I'd like to know what you think (B&W speaker issue):

[TJHUB]

This is my first post here, but I've been lurking for a while and joined a week or so ago. I'm on the hunt for some new speakers and figured I'd be posting...

I've owned my B&W 602.s3 (mains) and LCR600.s3 (center) for I think what is nearing 5 years now? I believe I purchased them when the s3's were first released. I was driving them with my Sony DA4ES receiver up until about a week ago. I'm now driving them with Emotiva MMC-1/IPS-1 (pre-pro/amp) separates. The new gear has definitely breathed new life into my B&W's, but they still seem to come up short for me.

I love the speakers for the most part, but not with all music. I listen to almost everything but country. For the most part I tend to listen to jazz (Jean-Luc Ponty, Fourplay, Sade, Norah Jones, Diana Krall, etc.) the most as it sounds so freaking incredible on these B&W's. However, I'm also a big Nine Inch Nails fan and listen to other aggressive music often (usually in the car), and my B&W's seem to fall apart on me. To me it sounds as if the tweeter is struggling on the low end of it's spectrum. It sounds distorted and harsh even at modestly low volumes (I don't listen to music very loud).

I'm going to step out on limb here and guess that the issue is the low x-over point of the B&W's combined with the metal dome tweeters (I haven't verified the x-over point with my RTA setup yet though). For example, my car stereo is a 3-way active setup. I run a Pioneer P880PRS HU, A/D/S components, DIYMA R12 sub, all driven by Alpine's latest PDX series full range class D amps. I've tried many x-over settings and I can tell you that a x-over point too low on my A/D/S silk tweeters gets harsh and nasty sounding. This reminds me of the B&W's playing Nine Inch Nails or Korn. Just makes me wonder...

I'm wondering if anyone with B&W speakers would agree with my observation or not? Is it just me that feels this way?

This issue has me considering new speakers (mains and center). I can really only listen to B&W, Paradigm, Klipsch (don't like them), Monitor Audio (don't like them) and McIntosh (can't afford them - don't know if I like them) in my area. That's really it for "good" brands. I'll also tell you that while auditioning speakers in the stores can be helpful, I don't think it works well. So much depends on the room and placement that unless the speakers are in my home played with a lot of different music, I just can't really tell if I'd like them or not. I can say that the last time I auditioned speakers I could have gone either way with the B&W's or Paradigm lines. The B&W's edged out the Paradigms slightly to me in the stores (maybe), but I got a much better deal on the B&W's so I purchased them.

If I were to replace my current speakers, I'd probably go bookshelf but floor standers aren't out of the question. I have a large room (about 18' x 25' with cathedral ceilings) and the B&W's have no issues playing loud enough for me. I also run an SVS 20-39 PC+ sub for the bottom end.

I suppose if anyone understands my issue with the sound of my B&W's, I'd love a recommendation as to what speaker to try out that I might like better. I'm thinking internet direct may be better with a 30 day trial period. I just don't want to guess wrong and screw around with too many different speakers. I've been reading the forums and professional reviews on this site (great site by the way), and I have some suspects but I'd love some direct feedback on MY situation if possible.

Thanks.

Terry

 

[mazersteven]

It would be helpful to know your budget?

 

[Soundman]

It would be helpful to know your budget?

Yes, budget would be very helpful. BTW, welcome to the forum!

 

[TJHUB]

Sorry. I knew I was forgetting something, but I wanted to make it as clear as possible what my issues were and what I wanted.

Budget...that's a tough one. I supposed I'd spend around $2,000.00 or so on the mains and center. I'd like to spend less, but I'd spend more on the right setup. I just dropped $1,800.00 or so on the Emotiva stuff and an Oppo DVD player (980H), so the wife isn't going to be as open to larger bills as smaller ones.

 

[corysmith01]

I used to own the 601 s3's and had much the same feeling you're having right now; I used to LOVE them for most material. Really did. And a lot of that came from the fact that they were $450/pr...I really felt as though I had gotten my money's worth. I think yours retailed for $600/pr, but most considered that well spent due to the cabinet size/larger driver and thus, the bigger sound you got from them. I wanted them, I just didn't have the extra $150 at the time. Wow...those are long gone days.

