Narrowed choices down to 3 a/v receivers

[weremichael]

... The popping and delays I could deal with, they are minor annoyances, not problems with the equipment.

I am confused by this statement. I can understand that you can live with the popping and audio dropout/delay but to say that it is not a problem with the equipment is dead wrong. So is having popping/audio dropout/delay a design flaw or an added feature?? How many of the other receivers (Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon, Sony, Marantz etc) in that price range have these same Speaker popping and Audio dropout/delay "features?" None that I know of.

I have an old Integra receiver that I love, yet I know better than to buy an 805 right now. They have serious issues for people that use PS3s and for those of us with DVRs. I wouldn't want to spend $700 or more on a receiver that delays audio for 2-3 seconds after I skipped commercials on a recorded show or when I change channels. To me that is unacceptable and a result of sloppy design.

 

[Seth=L]

I am confused by this statement. I can understand that you can live with the popping and audio dropout/delay but to say that it is not a problem with the equipment is dead wrong. So is having popping/audio dropout/delay a design flaw or an added feature?? How many of the other receivers (Pioneer, Yamaha, Denon, Sony, Marantz etc) in that price range have these same Speaker popping and Audio dropout/delay "features?" None that I know of.

I have an old Integra receiver that I love, yet I know better than to buy an 805 right now. They have serious issues for people that use PS3s and for those of us with DVRs. I wouldn't want to spend $700 or more on a receiver that delays audio for 2-3 seconds after I skipped commercials on a recorded show or when I change channels. To me that is unacceptable and a result of sloppy design.

It's a design flaw more than likely, but I don't think it will determine it's reliability. It's just my perspective of it.

 

[PENG]

I agree, so weight is not the only factor I use. A company's reputation, and amplifier type are other factors. If the manufacturer supplies the public with a VA rating, as well as capacitance, it is helpful. They generally don't have the capacitance, but you can always peek under the hood to find that.

I assume you are talking about the power consumption figures given usually on the owner's manual specification page. Denon provides the current rating, (7.2A for the 3808) so 7.2X120=864 VA. The problem remains in that for example HK provides the maximum watts but Denon specifies just VA or watts not the maximum VA/Watts. We are left with guessing what the maximum is. Yamaha is beginning to specify both watts and maximum watts in their later models such as the 1800 and 3800 if I remember right. Capacitance is an important factor especially in terms of high instantaneous current capability but as you said they generally don't provide that information.

 

[weremichael]

It's a design flaw more than likely, but I don't think it will determine it's reliability. It's just my perspective of it.

I agree completely that the speaker popping/delay is in no way a sign of reliability. If the receiver has any issues with reliability it will be in regards to the amount of heat that it generates.

I went to a local store that sells them and turned it to -10 while watching Transformers for about 20 minutes and it got very hot to the touch. The salesperson told me that when they played the film at reference level (0) the 805 had turned itself off and the red standby light just blinked on and off.

I assume that they must have a bum unit, but from what others say on AVS and this forum that might not be the case.

 

[landonspop]

Let me ask this.

How many of you would buy an Onkyo 805 if it were the same price as the Denon 3808 or any other reciever mentioned in this thread (MSRP of approx. $1600)?

I asked myself this before deciding, and I said I would not. I wanted the best I could get for less than $1500.00.

Most things sell easy when the price equals or beats the perceived value.

 

[Seth=L]

Let me ask this.

How many of you would buy an Onkyo 805 if it were the same price as the Denon 3808 or any other reciever mentioned in this thread (MSRP of approx. $1600)?

I asked myself this before deciding, and I said I would not. I wanted the best I could get for less than $1500.00.

Most things sell easy when the price equals or beats the perceived value.

Everyone knows my vote, TX-SR805. I am just thick that way. The Denon is a great receiver no doubt, I just like the look and power of the Onkyo better.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I asked myself this before deciding, and I said I would not. I wanted the best I could get for less than $1500.00.

I'm sorry, but, for $1,500, there is no question I would get an Emotiva XPA-5 ($700 200 wpc x 5 Ch amp) + Emotiva LMC-2 ($700 pre-pros w/ 4 HDMI-1.3, TrueHD, & DTS-MA).

 

[Nomo]

I'm sorry, but, for $1,500, there is no question I would get an Emotiva XPA-5 ($700 200 wpc x 5 Ch amp) + Emotiva LMC-2 ($700 pre-pros w/ 4 HDMI-1.3, TrueHD, & DTS-MA).

