Differences between high current amps and normal ones

mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Anyway, I was just trying to make the point that a 20 WPC X2 Class A solid state amp that weighs 48 lbs for sure has high current capability but it is not going to be higher than that of any mid range 120WX7 (e.g. RX-V2600, Denon AVR3805) receiver that have been tested to do well over 200 W into 4 ohms with 2 channels driven simultaneously. The high current thing is real, but it is all relative..
One of those nights;)

Yes, while the name changed, it is still a lot of $$$$ for so little power.
I am not sure about it being a real high current unit though. It does deliver 40 watts into 4 ohms so whatever MR. Ohms has to say about the current, ;) I doubt it is very high:D
40 watts= I*R about 3A, wow. :D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
During most playback, the meter would just hover around 1 or 2 watts. But when there are bass heavy passages, the meter would swing all the way to the other end. I guess the larger power supply in an external amp deals better with these bass peaks than the smaller power supply in a mid range receiver.
Again, it all depends:D What was the other end of that meter;)

And, if that bass doesn't need more than 100 watts, then that receiver will deliver that power or whatever the dynamic capability is.
One reason to have a powered sub.

I have seen center speaker set to large, amp driving it that had meter/lights for power, hardly ever over 10 watts with powerful stuff. But, the sub/LFE certainly was demanding into the 100+ range:D
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
As a long-time Magneplanar owner, I can assure you that for some of us it is ALL about the current.

Not all speakers have the same requirements, but some speakers crave current and will not "light up" until they get it.
Current cannot come without voltage and impedance. And, a combination of these will give you the delivered power. It is that simple.
40watts into a 4 ohm load is only 3A, hardly much of a current, as an example from that expensive amp, $4k, that can deliver only 40 watts into a 4 Ohm speaker.:D
On the other hand, insensitive speakers need more power, or, a very loud peak needs more power. In the end, it is power as these are all interconnected and not separable.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
So in your opinion, what kind of receivers would have a larger power supply that can adequately drive 4 ohm speakers?
.
Just yesterday, I think, or th eday before at the most, receivers and separates came up and how the YamXXX 100 watts is not the same as another amps 100 watts:D Well, that Yam was reviewd here, I think it was something like the 995 or 665, something, was rated into 4 Ohms of continuoius power very nicely.

Why guess:D Here you go.

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/yamaha-rx-v659/rx-v659-measurements-analysis
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
For the most part, when magazine reviewers talk about how an amplifier sounds, they are expressing a subjective opinion which, unfortunately, isn't very meaningful. .
Precisely. :D
Controls? What controls!!!
So, their comments are really unreliable at best and unfortunately, it is feeding the confusion out there and the urban legends, myths continue :mad:

Also, that insensitive speaker example, it was only rated to 80 watt capacity. If that is correct, that is not much even into that 3 ohm load. those speakers will be dogs no matter what. 82 dB sensitivity plus 19 dB spl is it. Subtract the listening distance loss, and it is a dog.
 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
Yeah I am talking about separates. I know there isn't a receiver out there that can handle them. Strictly 2ch listening.
Now wait a minute. If that speaker example was a real speaker, was the power capability also correct, 80 watts?

As to a receiver, better check the Yam 659
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/receivers/yamaha-rx-v659/rx-v659-measurements-analysis

That has plenty of power into an 4 ohm load. If 200 watts not enough, not sure what you are looking for.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
One of those nights;)

Yes, while the name changed, it is still a lot of $$$$ for so little power.
I am not sure about it being a real high current unit though. It does deliver 40 watts into 4 ohms so whatever MR. Ohms has to say about the current, ;) I doubt it is very high:D
40 watts= I*R about 3A, wow. :D
OK. Class A 20 watt into 4 ohm. Power is the square of the current X resistance. So 20 X 4 is 80. Square root of 80, 9 amps near enough.

Class AB amp delivering 200 watts into four ohms.

200 X 4 is 800. The square root of 800 is 28.28 amps. Which amp has the greater current delivery?
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
One of those nights;)

Yes, while the name changed, it is still a lot of $$$$ for so little power.
I am not sure about it being a real high current unit though. It does deliver 40 watts into 4 ohms so whatever MR. Ohms has to say about the current, ;) I doubt it is very high:D
40 watts= I*R about 3A, wow. :D
It doubles down, and has a transformer as big as one of those 7X100W receiver so I would qualify it as a high current amp, but of course only relatively speaking as you said, "40W, 3A,wow" (much higher peaks though I am sure). I do realize that its big transformer is needed partly because of the super low efficiency of Class A. Still it probably sounds better than a lot of 200 WPC amp at low to moderate volume and thus disprove (sort of) the argument that even a low listening level a >200 WPC amp is needed to provide better SQ.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
It doubles down, and has a transformer as big as one of those 7X100W receiver so I would qualify it as a high current amp, but of course only relatively speaking as you said, "40W, 3A,wow" (much higher peaks though I am sure). I do realize that its big transformer is needed partly because of the super low efficiency of Class A. Still it probably sounds better than a lot of 200 WPC amp at low to moderate volume and thus disapprove (sort of) the argument that even a low listening level a >200 WPC amp is needed to provide better SQ.
Of course the 20 watt class A is not a high current amp. If it was it would deliver more power to the load!