Anyway, so since we had/have similar reactions, I can tell you my path, though it's been a winding one, but part of that is just that I like to try out and experiment with speakers. So, after the 601 s3's, my pairs went like this:

• Paradigm Monitor 5 (did not like these by the way...took them back and re-bought my 601's...stupid, I know).

• Paradigm Studio 20 v3's = LOVED these.

• Onix x-ls - changed cities, lost a job, had to down grade (generate funds). These were great considering what they cost me.

• Onix Ref 1's - traded my x-ls and cash for these. They've been rock solid.

Now, of these, my favorite...and this is purely subjective opinion...buy my favorites were the Studio 20's. I know, I know...on paper, the ref 1's should take them. And, if you were being analytical, you could probably make an argument that technically the ref 1's are better. I am quite fond of them, don't get me wrong...hey, they're still in my apartment nearly a year later. That's about the longest I've ever kept a pair. However...the Studio 20's gave me (and this is just me) that visceral response you look for...that sense that's more about feeling than hearing. I really don't know how to explain it. But, to me, they're the pair I think about most often I guess. Even went back and looked at pair of v4's not to long ago. But didn't pull the trigger.

Now how do those relate to your specific question? My feeling was that, the B&W's seemed a bit polite, a bit lean, particularly in the low end when it came to rock and more aggressive music. This, at least in my room, was where the Studio 20's shined. They really were a treat to listen to, especially when I put in something that rocked.

Anyway, not sure that helps any, but I hope it does. Hope you have luck finding the perfect speaker for you.

 

[TLS Guy]

This is my first post here, but I've been lurking for a while and joined a week or so ago. I'm on the hunt for some new speakers and figured I'd be posting...

I've owned my B&W 602.s3 (mains) and LCR600.s3 (center) for I think what is nearing 5 years now? I believe I purchased them when the s3's were first released. I was driving them with my Sony DA4ES receiver up until about a week ago. I'm now driving them with Emotiva MMC-1/IPS-1 (pre-pro/amp) separates. The new gear has definitely breathed new life into my B&W's, but they still seem to come up short for me.

I love the speakers for the most part, but not with all music. I listen to almost everything but country. For the most part I tend to listen to jazz (Jean-Luc Ponty, Fourplay, Sade, Norah Jones, Diana Krall, etc.) the most as it sounds so freaking incredible on these B&W's. However, I'm also a big Nine Inch Nails fan and listen to other aggressive music often (usually in the car), and my B&W's seem to fall apart on me. To me it sounds as if the tweeter is struggling on the low end of it's spectrum. It sounds distorted and harsh even at modestly low volumes (I don't listen to music very loud).

I'm going to step out on limb here and guess that the issue is the low x-over point of the B&W's combined with the metal dome tweeters (I haven't verified the x-over point with my RTA setup yet though). For example, my car stereo is a 3-way active setup. I run a Pioneer P880PRS HU, A/D/S components, DIYMA R12 sub, all driven by Alpine's latest PDX series full range class D amps. I've tried many x-over settings and I can tell you that a x-over point too low on my A/D/S silk tweeters gets harsh and nasty sounding. This reminds me of the B&W's playing Nine Inch Nails or Korn. Just makes me wonder...

I'm wondering if anyone with B&W speakers would agree with my observation or not? Is it just me that feels this way?

This issue has me considering new speakers (mains and center). I can really only listen to B&W, Paradigm, Klipsch (don't like them), Monitor Audio (don't like them) and McIntosh (can't afford them - don't know if I like them) in my area. That's really it for "good" brands. I'll also tell you that while auditioning speakers in the stores can be helpful, I don't think it works well. So much depends on the room and placement that unless the speakers are in my home played with a lot of different music, I just can't really tell if I'd like them or not. I can say that the last time I auditioned speakers I could have gone either way with the B&W's or Paradigm lines. The B&W's edged out the Paradigms slightly to me in the stores (maybe), but I got a much better deal on the B&W's so I purchased them.

If I were to replace my current speakers, I'd probably go bookshelf but floor standers aren't out of the question. I have a large room (about 18' x 25' with cathedral ceilings) and the B&W's have no issues playing loud enough for me. I also run an SVS 20-39 PC+ sub for the bottom end.

