What do really need?

[steinoch]

Hello, This question is more geared toward video processing but I have always had excellent advice through this forum over the years.

I am currently running a blu ray player directly to a Pani PT AE2000U. The picture quality is breath-taking. Now, the problem is my Yami rx v2600 does not handle 1080p therefore the signal cycles on and off at about 0.5 Hz unless I down grade the resolution. THerefore my PDR is plugged into the receiver but the blu ray is not.

My solution was to buy a new receiver that support 1.3 HDMI. My question is: how much processing do I really want when sending a signal from my player to the projector? Is this "processing " only done when a lower resolution is sent though it?

I am looking at the Onyko TX SR805, vs Onyko TX SR875, vs Denon 3808ci. The Onyko 805 look very attractive as far as audio. And considering all I really want it to do is send the blu ray signal to the projector unchanged why would I need all of the video processing.

Sorry about the drawn out question.

 

[Seth=L]

The Onkyo TX-SR805 would be an excellent choice IMO. The TX-SR875 offers no advantage in terms of power or features other than the scaler (which you say you won't be using). I personally I wouldn't purchase the TX-SR875 just because with the money saved I could buy a Blu-ray player, nearly negating the purpose of a scaler. The Denon has the networking feature, but I would have no use for it. I believe that the amplifier section in the Onkyo would be superior to the Denon's as well.

 

[steinoch]

So is video processing the only advantage for the Denon?

 

[Davemcc]

So is video processing the only advantage for the Denon?

Not at all. The Onkyo 805 and Denon 3808 both use the Faroudja DCDi video chip. The Onkyo 875 uses the Reon-HQV chip, which I understand to be a superior chip to the Faroudja.

The possible benefits of having a better scaling chip are that a) you can use it to upscale your DVR signal, or other legacy video sources, or b) it might be better than the scaler in your TV. The best you can hope for when sending a 1080p signal from a BD player is that the receiver will pass through the signal cleanly, without degradation. The BD signal has no need of processing.

 

[Cozmo]

Not at all. The Onkyo 805 and Denon 3808 both use the Faroudja DCDi video chip. The Onkyo 875 uses the Reon-HQV chip, which I understand to be a superior chip to the Faroudja.

The possible benefits of having a better scaling chip are that a) you can use it to upscale your DVR signal, or other legacy video sources, or b) it might be better than the scaler in your TV. The best you can hope for when sending a 1080p signal from a BD player is that the receiver will pass through the signal cleanly, without degradation. The BD signal has no need of processing.

Dave,

Regarding your point b) above. Is there an easy way to tell other than A/B test which is better? For example, I am looking at purchasing a Sanyo PLV-Z5 projector and the only thing I can find on the scaling are:

"Using the 12-Bit Digital Processing IC, the PLV-Z5 achieves a high image quality with video decoder, scaler and gamma curve generator. The result is the reproduction of deeper, richer images. And thanks to greatly improved calculating precision, the PLV-Z5 renders even tiny nuances in expressive details."

So without A/B testing, I'm not sure if it would be better to spend the extra $$$ on the 875 without more details.

 

[Seth=L]

Not at all. The Onkyo 805 and Denon 3808 both use the Faroudja DCDi video chip. The Onkyo 875 uses the Reon-HQV chip, which I understand to be a superior chip to the Faroudja.

The possible benefits of having a better scaling chip are that a) you can use it to upscale your DVR signal, or other legacy video sources, or b) it might be better than the scaler in your TV. The best you can hope for when sending a 1080p signal from a BD player is that the receiver will pass through the signal cleanly, without degradation. The BD signal has no need of processing.

The Onkyo TX-SR805 does not scale. The Faroudja chipset in the Onkyo only does 480p. The Denon can scale, but I feel it is a rather useless feature.

 

[Davemcc]

Dave,

Regarding your point b) above. Is there an easy way to tell other than A/B test which is better? For example, I am looking at purchasing a Sanyo PLV-Z5 projector and the only thing I can find on the scaling are:

"Using the 12-Bit Digital Processing IC, the PLV-Z5 achieves a high image quality with video decoder, scaler and gamma curve generator. The result is the reproduction of deeper, richer images. And thanks to greatly improved calculating precision, the PLV-Z5 renders even tiny nuances in expressive details."

Scaling is a far more complex issue than it may seem. I haven't entirely wrapped my head around it all, but I'm trying. For instance, that projector has a resolution of 1280x720, while other displays might have 1366x768, etc. If you are just sending a generic "720p" signal, the display will still have to scale it to its own specific native resolution. Some expensive stand-alone video processors will let you choose such a specific resolution, but then you run into the issue of 1:1 pixel mapping, or more specifically the display's inability to allow 1:1 pixel mapping or to turn the display's scaler off to solely use an external scaler.

