I'd like to know what you think (B&W speaker issue):

[TJHUB]

Looking at your setup, I see a set of Studio 40's or 60's and a CC-690 in your future.... perfect layout for it....

If you liked the Paradigm's maybe you should give them another shot..

There are truly alot of brands out there.... I am having a speaker shootout this weekend with a number of different brands, that we will be comparing.

You should keep an eye on this thread... http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=982465

It shows a list of the different products that will be at my house and being compared against each other.. take your time, and let your ears be your guide here... its sounds to me that you have a discerning ear, and it will eventually be your guide to finding the right combination.

I'll be watching! Thanks.

 

[TJHUB]

While I disagree that Nine Inch Nails is garbage, it could very well be that the music is recorded on the hot side. I've attached an Audacity screen image of "March of the Pigs". This is no where near as bad as how Eminem records his music.

Just out of curiousity, do you happen to have the new Carrie Underwood CD? If you do, see if you think the same way about the speakers with her disc on it at loud volumes. My wife really likes it and the mixing on the album bugs the hell out of me. It actually makes her voice sound electronic in the loudest parts of each song.

-pat

Did you not read in my first post that I don't listen to country? Unfortunately I actually do have a Carrie Underwood CD, but it's her first one. My 7 year old daughter LOVES her music (she's my music fanatic as we listen to a lot of music together - my 9 year old son doesn't seem to care...). Anyway, my wonderful father thought is was hillarious that my sweet little girl loves country music and purchased the CD for her for Christmas (call me a bad guy, but I wasn't going to buy it). I'm still trying to figure out a way to make him pay for that!

I don't think I know anyone that has that CD either. Maybe I could have my daughter con my father into buying for her, then I'd get to test it while he paid for it. Hmm...

 

[pzaur]

Did you not read in my first post that I don't listen to country?

Missed that part on the read through. I'm in the same boat with you on the music...
BTW - you just encouraged me to have another listen through "Downward Spiral". Truly a great album!

-pat

 

[TJHUB]

Or these which would also look great in your room.

Rocket RS850
http://av123.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=27&category_id=19&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

Rocket RSC200
http://av123.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=30&category_id=19&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

Those were already on the list too. I've never had any chance to hear them, but when I considered floor standers for full range, these made the list. My only real issue with them is the rosewood, but I can take care of that...no problem. I have a small concern that the center channel speaker wouldn't fit above my current TV.

 

[TJHUB]

Missed that part on the read through. I'm in the same boat with you on the music...

-pat

Some of it isn't terrible, it has just never floated my boat. To be honest, I really don't mind watching CMT with volume muted. I don't like county music, but I do seem to appreciate a lot of county music videos.

 

[sparky77]

Trent Reznor, and His production team, Flood, are in fact perfectionists, and to a lot of redubs that is one of the criticizms of their music, but they do use the rather cheap ohmega speakers in the mixing studio so they can make the music sound more natural on lesser qualitly systems. I know, I'm a Reznor fan too, I listened to him record the piano track for "Something I Can Never Have" right accross the street from my house on a real grand piano. If you want the music to sound more like its intended, you may need a pair of these.

http://www.cerwinvega.com/CLS215.php

 

[Warpdrv]

Or these which would also look great in your room.

Rocket RS850
http://av123.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=shop.flypage&product_id=27&category_id=19&manufacturer_id=0&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=37

these will be at my house for the speaker shootout, up against the Studio 100's and the SVS MTS-01's... should be very interesting and enlightening...

Can't wait to get other peoples opinions of them and the comparisons..

^^Nice new pic ehh^^

 

[annunaki]

As a fan of NIN your speakers are actually fine and doing their job. They are revealing everything in the musical signal. While a perfectionist, Reznor uses a lot of distortion in his music to create his own sound. You are simply hearing distortion that was INTENDED to be there. The newer albums use more distortion than those in the past. They are actually fairly well recorded albums, but they have a lot of distortion in them... purposely. It is simply the sound he (Reznor) was after.

As for the Carrie Underwood issue, my wife and daughter listen to her, so in turn I hear it now and again. Her first cd was recorded fairly well and still had some resemblance of dynamic range. Her second disc is absolutely atrocious. It is hard to listen to as it is compressed so heavily and recorded so hot.

 

[pzaur]

Trent Reznor, and His production team, Flood, are in fact perfectionists, and to a lot of redubs that is one of the criticizms of their music, but they do use the rather cheap ohmega speakers in the mixing studio so they can make the music sound more natural on lesser qualitly systems. I know, I'm a Reznor fan too, I listened to him record the piano track for "Something I Can Never Have" right accross the street from my house on a real grand piano. If you want the music to sound more like its intended, you may need a pair of these.

http://www.cerwinvega.com/CLS215.php

Sparky77 -
Interesting info. I would imagine that he is not the first artist to mix for lesser quality systems.
Are you sure these wouldn't be better?
(I just couldn't bring myself to link the actual site...)

-pat

 

[sparky77]

Sparky77 -
Interesting info. I would imagine that he is not the first artist to mix for lesser quality systems.
Are you sure these wouldn't be better?
(I just couldn't bring myself to link the actual site...)