I suppose if anyone understands my issue with the sound of my B&W's, I'd love a recommendation as to what speaker to try out that I might like better. I'm thinking internet direct may be better with a 30 day trial period. I just don't want to guess wrong and screw around with too many different speakers. I've been reading the forums and professional reviews on this site (great site by the way), and I have some suspects but I'd love some direct feedback on MY situation if possible.

Thanks.

Terry

I doubt your problem is a high crossover. I believe the crossover is 4KHz. B & W are too good to drive a tweeter into cone resonance. Peter Walker of Quad had a wonderful quote for trying to reproduce music like Nine Inch Nails. "Garbage in, garbage out." Basically the individuals recording and mixing this type of music are neither skilled in the scientific arts, nor acoustics. They usually select speakers with a huge degree of midrange shout and HF pre emphasis. The monitors more often than not have HF/mid sectoral horns, with anything but flat frequency response. That is what they mix with. Trust me I've been around those sessions a time or two. So that is what they mix to. Couple this with excessive dynamic range compression, and you have what fits Peter Walker's description of garbage.

If you want to listen to a racket like that, you will need speakers with a lot of shout and preferably with a sectoral horn top end. You likely will not like your other genres of music through them.

 

[TJHUB]

I used to own the 601 s3's and had much the same feeling you're having right now; I used to LOVE them for most material. Really did. And a lot of that came from the fact that they were $450/pr...I really felt as though I had gotten my money's worth. I think yours retailed for $600/pr, but most considered that well spent due to the cabinet size/larger driver and thus, the bigger sound you got from them. I wanted them, I just didn't have the extra $150 at the time. Wow...those are long gone days.

Anyway, so since we had/have similar reactions, I can tell you my path, though it's been a winding one, but part of that is just that I like to try out and experiment with speakers. So, after the 601 s3's, my pairs went like this:

• Paradigm Monitor 5 (did not like these by the way...took them back and re-bought my 601's...stupid, I know).

• Paradigm Studio 20 v3's = LOVED these.

• Onix x-ls - changed cities, lost a job, had to down grade (generate funds). These were great considering what they cost me.

• Onix Ref 1's - traded my x-ls and cash for these. They've been rock solid.

Now, of these, my favorite...and this is purely subjective opinion...buy my favorites were the Studio 20's. I know, I know...on paper, the ref 1's should take them. And, if you were being analytical, you could probably make an argument that technically the ref 1's are better. I am quite fond of them, don't get me wrong...hey, they're still in my apartment nearly a year later. That's about the longest I've ever kept a pair. However...the Studio 20's gave me (and this is just me) that visceral response you look for...that sense that's more about feeling than hearing. I really don't know how to explain it. But, to me, they're the pair I think about most often I guess. Even went back and looked at pair of v4's not to long ago. But didn't pull the trigger.

Now how do those relate to your specific question? My feeling was that, the B&W's seemed a bit polite, a bit lean, particularly in the low end when it came to rock and more aggressive music. This, at least in my room, was where the Studio 20's shined. They really were a treat to listen to, especially when I put in something that rocked.

Anyway, not sure that helps any, but I hope it does. Hope you have luck finding the perfect speaker for you.

This is a great post and thank you for that. Just an FYI, I always wondered if I should have purchased those Paradigms that day. Sure the B&W's edged them out, but I think the Paradigms were stronger for aggressive music as well. The Studio 20's are on my list to try. I HATE the local store (local=50 miles away) that sells them as I was just there last Friday and re-HATED them. We'll see what happens. I'll take a look at the Onix as well.

 

[TJHUB]

I doubt your problem is a high crossover. I believe the crossover is 4KHz. B & W are too good to drive a tweeter into cone resonance. Peter Walker of Quad had a wonderful quote for trying to reproduce music like Nine Inch Nails. "Garbage in, garbage out." Basically the individuals recording and mixing this type of music are neither skilled in the scientific arts, nor acoustics. They usually select speakers with a huge degree of midrange shout and HF pre emphasis. The monitors more often than not have HF/mid sectoral horns, with anything but flat frequency response. That is what they mix with. Trust me I've been around those sessions a time or two. So that is what they mix to. Couple this with excessive dynamic range compression, and you have what fits Peter Walker's description of garbage.