The only problem with Emo pre-amps is their lack of internal EQing, whether auto or manual.
Yes, depending on your skill level, you go nuts with a radio shack meter to even out the speaker levels. But without the equalization available in the offerings from the big boys alot of rooms would be pretty much screwed without a fair amount of relatively expensive room treatments. And room treatments are not always an option cosmetically.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I went to a local store that sells them and turned it to -10 while watching Transformers for about 20 minutes and it got very hot to the touch. The salesperson told me that when they played the film at reference level (0) the 805 had turned itself off and the red standby light just blinked on and off.

I assume that they must have a bum unit, but from what others say on AVS and this forum that might not be the case.

Maybe they paired it up with the wrong speakers at reference levels?

 

[Addy]

simple...denon avr 3808ci

 

[Seth=L]

I assume you are talking about the power consumption figures given usually on the owner's manual specification page. Denon provides the current rating, (7.2A for the 3808) so 7.2X120=864 VA. The problem remains in that for example HK provides the maximum watts but Denon specifies just VA or watts not the maximum VA/Watts. We are left with guessing what the maximum is. Yamaha is beginning to specify both watts and maximum watts in their later models such as the 1800 and 3800 if I remember right. Capacitance is an important factor especially in terms of high instantaneous current capability but as you said they generally don't provide that information.

I missed this post. There are so many things we can talk about it's just crazy. Yamaha has started putting the VA ratings on their receivers. Pioneer has VA ratings on their receivers. The JVC RX-DP9 has the VA rating on it. So are wattage and VA the same thing? I always thought the VA ratings was for the transformer only, while the wattage was just the power consumption of the unit. (I am aware that volts*amperes=wattage. And it would seem VA would be the shorthand of volts*amperes, I just want to be sure.)

 

[PENG]

I missed this post. There are so many things we can talk about it's just crazy. Yamaha has started putting the VA ratings on their receivers. Pioneer has VA ratings on their receivers. The JVC RX-DP9 has the VA rating on it. So are wattage and VA the same thing? I always thought the VA ratings was for the transformer only, while the wattage was just the power consumption of the unit. (I am aware that volts*amperes=wattage. And it would seem VA would be the shorthand of volts*amperes, I just want to be sure.)

Seth, yes VA is simply voltageXcurrent (shorthand sort of), regardless of the phase angle between the voltage phasor (called vector in the old days) and the current phasor. VA is also known as apparent power, Watt is known as real power.

Watt=voltXcurrentXpower factor, power factor is the cosine (a trigonometry term) of the phase angle between voltage and current. If you want to understand this in a more physical/tangible way you can search the web. I find it easier to just go through the math with you here.

For a pure inductive load, if you apply an a.c. voltage across it, the resulting current will lag the voltage by 90 degree.

For a purely capacitive load, the current will lead the voltage by 90 degree. Or conversely you can say the voltage lagging the current.

Cosine 90 degree=0, so a purely reactive load (either capacitive or inducive) will not consume any real power but it will still draw current, hence VA but not watt.

For a reactive load that is not purely inductive or capacitive because it has a resistance component, the phase angle between volt and current is less than 90 degree.

Cosine30 degree=0.866
Cosine 45 degree=0.707
Cosine 60 degree=0.5

The formula Power (watts)=VXIXCos() can be applied to the input side or the output side of the transformer or at the final output of the amplifier. You can use it to calculate the power input to a transformer by measuring the applying voltage and the resulting current and the phase angle between the two all at the same time.

Let's consider a 3808 with 1 channel going and it draws 2A from the 120V main at a power factor of 0.9 lagging (that is slightly inductive)

Power consumption=120VX2AX0.9=240VA or 216W on the input side of the transformer so this is the power the amplifier consumes.

Further assume that under this condition, the amplifier output voltage is 30V and the load impedance is 6 ohms, and the current lags (inductive) voltage by 30 degrees.

Apparent Power Draw (VA)=30X30/6=150 VA or,
Real Power Consumption (Watt)=150XCos(30)=150X0.866=129.9 W

Overall efficiency=Power Output at the load/Power draw from the 120V output=129.9/216=60%.

Obviously the numbers used are fictitious, but I hope it helps explain the relationship between VA, Watt, efficieny somewhat.

The point of my previous post is that you cannot compare the spec of HK to Denon, but you could, with the latest Yamaha model because Yamaha is beginning to provide both power consumption and maximum power consumption. HK seems to always provide maximum power consumption only. When they say power consumption they always refer to the power draw from the 120V outlet. Maximum would simply mean ACD to rated output.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I thought he might be thinking of buckeyefan1. If I remember correctly he uses 33 lbs as the threshold.

