper than HD DVD for well over a year, you can look through the timeline of eProdictwars. So you think one piece of hardware being more expensive is more anti-consumer in the long run than cheaper software?

In all actuality, although Amazon just announced a big BD sale, I think those are mostly old titles, and titles that have been repeatedly on sale. The new releases are not $10 or $15. And these sale prices are only at Amazon...it has not trickled down in any meaningful way to b&m stores.

Me too, I'm patiently waiting for that $99 plasma HDTV!!

Hmmm. I'm not (waiting), because I might as well be waiting for the cows to come home.

 

[JackT]

My guess is that before the hardware and physical media become mainstream (affordable and mass market), we will see digital delivery beat it to the punch.

I think it is undoubtedly true that digital delivery will be the way it is done some day. It seems clear to me, though, that this is more than 5 years away from being mainstream, mainly because this requires a lot of infrastructure to be deployed. A lot of people have been waiting for decent broadband connections, much less having the ability to conveniently download 2hr. HD movies.

Another thing is, people are buying HDTVs NOW, and want to watch HD discs, and the players are in the stores TODAY. Someday they will be able to get movies digitally, but even if they are aware of that fact, they certainly have no idea when.

 

[obscbyclouds]

<Rant>

I don't cry about hardware. I complain... And when I complain, you'll hear it! Am I audioholics staff? Well, probably not "Staff" but a contributing writer sometimes. And yeah, the end of HD-DVD bugs me. I like completed specifications. I like cheaper prices. I like HD video and sound.


As a full time software developer who programs on the MS platform every day, I know full well, that Microsoft succeeds more often than they fail. And heck, if MS really wanted to put their heart (and money) behind HD-DVD, it wouldn't have failed.

I have to take issue with some of this. Where was the HD sound on the "Transformers" HD-DVD? Dolby Digital Plus? phhbbbttt to that. This bugged me to no end, it was a flagship title, not some shabby remastered release.

Cheaper prices? You realize those Toshiba players were sold at a fairly high loss. You can't tell me a HD-A35 only cost $150 to build. I think the A35 originally went for $500, A30 for $400. Not to mention the XA2 at $799. Because Toshiba was willing to sell at a loss doesn't mean that other manufacturers are willing to do the same. For example Onkyo's HD-DVD player was going to cost $899 at release. Ouch!

Microsoft succeeds...well, I suppose that's debateable. As a company, there's no doubt it's true. However, as an owner of my 3rd X-Box 360, they certainly didn't succeed on that front. Either way, this seems like a strange reason to support a certain format.

As far as the gist of the article goes, yup, prices are going up. So is everything else, as the dollar gets weaker and weaker, things we buy will get more and more expensive. It's a fact of life. However, I do believe as more and more manufacturers produce BR players, the cost will fall. Maybe we need a government inquest into the "Big Blu-ray" industry for price gouging. I'm sure you could find a few Senators and Congressmen who want some more T.V. time.

 

[birdonthebeach]

I think it is undoubtedly true that digital delivery will be the way it is done some day. It seems clear to me, though, that this is more than 5 years away from being mainstream, mainly because this requires a lot of infrastructure to be deployed. A lot of people have been waiting for decent broadband connections, much less having the ability to conveniently download 2hr. HD movies.

Another thing is, people are buying HDTVs NOW, and want to watch HD discs, and the players are in the stores TODAY. Someday they will be able to get movies digitally, but even if they are aware of that fact, they certainly have no idea when.

I agree pretty much with what you point out, but I still say that mainstream America (Wal-Mart Guy or Best-Buy Guy) who is buying up all those HDTV's is just fine with the picture quality they get from their $9.99 SD DVD, and are not yet ready to spend another $400 on the player and upwards of $25 on the BD.

Don't get me wrong - I WANT everyone to want a HD disc format, but I still think it is a niche product for us hardcore guys... Pricing, in my opinion, is what will make it mainstream.

 

[JackT]

Don't get me wrong - I WANT everyone to want a HD disc format, but I still think it is a niche product for us hardcore guys... Pricing, in my opinion, is what will make it mainstream.

Agreed. This is no different than the situation for any of the previous formats (VHS, CD, DVD.) Prices will come down, and everyone will have a DVD player with a BluRay logo on the front.

 

[birdonthebeach]

I'm sure you could find a few Senators and Congressmen who want some more T.V. time.

I love it!!! Maybe Spector, after he finishes with the Pats. Geez - save us from our politicians. I have said it before and I will say it again. Washington DC is Hollywood for ugly people.....

 

[Johnd]

Either way, this seems like a strange reason to support a certain format.

Strange? That's the only reason I got into HD. It was incredibly cheap. I wouldn't have delved in otherwise. Birdonthebeach stated the same. And so have other members here. The fact is HD hardware has always been cheaper than BD hardware. Still not cheap enough for me (and others) until the firesales began. Strange. No. It's purely economic. If and when BD players (a decent one) comes out for about $150, and most titles are $10 - $15, I may then renew my interest in a new format. Until then, all you rich guys can have it.