If you want to listen to a racket like that, you will need speakers with a lot of shout and preferably with a sectoral horn top end. You likely will not like your other genres of music through them.

I don't completely agree with your views on Nine Inch Nails. Some of the stuff is VERY good to me. I'd have a hard time calling it "garbage". I do understand where you're coming from though...

I do realize just how good the B&W's are for jazz and the like. They're actually quite amazing. However, I really don't like the fact that other genres sound so bad. My car plays all genres quite well, but masters none. Jazz sounds good, but nothing like at home. I just can't deal with feeling so limited to certain genres with these speakers, I was hoping for some forgiveness with a new set of speakers. I'd give up *some* sonic quality with my jazz music *if* I can get something more with "garbage".

 

[gus6464]

Trent Reznor is known for making very good recordings of his albums. The redbook and 2ch SACD track of Downward Spiral are very comparable. The sacd edges out the redbook slightly in dynamics but other than that it is very good. To call NIN crap is just plain audiophile snobbery from your part.

 

[Sheep]

Is your room treated? You can replace the speakers a billion times if you want, but if your room is prone to exaggerating the 1-4Khz band (that area that is bothering you), you will always have this problem.

EQ'ing the speakers might help too, but treatments are good no matter what. Make sure you treat the room properly though, don't want to over treat.

How large is the room and how is everything layed out?

SheepStar

 

[Seth=L]

I doubt your problem is a high crossover. I believe the crossover is 4KHz. B & W are too good to drive a tweeter into cone resonance. Peter Walker of Quad had a wonderful quote for trying to reproduce music like Nine Inch Nails. "Garbage in, garbage out." Basically the individuals recording and mixing this type of music are neither skilled in the scientific arts, nor acoustics. They usually select speakers with a huge degree of midrange shout and HF pre emphasis. The monitors more often than not have HF/mid sectoral horns, with anything but flat frequency response. That is what they mix with. Trust me I've been around those sessions a time or two. So that is what they mix to. Couple this with excessive dynamic range compression, and you have what fits Peter Walker's description of garbage.

If you want to listen to a racket like that, you will need speakers with a lot of shout and preferably with a sectoral horn top end. You likely will not like your other genres of music through them.

Get your head out of the sky.

NIN has very well recorded and mastered material. Trent Reznor is very skilled at it, and does this in a very controlled environment. The only debate that one could spring on Reznor is over-editting (yes, I picked this up from Tom Andry, thanks Tom.) but I feel that's part of his artform (he's a perfectionist).

 

[TJHUB]

Post 5 (you know why).

 

[TJHUB]

Is your room treated? You can replace the speakers a billion times if you want, but if your room is prone to exaggerating the 1-4Khz band (that area that is bothering you), you will always have this problem.

EQ'ing the speakers might help too, but treatments are good no matter what. Make sure you treat the room properly though, don't want to over treat.

How large is the room and how is everything layed out?

SheepStar

I don't have any room treatments and I'm sure if they would or wouldn't help. I think my room is ok just like it is, but there's always room for improvement. Remember, I have a loving wife of 16+ years to deal with...

Here are a few photos of my room I took recently:

New Emo gear:

I hope this shows you well enough what the room is like. The large opening in the first pic is to my dining room.

 

[Sheep]

First, reduce the toe-in on the speakers. Second, those windows are going to reflect like crazy. See if your spouse will allow thick, heavy drapes.

Your room will benefit from treatments. You can get treatments that match your decor, see if the misses will allow that, too. Honestly I'm surprised she allowed the cylinder subwoofer.

And LOL @ the "Emo gear". I totally read that wrong the first time \

SheepStar

 

[mperfct]

have you varied speaker placement away from that console? Maybe you're running into some SBIR?

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't have any room treatments and I'm sure if they would or wouldn't help. I think my room is ok just like it is, but there's always room for improvement. Remember, I have a loving wife of 16+ years to deal with...

Here are a few photos of my room I took recently:

New Emo gear:

I hope this shows you well enough what the room is like. The large opening in the first pic is to my dining room.