.

Yes, he is the one I was thinking about. Haven't seen him in a long while.
Thanks.

 

[20Glove]

It would be close! 805, 875, and 3808 are the best!

Let me ask this.

How many of you would buy an Onkyo 805 if it were the same price as the Denon 3808 or any other reciever mentioned in this thread (MSRP of approx. $1600)?

I asked myself this before deciding, and I said I would not. I wanted the best I could get for less than $1500.00.

Most things sell easy when the price equals or beats the perceived value.

I would seriously consider buying the 805 if it was in the same price range! But first of all it is not!! So the price is SOOOOOOOO Right!

I own a 3808 as well as a 805 and I am HAPPY with both. When comparing the 805 with the 3808 what is different? Network capability on the 3808... yes... anything else?? Watts are the same... so add network capability and yes I would have a hard time choosing between the 805 and 3808... both sound OUTSTANDING!!!

But this is like comparing apples to oranges... b/c of one major feature... and I do like the feature... but c'mon... are you telling me the 805 not priced under what it should be... $999??? To me it is a system that should be in the same price range as the Yama 1800... Elite 92TXH... sony 4300es... and 2808.... now from these which would you choose?!? That is the real question!!

Do not compare it to the 3808... b/c it has the network capability.. which in my opinion was the reason to buy the 3808 first!! But the 805 comparing red apples to green apples with the subtle differences should be the question at hand... add network capability and I would have a hard choice between the denon and the onkyo!!! To be honest!

 

[Mark in GA]

Well I have a Onkyo 875 and I have not had any trouble with popping. I have the 1.04 firmware. My unit did get very very hot, but I wired up a pair of 120mm case-cooling fans and now I do not have any heat issues. It never gets more than warm to the touch. And that is with mine being inside an entertainment center cabinet.

Later,
Mark in GA

 

[Seth=L]

Well I have a Onkyo 875 and I have not had any trouble with popping. I have the 1.04 firmware. My unit did get very very hot, but I wired up a pair of 120mm case-cooling fans and now I do not have any heat issues. It never gets more than warm to the touch. And that is with mine being inside an entertainment center cabinet.

Later,
Mark in GA

I like your style.

 

[Seth=L]

Seth, yes VA is simply voltageXcurrent (shorthand sort of), regardless of the phase angle between the voltage phasor (called vector in the old days) and the current phasor. VA is also known as apparent power, Watt is known as real power.

Watt=voltXcurrentXpower factor, power factor is the cosine (a trigonometry term) of the phase angle between voltage and current. If you want to understand this in a more physical/tangible way you can search the web. I find it easier to just go through the math with you here........

I need to do a lot of research apparently, I have no idea what inductive means, or much of the terminology in your post. I haven't gotten to interested in how amplifiers work yet. I understand a few things, but obviously not a whole lot. Thanks for taking the time to make your post. When I have a better understanding of what this stuff means I will come back and read this again.

 

[landonspop]

I would seriously consider buying the 805 if it was in the same price range! But first of all it is not!! So the price is SOOOOOOOO Right!

I own a 3808 as well as a 805 and I am HAPPY with both. When comparing the 805 with the 3808 what is different? Network capability on the 3808... yes... anything else?? Watts are the same... so add network capability and yes I would have a hard time choosing between the 805 and 3808... both sound OUTSTANDING!!!

But this is like comparing apples to oranges... b/c of one major feature... and I do like the feature... but c'mon... are you telling me the 805 not priced under what it should be... $999??? To me it is a system that should be in the same price range as the Yama 1800... Elite 92TXH... sony 4300es... and 2808.... now from these which would you choose?!? That is the real question!!

Do not compare it to the 3808... b/c it has the network capability.. which in my opinion was the reason to buy the 3808 first!! But the 805 comparing red apples to green apples with the subtle differences should be the question at hand... add network capability and I would have a hard choice between the denon and the onkyo!!! To be honest!

I wanted the best AVR I could buy with a budget of $1500.00. If I felt the Onkyo was better than 3808 and it is under my budget, I would have gotten it. I didn't nessesarily need to spend $1500.00. I did not originally try to compare the 805 to the 3808, others mentioned this. I am still not convinced that there is a foolproof perfect AVR for this price or any price after reading some more reviews. But thier has to be a best in a price range. One website had the 3808 3rd behind the Onk 895 and a P Elite 894thx. Another, Cnet, had it 2nd behind Sony 5300. I think I have gotten more confused since I started reading about these rec's.