I think the real benefit of a good scaler in a receiver lies more in de-interlacing than scaling. A good deinterlacer can create an image with fewer jaggies, artifacts or motion blur. Even then, the interplay of components can either work beneficially or not. You could send a good progressive scan image in 720p, only to find that the display re-scales the image to its native format poorly.

So without A/B testing, I'm not sure if it would be better to spend the extra $$$ on the 875 without more details.

Unfortunately, I haven't seen any way to predict what the effect of different components might have on the video signal. I couldn't say if the Sanyo has a good scaler/deinterlacer or how it processes signals that have already been scaled or deinterlaced. At this point, the only thing I could suggest is to get the best components you can and experiment with where different functions are performed. Choose components with a good return policy and let your own eyes be the judge.

 

[Johnd]

The Onkyo TX-SR805 does not scale. The Faroudja chipset in the Onkyo only does 480p. The Denon can scale, but I feel it is a rather useless feature.

Seth, as always, your wealth of information has made the choice simpler (for me...in the future). Thanks.

 

[Seth=L]

Seth, as always, your wealth of information has made the choice simpler (for me...in the future). Thanks.

I made the same mistake as you concerning the TX-SR605 a long time ago. I thought that it had a scaler as well, how wrong I was.

 

[Davemcc]

The Onkyo TX-SR805 does not scale. The Faroudja chipset in the Onkyo only does 480p. The Denon can scale, but I feel it is a rather useless feature.

I knew that, then forgot when I needed to know it.

Having said that, I really wish I had even the simplest deinterlacing function right now, even the 480p of the Onkyo. My TV will not receive 480i over HDMI, so I have to run a separate component video cable just to see the Escient OSD on my TV. Even the 805's basic processing would cure that for me.

 

[Johnd]

I made the same mistake as you concerning the TX-SR605 a long time ago. I thought that it had a scaler as well, how wrong I was.

Oh, I have none of that. I have the Denon 5803. Great receiver, but a dinosaur by today's standards. I was referring to your breaking down the difference(s) between the 805 and 875...for future reference. Thanks.

 

[steinoch]

Side note: where do you guys get 480i signals. Everything my DVD player or avr puts out has been 480p(according to my projector).

Is the take home message here: that the video processing in these receivers is generally not helpful?

or am I reading this wrong?

 

[Seth=L]

Side note: where do you guys get 480i signals. Everything my DVD player or avr puts out has been 480p(according to my projector).

Is the take home message here: that the video processing in these receivers is generally not helpful?

or am I reading this wrong?

It's not that they can't be helpful, but Blu-ray players, HD DVD players, new DVD players, and HDTVs all have scalers built in. The only way you might match or beat the Scalers in a TV or HD player would be to get a high end receiver probably going over $1000. IMO, it's not necessary in a converting to HD world. This is just my opinion.

 

[Cozmo]

Scaling is a far more complex issue than it may seem. I haven't entirely wrapped my head around it all, but I'm trying. For instance, that projector has a resolution of 1280x720, while other displays might have 1366x768, etc. If you are just sending a generic "720p" signal, the display will still have to scale it to its own specific native resolution. Some expensive stand-alone video processors will let you choose such a specific resolution, but then you run into the issue of 1:1 pixel mapping, or more specifically the display's inability to allow 1:1 pixel mapping or to turn the display's scaler off to solely use an external scaler.

I think the real benefit of a good scaler in a receiver lies more in de-interlacing than scaling. A good deinterlacer can create an image with fewer jaggies, artifacts or motion blur. Even then, the interplay of components can either work beneficially or not. You could send a good progressive scan image in 720p, only to find that the display re-scales the image to its native format poorly.



Unfortunately, I haven't seen any way to predict what the effect of different components might have on the video signal. I couldn't say if the Sanyo has a good scaler/deinterlacer or how it processes signals that have already been scaled or deinterlaced. At this point, the only thing I could suggest is to get the best components you can and experiment with where different functions are performed. Choose components with a good return policy and let your own eyes be the judge.

Thanks for the detailed response Dave. This issue is confusing and there are multiple paths for signal enhancement and/or degradation. It's especially difficult if you cannot A/B something to see which gives the best performance.

 

[steinoch]

Let's say there is a reason I frequent audioholics.com. Audio quality is extremely important. The Onyko 805 has the audio chops. I'm just wondering if is worth an additional $1000 or more to add video processing that may not be useful.

At this time I have a blu ray player, AVR on which I recod/watch 720p or 1080i material, and finally a HTPC from which i can watch what ever resolution i want even with standard DVD's.

thanx for all of the responses