I agree, those speakers are much too close to the console. They need moving forward of it. The space does look as it it would be plenty live. I do think a space that large would benefit from heftier speakers. A sub helps in the last octave, but the power is really in the 60 Hz to 2000 KHz range. That mid woofer is going to be plenty stressed in that space. Its the old question, "Do speakers have to be large? No, but it REALLY helps."

 

[Warpdrv]

Looking at your setup, I see a set of Studio 40's or 60's and a CC-690 in your future.... perfect layout for it....

If you liked the Paradigm's maybe you should give them another shot..

There are truly alot of brands out there.... I am having a speaker shootout this weekend with a number of different brands, that we will be comparing.

You should keep an eye on this thread... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=982465

It shows a list of the different products that will be at my house and being compared against each other.. take your time, and let your ears be your guide here... its sounds to me that you have a discerning ear, and it will eventually be your guide to finding the right combination.

 

[pzaur]

While I disagree that Nine Inch Nails is garbage, it could very well be that the music is recorded on the hot side. I've attached an Audacity screen image of "March of the Pigs". This is no where near as bad as how Eminem records his music.

Just out of curiousity, do you happen to have the new Carrie Underwood CD? If you do, see if you think the same way about the speakers with her disc on it at loud volumes. My wife really likes it and the mixing on the album bugs the hell out of me. It actually makes her voice sound electronic in the loudest parts of each song.

-pat

 

[mazersteven]

Looking at your setup, I see a set of Studio 40's or 60's and a CC-690 in your future.... perfect layout for it....

.

Or these which would also look great in your room.

Rocket RS850
http://av123.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=27&category_id=19&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

Rocket RSC200
http://av123.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=30&category_id=19&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

 

[TJHUB]

First, reduce the toe-in on the speakers. Second, those windows are going to reflect like crazy. See if your spouse will allow thick, heavy drapes.

Your room will benefit from treatments. You can get treatments that match your decor, see if the misses will allow that, too. Honestly I'm surprised she allowed the cylinder subwoofer.

And LOL @ the "Emo gear". I totally read that wrong the first time \

SheepStar

I'm going to answer this post, but noting you other guys are all in agreement about my speaker placement.

This issue HAS been on my mind, but I've been too lazy to make changes. I've been lazy because I HATE that entertainment center. It's about 11 years old and I'm sick of looking at it. Two weeks ago, I almost pulled the trigger on a new Mits 73" DLP, but I changed my mind. I have an outstanding idea for a new entertainment system (built by me) that my wife loves as well. For a million reasons I dropped the issue and purchased the "Emo gear". In other words, I ran out of gas with my current setup... I'll end that tomorrow.

The reason the speakers are toed in so much (actually on axis with my sweet spot) is because that's what it took to get them to image properly. I think they're too far apart. They are about 12' apart and 15' away from me in my sweet spot. I also don't think they sound harsh or bright at all. The Emo gear has actually toned them down just a small bit from my previous Sony ES receiver as well.

The speakers are close the the cabinets, yes, but the baffles are slightly in front of the corner of the angle on the cabinets. I did a lot of listening with the speakers farther away and I didn't think the sound changed at all when moving closer and closer to the cabinets. I was however dealing with the imaging at the time as well, so there might be something there. I'll do some moving and testing tomorrow.

Drapes? No way! Believe this or not, my wife and I have NEVER owned drapes; not in any of our 3 homes we've owned so far. Not our style and I can assure you that the wife will not go for drapes to satisfy my audio needs. I've never considered the room all that reflective, but I do suppose those aluminum blinds are very reflective.

I can't tell you why, but at odd times my wife is just ok with things. Like when I wanted to buy a new TV a couple of weeks ago, she was all for it. My wife is a cheap ***. I'm the one who spends money like water. I can't explain why she never said anything about that SVS sub. I told her I wanted it, I showed it to her, she rolled her eyes and said something to the affect of: "Why do you need that?", and I bought it. Strange eh? She's never commented about it good or bad. I don't know. I could learn everything there is know about audio and teach it to every man on the planet long before I could explain ANY logic regarding women. FACT!

I think I'll play with the toe and placement of the B&W's a bit. They've been like that for a few years now. Maybe I'll feel differently about how they sound with less toe (or off axis if you will).