Most reviews patty cake the negative issues. Cons are usually about the remote. Give me the real negatives about the receivers.

The 2 negs I have found with the 3808 are:
1) will not pass 1080p component thru hdmi 1080p
2) no serius ( but I can buy receiver without seeing display on tv, I think)

Any input on these 2 items? Am I confused? Is this an issue? Am I missing anymore? I do like the fact that it is network ready, for updates, playing music from laptop and controlling menu from laptop. I like the sound of the Yamaha 3800, but it doesn't get good reviews for video. I am wondering if it might be smart to wait for one more generation. I know they always make improvements, but since hdmi is still changing, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3........ plus blu ray players keep changing also. Maybe there are still some major bugs to fix.

Thanks for all input

 

[bandphan]

keep the unit you have there is nothing wrong with it. You made a good choice. your op was for input and you recieved alot, dont let peoples personal preferences change your mind or you will be getting new components everytime they do.You did great, so enjoy it, and im betting dollars to donuts that you would have a hard time hearing the differnce.

 

[20Glove]

Keep what you have! GREAT choice!

I wanted the best AVR I could buy with a budget of $1500.00. If I felt the Onkyo was better than 3808 and it is under my budget, I would have gotten it. I didn't nessesarily need to spend $1500.00. I did not originally try to compare the 805 to the 3808, others mentioned this. I am still not convinced that there is a foolproof perfect AVR for this price or any price after reading some more reviews. But thier has to be a best in a price range. One website had the 3808 3rd behind the Onk 895 and a P Elite 894thx. Another, Cnet, had it 2nd behind Sony 5300. I think I have gotten more confused since I started reading about these rec's.

Most reviews patty cake the negative issues. Cons are usually about the remote. Give me the real negatives about the receivers.

The 2 negs I have found with the 3808 are:
1) will not pass 1080p component thru hdmi 1080p
2) no serius ( but I can buy receiver without seeing display on tv, I think)

Any input on these 2 items? Am I confused? Is this an issue? Am I missing anymore? I do like the fact that it is network ready, for updates, playing music from laptop and controlling menu from laptop. I like the sound of the Yamaha 3800, but it doesn't get good reviews for video. I am wondering if it might be smart to wait for one more generation. I know they always make improvements, but since hdmi is still changing, 1.1, 1.2, 1.3........ plus blu ray players keep changing also. Maybe there are still some major bugs to fix.

Thanks for all input

Landon keep the 3808 it is a GREAT machine. I was just pointing out the the Onkyo 805 could compete with others that were more expensive receivers. Also, pointing out that the 805 is (in my opinion) is under priced... or maybe priced what others should be priced.

I have both the 3808 and 805 and I LOVE them both. I had a budget of $1500 this summer/fall and I bought the 3808 2 days after the store received them... would have been sooner but it took them two days to put in to inventory.

I am a Denon guy at heart! I just kept thinking that I liked the Onkyo 875 so much I decided to sell my Denon 3805 and after months of patience I sold my Denon 3805 I would only take a certain amount that is why I was so patient.

The night I sold my 3805 I walked in to get the Onkyo 875, Pioneer 92Txh, or the Yama 1800. I heard all of them being played... and with the suggestion from Seth L I also listened to the 805.. I was sold... The 805 and the 875 were the best sounding receivers I heard. My salesman said you get 10 more watts with the 875 and the video processor, he was straight up with me and told me the video processor was not worth the extra $450. So I went with the 805.

The best thing is... I got home late on Monday after purchasing the 805 and did not set it up... then I had a voice mail from my salesman that said they were selling an open box... I took a look at it and I ended up giving back the new in the box receiver and took the open box and walked away with this AWESOME receiver for $594.60 + tax. Cheaper than a new Onkyo 705 in the box. So for that price... how could I have remorse!

As for the new HDMI standards... 1.3a has the deep black, x.v.y.c color, Dolby TrueHD, 1080P/24/30/60 pass through, 120hz processing, lip sync, and DTS Master Audio HD... the standards of deep black and new color are not even being used yet. So I think you are safe with your 3808 receiver for YEARS! I mean I do not see 1440P in the near future (at least 5 years or more), and there are no new game systems on the way... for at least 5 years so you are safe and you bought in my opinion one the years best 3 receivers within the $1500 - $1600 price range!

If you hook up Sirius... you just need to hook it up through one of your audio inputs (red/white audio cables that you get with the Sirius home receiver).

GREAT Choice.... STAY with it!