New Shanling A3000 integrated Amp...

[wire]

Oh, but how DID you compare them, really?
If one wants a reality check, you do it one way, if one wants to just play around, then, anything goes as do the results.

Just swapped them out , its sounds easy , but its not , the 4b is 50llbs , the SP3 is 50lbs and the TFM 35 is 35 lbs . Left everything else in place , why would i move my speakers ? ( im very detailed in speaker placement ) .
Im not sure what you are saying , of course i playing around . Results where real , sorry to say Mysty .

 

[wire]

Yes, that is the problem, being misinformed and brainwashed in such places with no reality check. But, there may be hope. All your perceptions can be tested without your bias interfering, or, actually accounting for your biases.
But, that takes a curious mind seeking truths, reality and such, not blindly accepting sensory inputs or the mind's tricks.

Hehe
Brainwashed . I was just down in the States lately , man they are brainwashed rightnow . I was paying for gas outside of Chicago , there was a caucasion white male , Yelling at the man working at till " your a ****ing terrorist , go back to your country " and a bunch of other swear words and propagada .
The man ( in a turban ) replyed " I am a American , i have right to live here " .
It was freaky . Talk about Misinformed and brainwashed , Need a reality check down there and quite watching the news .
The man could have been 2nd generation US citizen . Wow .

 

[wire]

I've never heard any of the Shanling gear but I absolutely love the looks of everything I've seen! Ditto for some of the other Chinese tubed gear. I had an Onix SP3 and kick myself to this day for getting rid of it.

Yeh SP3 , i still have , its a sweet soft amp .

 

[wire]

Heres some Pictures

Yeh sweet setup, nice detail on speaker placement also .

 

[fmw]

It's not my intention to offend of sound arrogant. (perhaps it's the limitations of the medium---typing as opposed to speaking.)
I just wandered into this land (Audioholics.com) recently from the high-end audio world I usually inhabit online. And folks here such as yourself have a way of looking at things that is very different to me (and it seems quite hostile at times too). It is quite radical from where I sit. I'm trying to figure out just how radical (and learning how hostile).

For example, the idea that cables don't affect sound (I'm not saying you said this--although you might have at some point) is so contrary to my experience, I have to read it a few times to see that people really believe it.

Perhaps I should apologize for the "dead horse" statement I made earlier. I honestly mean you no ill will. I am just trying to understand a different culture.

Please work with me if you can. If not, please leave me alone to explore without having to suffer abuse, and I'll try to do the same.

It is the basis of the endless subjective/objective argument that goes on in audio and has for 1/2 a century. I spent 30 years as a subjective audiophile just like you. It took me a very long time to learn the truth but I finally learned it about 10 years ago.

The problem is this. Human beings are affected by something called the placebo effect. It is very strong and affects all of us, you and me both included. It is so strong, in fact, that some people have cured themselves by taking placebos in blind drug tests.

The placebo effect involves our hearing as well. We tend to hear what we want to hear or what we expect to hear or what we think we should hear. We are biased and our brains impose our biases on our hearing. This isn't opinion. This is fact and scientifically proven.

What this means is that we can't trust our ears or our experience when it comes to discerning subtle audible differences. Yes, we have no problem distinguishing the sound of a boombox from that of high end audio system. But when it comes to a very subtle differences, like that between two competently designed amplifiers, the reaction we have to audible differences is more placebo than real. We can hear past our biases with gross audible differences but we get caught every time with subtle ones.

The way to eliminate this effect is to listen in a level matched completely bias controlled way. When we engage in this kind of listening, many (but not all) of the subtle audible differences simply disappear.

I personally conducted an interconnect cable objective listening test in the late 1990's. I tested 15 different pairs of cables ranging in price from zero to $1500 per pair using a $40,000 stereo sound system (my system, by the way.) There were no objective audible difference between 14 of the 15 pairs. The 15th one rolled off the high frequencies to an audible degree. Measuring the electrical properties of the cable explained the phenomenon. The thing was put together in such a way that it acted as a tone control. When we ran the test subjectively, the audiophile panel heard all kinds of audible differences and developed a whole range of opinions about the cables. Not surprisingly, the opinions improved as the fame or price of the cable brands and models increased. But objectively, only 1 of 15 cable pairs showed any audible differences at all.

The reason others have said that you need to arrive at the truth yourself, is that you have to experience objective listening tests for yourself to understand what science is telling you. You just can't hear through your biases when audible differences are subtle.

Having said all of that, I have no problem with people buying whatever appeals to them. I did it myself for a very long time. I view the entire high end audio industry with some sadness, however. It preys upon peoples' normal psychology and, sometimes involves itself in dowright lies. Go back and review the Tice clock or the Shun Moon discs or most any other popular tweak in the high end industry. That's the kind of lies I'm talking about.

The Shanling products are most likely competently designed and good performers. I'm not suggesting otherwise. I can't since I have no personal experience with them. But I'm willing to bet that it wouldn't be difficult at all to find products that perform exactly the same at a very much lower price - or a very much higher price, for that matter.