 

[obscbyclouds]

Strange? That's the only reason I got into HD. It was incredibly cheap. I wouldn't have delved in otherwise. Birdonthebeach stated the same. And so have other members here. The fact is HD hardware has always been cheaper than BD hardware. Still not cheap enough for me (and others) until the firesales began. Strange. No. It's purely economic. If and when BD players (a decent one) comes out for about $150, and most titles are $10 - $15, I may then renew my interest in a new format. Until then, all you rich guys can have it.

Read again John, I meant Microsoft's support.....the "because they usually succeed" comment. I wasn't talking about price there.

 

[Johnd]

Read again John, I meant Microsoft's support.....the "because they usually succeed" comment. I wasn't talking about price there.

Oh. Kind of a runon (that was the gist of the first part of your post), even though it is a separate paragraph. Sorry. Nevermind.

 

[Dezoris]

I agree pretty much with what you point out, but I still say that mainstream America (Wal-Mart Guy or Best-Buy Guy) who is buying up all those HDTV's is just fine with the picture quality they get from their $9.99 SD DVD, and are not yet ready to spend another $400 on the player and upwards of $25 on the BD.

Don't get me wrong - I WANT everyone to want a HD disc format, but I still think it is a niche product for us hardcore guys... Pricing, in my opinion, is what will make it mainstream.

Yes, the pricing is key and apparent by even the way people who are somewhat into A/V are doing on this site.

Strange? That's the only reason I got into HD. It was incredibly cheap. I wouldn't have delved in otherwise. Birdonthebeach stated the same. And so have other members here. The fact is HD hardware has always been cheaper than BD hardware. Still not cheap enough for me (and others) until the firesales began. Strange. No. It's purely economic. If and when BD players (a decent one) comes out for about $150, and most titles are $10 - $15, I may then renew my interest in a new format. Until then, all you rich guys can have it.

This is what I am getting from my friends. They want HD but don't want to spend the money to get the most out of the capability.

It's like buying the 6 cylinder Mustang instead of the V8. You have the look but not the real deal. (I dont like Mustangs BTW)

I am shocked at the amount of people investing in something because it is cheap instead of what is best for the long haul.

Its like one of the older podcasts from here talked about. The guy who has the plasma over the fireplace and got HD Dish service and had it hooked up with a composite cable.

If you are not going to run 1080p with HD audio why buy an HD player when you will be fine with DVD?

 

[dobyblue]

I don't know what that means (or infers). I am enjoying DD+ and True (and DD, DTS, DTS ES, DD EX, etc) on my somewhat ancient 5803. I think it sounds incredible...no problems whatsoever with audio playback.

Of course it sounds incredible, but the point you've conveniently missed is that the number of titles available with lossless audio on the red was pathetic compared to the # of titles available on Blu.

Isn't that a bit disingenuous, or worse, misleading? I can think of one title that has DTS HDMA. One.

There are lots of HD DVD releases with dts-ma on them. Pretty much all of Studio Canal's releases have dts-ma on them, unless of course you're arrogant enough to suggest that anything outside the borders of the USA doesn't count?
In addition to that, over 30% of the HD DVD units sold cannot even output decoded Dolby TrueHD, as they have no analog or HDMI output for audio. (360 HD DVD add-on)

In all actuality, although Amazon just announced a big BD sale, I think those are mostly old titles, and titles that have been repeatedly on sale. The new releases are not $10 or $15. And these sale prices are only at Amazon...it has not trickled down in any meaningful way to b&m stores.

Who's talking just about the most recent sale, I'm talking about all the sales throughout the past year.

Hmmm. I'm not (waiting), because I might as well be waiting for the cows to come home.

BINGO!!!!!!!!!!

 

[bobnegi]

VHS players in 1978. (Crappy VHS still expensive? CARTEL! The market is broken!)
-CD players in 1984. (Too expensive! The consumer will never adopt these! Run for the hills FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!)
-DVD players in 1997. (Players still cost too much!! CAPITALISM NOT WORKING!!!)
-MP3 players in 1998. (How much for a crappy 512MB???? PRICE FIXING AT WORK!!! CONSUMER GETTING screwed!!!)

Please correct me if I am wrong, the above formats are classified as 'open source' whereas Blur Ray is proprietary, hence little impetuous from the manufactures to achieve economies of scale to reduce street prices.

I know most of you are early adopters...did Sony come to your house, stick a gun in your mouth and force you to by Blue Ray and to replace your existing SD DVD?

I think not, I bought a HD DVD after the Toshiba announcement, and guess what? All my SD DVD's look great! Not to mention the free movie deal

 

[Dezoris]

I disagree (surprisingly ).

One does not need, nor can they take advatage of 1080 if their display is only 720...and there are an awful lot of 720 displays out there. And many of them display quite good picture quality.

One does not need a 1080p signal if their display is 720, and the deinterlacing can be performed easily by any quality display.

24 Hz only becomes problematic, or necessary, in a small amount of people's theaters.

In a perfect world, perhaps we could avoid the redundancy (and related cost) of 1080p if all players were 1080i, and all displays were 1080p native, but sadly, we do not live in a perfect world.

So basically the argument has turned into:

HDDVD was cheaper but provided none of the HD features the format was designed to provide. But that is ok because its good for people who are not using the features anyway.

This is the mentality I do not understand at all.