Now the sound quality issue. If the 200 watt amp is operating class B at 20 watts the 20 watt class a would likely sound better. Now if the 200 watt amp was operating within its Class A operating target, then it would likely sound better. It would just have to have lower THD.

Now if this was an amp that was poorly designed and went to class B bias between five and ten watts, then all bets are off. This is were the specs don't tell you the story. They quote THD at full power. Few quote THD at low power. This is where I'm so suspicious of the seven high powered amp and a pre processor in the same case. That is what arouses my suspicions. Where is the transfer point form class A to B. You can't easily find that out can you? That is really what we should talk about. Apart from that this thread is asking the wrong questions and not very useful. Even the title of this thread is nonsense!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Of course the 20 watt class A is not a high current amp. If it was it would deliver more power to the load!
I said relatively speaking! This amp weighs over 48 lbs, has a 540VA P/S transformer in it. I know it is necessarily big due to the Class A's inherently low efficiency. Relative to other 20W into 8 ohms amps this one is high current capable and it doubles down.

As to comparing its SQ to 200W amps, I am not comparing it to 200W class A amps. Most of the time when people around here talk about 200WPC amps they are not talking about Class A. If you are comparing this 20W amp to a more powerful one of the SAME MAKE then I agree with you the higher power one would likely have lower distortion figures though at low volume the resulting difference would also likely be inaudible.

Now this other amp (follow the link below) is only rated 60WX2, but I am going to call it high current capable whether you agree or not. Again, it is "relative". This thing doubles down from 8 ohms to 4, 2, and all the way to 480W into 1 ohm and frequency response from D.C. to 130 kHz.

http://www.onahighernote.com/luxman/?c=4&id=35

And we are way off topic!!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
For Peng's benefit I used the term impedance rather than resistance. But most people are familiar wit Ohm's law and I hope I have not added another confounding factor. Just substitute I for R in the Ohm's law equation.
Well, let me be more specific this time. You and I both know the impedance of a loudspeaker is dynamic in nature. It is reactive for the most part and can change from inductive to resistive to capacitive (as you cited in your previous post). I appreciate the fact that you want to keep things simple and in your previous math demo you assumed a 4 ohm load is purely resistive (based on the fact that on the power side you use watts as unit). Please be reminded that watts represents real power, VA represents apparent power.

The problem is, let's say speaker A is highly inductive at around 50 to 70 Hz and speaker B is only slighly inductive at the same frequencies and the impedance of both are 4 ohms. Let's further assume speaker A is inductive to the point that current lags voltage by 60 degrees. Cosine 60=0.5 so the current required by speaker A to develop the same power (watts) will have to be higher than that required by speaker B even though both speakers measures 4 ohms in terms of impedance (again with A being highly inductive and B just a touch inductive).

In other words, you can't just keep using the formula Power in watts=V*V/Z (Z being the symbol for impedance) because it is incorrect. It will be correct if you use Power in VA (volt-amps)=V*V/Z, or otherwise you assume the 4 ohm load is purely resistive, then P(watts)=V*V/R is correct.

Conversely, let's consider the following:

Speaker A impedance=4 ohms and current lags voltage by 60 degrees at a particular frequency and speaker B impedance=4 ohms, current and voltage are in phase (0 degree between V & I) i.e. purely resistive within the frequency range we are considering.

Now, if we fix the voltage at 40V.
We all know Ohm's law, I=V/Z so I=40/4=10A for both speakers A and B.

However, power (watts)=VIcosΘ (phase angle between V&I)
So Power (watts)=40X10Xcos60=200 watts for speaker A. (Cosine60 degree=0.5)
Power(watts)=40X10Xcos0=400 watts for speaker B. (Cosine0 degree=1)

You can see that for speaker A to consume the same power as speaker B, it needs double the current, or 20A. Since its impedance is also 4 ohms, Ohm's law dictates that the only way for speaker A to get more current is for the amp to output a higher voltage. So it will end up not needing double the current because voltage also increases. It will need square root 2 times increase in voltage because the current will then also increase by square root 2 times.

Power (watts)=40XSQRT2X10XSQRT2X0.5=400 watts.

This example shows that we could have one speaker needing 10A from an amplifer to deliver the same watts as another speaker that needs 14.14A or 41.4% more current and also a higher voltage. This is not insignificant and I don't think the example I use is the worst case, it can possibly be worse for certain speakers. That's why it should not be ignored just for the sake of keeping things simple.