People don't buy Rolex watches because they keep time better than other watches. They buy them for pride of ownership, bragging rights, appreciation of fine craftsmanship - whatever. People should buy Wilson Speakers and Levinson amplifiers for the same reasons. But, unfortunately, they often buy them because their ears tell them they perform better even though their ears can't be trusted. They haven't yet encountered the truth about perceptive hearing.

I hope this helps explain things a little better.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hehe
Brainwashed . I was just down in the States lately , man they are brainwashed rightnow . I was paying for gas outside of Chicago , there was a caucasion white male , Yelling at the man working at till " your a ****ing terrorist , go back to your country " and a bunch of other swear words and propagada .
The man ( in a turban ) replyed " I am a American , i have right to live here " .
It was freaky . Talk about Misinformed and brainwashed , Need a reality check down there and quite watching the news .
The man could have been 2nd generation US citizen . Wow .

Yep, that person was gullible as much as an audiophile 'golden ear' is They believe everything and have difficulty searching for the truth.

If one doesn't watch the news, what then, how do you get information to think about? I suppose you don't watch the news then? How do you know what is going on in the world or in Canada? Or, just live in a shell?
Or, you just watch what you think is the truth?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Just swapped them out , its sounds easy , but its not , the 4b is 50llbs , the SP3 is 50lbs and the TFM 35 is 35 lbs . Left everything else in place , why would i move my speakers ? ( im very detailed in speaker placement ) .
Im not sure what you are saying , of course i playing around . Results where real , sorry to say Mysty .

Well, my psychic power is growing more powerful every day, I see.
Just as I predicted what and how you would compare them. No wonder your results are so unreliable.
No level matching, no blinding, no replication for a statistically significant outcome? Anything goes and it produced exactly what it did.

 

[fmw]

Hehe
Brainwashed . I was just down in the States lately , man they are brainwashed rightnow . I was paying for gas outside of Chicago , there was a caucasion white male , Yelling at the man working at till " your a ****ing terrorist , go back to your country " and a bunch of other swear words and propagada .
The man ( in a turban ) replyed " I am a American , i have right to live here " .
It was freaky . Talk about Misinformed and brainwashed , Need a reality check down there and quite watching the news .
The man could have been 2nd generation US citizen . Wow .

Hopefully you'll stay in Canada in the future. We have plenty of anti-Americans here. We don't need to import any more.

 

[wire]

Hopefully you'll stay in Canada in the future. We have plenty of anti-Americans here. We don't need to import any more.

hehe
Just like that whitemale in the gas station .
Why do you have Anti-americans in America ?
I have nothing against the ppl. of America , just do your thing and live the best lives you can .
It was just a observation i made , that i don't see except in the movies .

 

[wire]

Well, my psychic power is growing more powerful every day, I see.
Just as I predicted what and how you would compare them. No wonder your results are so unreliable.
No level matching, no blinding, no replication for a statistically significant outcome? Anything goes and it produced exactly what it did.

What swapping amps is not good enough for you .

 

[wire]

If one doesn't watch the news, what then, how do you get information to think about? I suppose you don't watch the news then? Or, you just watch what you think is the truth?

I dont want to know the truth (the truth is hard to find and when you find it , there is something attached to it ) about certian things in humanity , its not my business , I dont watch the news that much . If i need information i do my own DD and if i have to read the paper for information , i read atleast 4 or 5 different newspapers ( sometimes more) on the subject to decifer any kind of base .

 

[Brett A]

I hope this helps explain things a little better.

Thanks, indeed it does.

But what I can't seem to reconcile is this:

In my short time so far engaging with this hobby (2-channel) in earnest, I have listened to many different interconnects, power cables, speakers and integrated amps---the things I have shelled money out for recently.

I’ve taken stuff home from my local shop—or bought stuff cheap out of curiosity--- without much of an idea of what difference it might make, or if it actually will. This is to say that I try to remain open that changing components may make no difference. My experience has been that things usually do make a difference.

Let me give a for-instance:
I bought an Audio Quest NRG2 power cable off eBay (got it for $35 new, thank you very much) without really knowing what difference it would make---if any. I had not read anything about the cable and read little about power cables in general.

My experience is that the system sounds different with it in. I have found that when I run my integrated with it, I get a wider and slightly more detailed soundstage and when I swap it over to my CD player, it provides a deeper soundstage. A specific about the detail: When it runs my amp, I can hear Freddy Cole’s saliva/tongue/palate as he prepares his delivery between vocal phrases on his latest CD, “Music, Maestro Please”. This detail cannot be heard when this power cable is anywhere else but in the amp---be it in the CD player or laying on the floor across the room. This detail just disappears.

Similarly, the first time I bi-wired my speakers, I did it in a relative information vacuum yet the difference was clearly discernible, and turned out in to be consistent with common reportage.

Many swaps/tweaks I have done have involved little or no monetary or time investment to fuel expectation either.

The question I have is thiscould even be a rhetorical question)
Without carrying specific expectations or mental frontloading into the experience, how or why would my brain contrive two uniquely different sets of listening experiences, and then stick with them, making them repeatable, even with my efforts to dismiss them? And why sometimes would it make up an unpleasant experience? (Our minds do incline toward pleasant, no?)