-pat

I'm not a big fan of the new CV's but they are still about 10 steps above the blowes.

 

[Sheep]

Can't wait to get other peoples opinions of them and the comparisons..

^^Nice new pic ehh^^

That picture is sex.

OP,

If your wife is okay with odd choices, I would run room treatments past her and inform her of the varying colors and finishes available. That is one method to fixing the problem.

You can change the speakers too, but they are not a guarantee. Room need treatment, always.

SheepStar

 

[gus6464]

If you want to hear if it's the speakers I suggest you get any Muse album. I will say listen to Hysteria on Absolution. That CD has so much dynamic compression that the electric guitar sounds like one long distortion. It will sound like NIN tracks where Reznor actually puts distortion in the music and you are supposed to hear it. If you hear distortion during this track like you do with NIN then it's not the speakers.

And BTW it's not the band as I have seen Muse live 4 times and they are absolutely amazing.

 

[Antus]

in my opinion, alumium tweeter on b&w is just like that. slightly "tining" on the top. some people decribe it as "more detailed", some said it's "harsh" but it's there.

and it is not just for 6, it's almost across the line. on N8xx, on old CM, too. however, b&w had address this "issue" in later model. dimand oberviously lower that "tinting" a bit.

some common ways, (at least what i know of) to address that are,
1. pair b&w with "wormer" sounds equipment. or something that will roll off the high end. (for example, tube pre-amp) or Denon receiver are famous for their "worm" sound.
2. alter the crossover. u can run a small resister in parallel to the driver, that will lower the tweeter a bit. or an inductor to roll off high tone.
3. if your pre/pro has room correction function, connect a mic and the auto EQ room correction might just solve the problem for you.

for new speaker, just go higher within bw family. recently, my dealer are running a closing out sale on 700 series. (he said b&w will update that line this year or so)

 

[sparky77]

My intent is not to highjack this thread but my impression on the tweeter progression is silk domes are mellow, soft domes such as the poly and fabric domes are in the midground, and titanium or other metal domes tend to be on the harsh side, that is when playing at levels above 40db, below that they all tend to be pretty close to equal. That does have to take into account the crossover frequency and the amount of rolloff. I've used a whole range of tweeters and the poly/fabric domes seem to be the most universal, but then again, that's purely subjective.

Not sure if your equipment uses any automatic eq'ing, but if it does, I would look over the processes, and if it has any gains in the midrange/tweeter crossover range, set them back to zero and it should pretty much eliminate the audible distortion. It's always better to cut frequencies than to add to them, it wastes amplifier power, and adds to distortion.

 

[TJHUB]

My intent is not to highjack this thread but my impression on the tweeter progression is silk domes are mellow, soft domes such as the poly and fabric domes are in the midground, and titanium or other metal domes tend to be on the harsh side, that is when playing at levels above 40db, below that they all tend to be pretty close to equal. That does have to take into account the crossover frequency and the amount of rolloff. I've used a whole range of tweeters and the poly/fabric domes seem to be the most universal, but then again, that's purely subjective.

Not sure if your equipment uses any automatic eq'ing, but if it does, I would look over the processes, and if it has any gains in the midrange/tweeter crossover range, set them back to zero and it should pretty much eliminate the audible distortion. It's always better to cut frequencies than to add to them, it wastes amplifier power, and adds to distortion.

I think your post is far from off topic here. My thoughts on my B&W's was that the metal dome tweeter's lower end was harshly revealing. My car's soft domes CAN sound this way, but not as easily.

I have no EQ'ing of any kind and I have no room correction. If anything I was considering passive bi-amping to allow me to raise/lower the tweeters compared to the mid/woofers. I still may, but I'm feeling too lazy to pull apart my entertainment center to try it.

 

[TJHUB]

Well, I think I've had a little success here. You guys that pointed out my excessive toe-in may have identified my issue. I say "may" because I'm still bouncing through a bunch of music to really see how I feel about the change in sound.

I have to tell you that I feel pretty foolish right now. I don't want to get into a long story, but when I first purchased these speakers I really didn't like them. I can't remember specifics exactly, but the overall tone wasn't as clean and clear as my previous B&W DM610's these 602's replaced. It wasn't until I toed them on axis with my listening position that I started to think they were good or even better than my old B&W's. Of course I've replaced my receiver twice and now I have the Emotiva separates. The Emo stuff has made a significant change for the better in sound. I can't tell you guys just how impressed I am with this gear. I really think it's something special...

So here's what I tried first. I sat and listened to a bunch of my favorite jazz music and then switched to Nine Inch Nails (I have all their CD's with the exception of one or two of the live or remix CD's). This gave me some time to have my ears/brain adjust to the sound and while I like the sound of the jazz, Nine Inch Nails sounded harsh and fatiguing.

I decided to try the speakers with no toe at all to see what happens. I also pulled them out from the wall about 6 more inches and moved them away from the cabinets about 4 inches.

To my surprise when playing Norah Jones (very focused center image), she was still very focused. I think maybe about 90% of the focus I had previously. This surprised me, but I'm not really sure why. It still sounds as though my center channel speaker is playing; very clearly playing. ALL GOOD!