I have to admit, it leaves me suspecting that we simply have not yet found a way to measure some of these differences.

I say some, because I do not intend to dismiss or discredit the double-blind subjective tests. I fully believe there is a placebo affect sometimes; I just can’t help but think there are other times when there are real differences that we simply do not know how to measure.

 

[Brett A]

The question I have is thiscould even be a rhetorical question)

This was an accidental frown. It's supposed to be a colon and a first parenthesis. ---brett

 

[Brett A]

Try some Ei 6DJ8EG tubes! they are great.

I've looked into those, but right now online, they are $80.usd for a matched pair. So they are not quite at the top of my shopping list.

 

[fmw]

Thanks, indeed it does.

But what I can't seem to reconcile is this:

In my short time so far engaging with this hobby (2-channel) in earnest, I have listened to many different interconnects, power cables, speakers and integrated amps---the things I have shelled money out for recently.

I’ve taken stuff home from my local shop—or bought stuff cheap out of curiosity--- without much of an idea of what difference it might make, or if it actually will. This is to say that I try to remain open that changing components may make no difference. My experience has been that things usually do make a difference.

Let me give a for-instance:
I bought an Audio Quest NRG2 power cable off eBay (got it for $35 new, thank you very much) without really knowing what difference it would make---if any. I had not read anything about the cable and read little about power cables in general.

My experience is that the system sounds different with it in. I have found that when I run my integrated with it, I get a wider and slightly more detailed soundstage and when I swap it over to my CD player, it provides a deeper soundstage. A specific about the detail: When it runs my amp, I can hear Freddy Cole’s saliva/tongue/palate as he prepares his delivery between vocal phrases on his latest CD, “Music, Maestro Please”. This detail cannot be heard when this power cable is anywhere else but in the amp---be it in the CD player or laying on the floor across the room. This detail just disappears.

Similarly, the first time I bi-wired my speakers, I did it in a relative information vacuum yet the difference was clearly discernible, and turned out in to be consistent with common reportage.

Many swaps/tweaks I have done have involved little or no monetary or time investment to fuel expectation either.

The question I have is thiscould even be a rhetorical question)
Without carrying specific expectations or mental frontloading into the experience, how or why would my brain contrive two uniquely different sets of listening experiences, and then stick with them, making them repeatable, even with my efforts to dismiss them? And why sometimes would it make up an unpleasant experience? (Our minds do incline toward pleasant, no?)

I have to admit, it leaves me suspecting that we simply have not yet found a way to measure some of these differences.

I say some, because I do not intend to dismiss or discredit the double-blind subjective tests. I fully believe there is a placebo affect sometimes; I just can’t help but think there are other times when there are real differences that we simply do not know how to measure.

Yes, I understand. It is a shot to the ego and to our common sense that someone tells us we can't trust our own ears. But that is the truth. There is a placebo affect always with anything we hear. Much of the time we can hear through it. Believe me, with interconnect or speaker cables or bi-wiring, we can't. You will need to learn that for yourself. I can show you how to set up a simple test for cables. Cable tests don't even require level matching. You will just need a wife or a friend to do the cable switching so that you don't know which one you are listening to.

The placebo effect is what keeps the entire high end audio industry in business. Been there, done that over and over and over for years and years and years.

 

[Davemcc]

If you can hear Freddy Cole’s saliva/tongue/palate, then you can measure the sonic signature it creates. Pure and simple. If you can measurably and repeatably demonstrate that Freddy Cole’s saliva/tongue/palate is present with one cable and absent with another, then you can prove yourself right and all the naysayers wrong. If you are truly blessed with this "golden ear" then you should prevail in a double blind test administered in a clinical fashion.

 

[mtrycrafts]

If you can hear Freddy Cole’s saliva/tongue/palate, then you can measure the sonic signature it creates. Pure and simple. If you can measurably and repeatably demonstrate that Freddy Cole’s saliva/tongue/palate is present with one cable and absent with another, then you can prove yourself right and all the naysayers wrong. If you are truly blessed with this "golden ear" then you should prevail in a double blind test administered in a clinical fashion.

And, WIN that $1Mil prize from Randi

 

[mtrycrafts]

I have to admit, it leaves me suspecting that we simply have not yet found a way to measure some of these differences.

.

That may be a possibility, slight as it may be. But, instead of placing the cart before the horse, one needs to demonstrate that indeed comparable cables(since 24ga is audibly different from 16ga) are indeed audibly different. Then, there is something to investigate.
But, I seriously doubt there is a cable measurement we have not yet discovered that leads to your answer. But, we can test you and see if you can indeed hear audible differences, not just imagine them.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Why do you have Anti-americans in America ?
.

Probably because they don't know how good they have it here? Maybe it is a mental issue?
Maybe too much freedom?

 

[mtrycrafts]

What swapping amps is not good enough for you .

Oh, it is, but not enough to give reliable outcome for your sense of perceptions. Too easy to fool it and you cannot control for it.