I then switched over to Nine Inch Nails and things sound MUCH better. The harshness is gone and the distortion is clear. The music now has the sound I love from Trent. The music was now again the experience I love. Again, ALL GOOD! I bounced through about 20 tracks and never heard any harshness, but the B&W's are still VERY revealing. I like it...a lot.

I thought that SOME toe would be good, so I toed the speakers in what I'd guess is about 4 degrees; it's not much.

I'm listening to several jazz tracks while I'm typing this and things still sound really good. The tweeter level is definitely down some, but the clarity is still there. The sound is "warmer" for sure, but my initial thoughts are that I'd call it better. I need more listening time, but as I type this I'm only finding myself liking it more and more.

I also think my stage has more depth. It's hard to explain this, but the sounds seem more distant and blended. My room seems bigger and it sounds more realistic and spacious. Am I making sense? I'm also hearing a wider center image. The good thing is that the speakers still disappear in the room. With your eyes closed it's very difficult to discern exactly where they are. I've had that for some time and I'm very happy it's still there.

I need to give this more time, but I think you guys just saved me a bunch of cash. I have Peter White playing now and his guitar sounds freaking AWESOME. That spacious sound makes his guitar sound more real than ever. Very clean and clear. I'm having a hard time thinking any other speakers could sound better thus far. What a change!

BTW, I also have my SVS sub so perfectly blended with my speakers that I truly can't tell where the B&W's leave off and the SVS takes over. If you know Fourplay and Peter White's music, you know how bass heavy they are and it really sounds near perfect to me. Deep and clean, very transparent and no distortion. It's hard to tell the bass is being produced by a speaker.

Again, I don't know what the hell I was doing with these speakers on axis like that. What a huge mistake. If you guys knew me, you wouldn't think I'd make a mistake like that with my audio. Live and learn I guess.

Thank you guys for getting me to move these speakers. I'm really liking this a lot. That 20 some foot wall in front of me sounds like one giant speaker with no harshness and all the clarity I love. I can still here every little detail in the music. It may even be better. I'm already thinking I wouldn't change these speakers for anything right now... Unbelievable!

Thanks again. I'm going now because I have a lot of listening to do!

 

[cbraver]

I was typing while you were typing, and your response made my post a non-issue.

Glad you're happy now!

 

[TLS Guy]

My intent is not to highjack this thread but my impression on the tweeter progression is silk domes are mellow, soft domes such as the poly and fabric domes are in the midground, and titanium or other metal domes tend to be on the harsh side, that is when playing at levels above 40db, below that they all tend to be pretty close to equal. That does have to take into account the crossover frequency and the amount of rolloff. I've used a whole range of tweeters and the poly/fabric domes seem to be the most universal, but then again, that's purely subjective.

Not sure if your equipment uses any automatic eq'ing, but if it does, I would look over the processes, and if it has any gains in the midrange/tweeter crossover range, set them back to zero and it should pretty much eliminate the audible distortion. It's always better to cut frequencies than to add to them, it wastes amplifier power, and adds to distortion.

The principal reason for tweeter harshness is poor crossover design. All tweeters need to be at least 24 db down at resonance. Tweeters vary in Fs from 1500 Hz to about 450 Hz. Now some designers think they can get away with a tweeter down about 12 db at resonance but you can't.

Now if a tweeter is properly designed it should not matter much what the cone is made of to an extent. However if you make a rigid cone, then there will be a sudden break up mode. Now usually with metal tweeters the breakup mode is around 25 to 30 KHz. This as out of the audio band, but there is debate as to whether this effects the sound. B & W have taken to making tweeters of diamond to get the first break up mode well out of the audio band.

Now a soft dome tweeter does not move as a coherent whole, yet they work well. I personally have a slight preference for soft domes. But I have a bias. I think this drive for rigid cones in all drivers except subs is wrong headed. Now that's controversial. What is needed is a radiating areas that decreases in proportion to frequency in a controlled and predictable manner. Now driver manufacturers please listen up!

 

[Sheep]

My intent is not to highjack this thread but my impression on the tweeter progression is silk domes are mellow, soft domes such as the poly and fabric domes are in the midground, and titanium or other metal domes tend to be on the harsh side, that is when playing at levels above 40db, below that they all tend to be pretty close to equal. That does have to take into account the crossover frequency and the amount of rolloff. I've used a whole range of tweeters and the poly/fabric domes seem to be the most universal, but then again, that's purely subjective.

Not sure if your equipment uses any automatic eq'ing, but if it does, I would look over the processes, and if it has any gains in the midrange/tweeter crossover range, set them back to zero and it should pretty much eliminate the audible distortion. It's always better to cut frequencies than to add to them, it wastes amplifier power, and adds to distortion.

You need to understand what happens when you turn up the volume.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fletcher-Munson_curves

Read this article, it will explain what happens with the human ear when the volume is turned up.

As far as material, I have heard harsh Silk dome tweeters, and mellow aluminum domes. It depends on the design of the tweeter.

SheepStar

 

[Seth=L]

That picture is sex.

LOL.

Edit: the message I entered was too short