Any amp will feel the difference between speakers that have the same specified nominal impedance values unless their dynamic impedance characteristics are also the same or very similar.
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I said relatively speaking! This amp weighs over 48 lbs, has a 540VA P/S transformer in it. I know it is necessarily big due to the Class A's inherently low efficiency. Relative to other 20W into 8 ohms amps this one is high current capable and it doubles down.

As to comparing its SQ to 200W amps, I am not comparing it to 200W class A amps. Most of the time when people around here talk about 200WPC amps they are not talking about Class A. If you are comparing this 20W amp to a more powerful one of the SAME MAKE then I agree with you the higher power one would likely have lower distortion figures though at low volume the resulting difference would also likely be inaudible.

Now this other amp (follow the link below) is only rated 60WX2, but I am going to call it high current capable whether you agree or not. Again, it is "relative". This thing doubles down from 8 ohms to 4, 2, and all the way to 480W into 1 ohm and frequency response from D.C. to 130 kHz.

http://www.onahighernote.com/luxman/?c=4&id=35

And we are way off topic!!
I don't think we are off topic. That is a very nice amp. It uses minimal NFB, and it distortion figures are fantastic. However the power curve is no different from any other amp of similar current capability of whatever class.

Lets take a look. 60 watts into 8 ohms requires a voltage of 22 volts at 2.7 amps. Now if we maintain that voltage into a one ohm load we get 480 watts with a current delivery of 22 amps. So yes, that is high current capability as long as the load resistance is very low. That would be a really unusual speaker that could draw that amount of power from the amp.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Well, let me be more specific this time. You and I both know the impedance of a loudspeaker is dynamic in nature. It is reactive for the most part and can change from inductive to resistive to capacitive (as you cited in your previous post). I appreciate the fact that you want to keep things simple and in your previous math demo you assumed a 4 ohm load is purely resistive (based on the fact that on the power side you use watts as unit). Please be reminded that watts represents real power, VA represents apparent power.

The problem is, let's say speaker A is highly inductive at around 50 to 70 Hz and speaker B is only slighly inductive at the same frequencies and the impedance of both are 4 ohms. Let's further assume speaker A is inductive to the point that current lags voltage by 60 degrees. Cosine 60=0.5 so the current required by speaker A to develop the same power (watts) will have to be higher than that required by speaker B even though both speakers measures 4 ohms in terms of impedance (again with A being highly inductive and B just a touch inductive).

In other words, you can't just keep using the formula Power in watts=V*V/Z (Z being the symbol for impedance) because it is incorrect. It will be correct if you use Power in VA (volt-amps)=V*V/Z, or otherwise you assume the 4 ohm load is purely resistive, then P(watts)=V*V/R is correct.

Conversely, let's consider the following:

Speaker A impedance=4 ohms and current lags voltage by 60 degrees at a particular frequency and speaker B impedance=4 ohms, current and voltage are in phase (0 degree between V & I) i.e. purely resistive within the frequency range we are considering.

Now, if we fix the voltage at 40V.
We all know Ohm's law, I=V/Z so I=40/4=10A for both speakers A and B.

However, power (watts)=VIcosΘ (phase angle between V&I)
So Power (watts)=40X10Xcos60=200 watts for speaker A. (Cosine60 degree=0.5)
Power(watts)=40X10Xcos0=400 watts for speaker B. (Cosine0 degree=1)

You can see that for speaker A to consume the same power as speaker B, it needs double the current, or 20A. Since its impedance is also 4 ohms, Ohm's law dictates that the only way for speaker A to get more current is for the amp to output a higher voltage. So it will end up not needing double the current because voltage also increases. It will need square root 2 times increase in voltage because the current will then also increase by square root 2 times.

Power (watts)=40XSQRT2X10XSQRT2X0.5=400 watts.

This example shows that we could have one speaker needing 10A from an amplifer to deliver the same watts as another speaker that needs 14.14A or 41.4% more current and also a higher voltage. This is not insignificant and I don't think the example I use is the worst case, it can possibly be worse for certain speakers. That's why it should not be ignored just for the sake of keeping things simple.

Any amp will feel the difference between speakers that have the same specified nominal impedance values unless their dynamic impedance characteristics are also the same or very similar.
That is the root of the whole loudspeaker interface problem. Its a moving target, and huge variation from speaker to speaker. So it all ends up that current limited amps are not a good thing, but they also have to provide reasonable voltage to be really useful.

So what is the customer to do. Well the best guide is to find the low point of the speakers impedance curve. Many manufacturers quote the minimum impedance. Then use these formulas to determine how much current a given amp will provide into that impedance. That is the easiest way to find out the point at which his amp is likely to run out of gas supplying that speaker. If the phase angles present a difficult load it still may not be as good as he thinks. So yes, the better the ability of an amp to maintain voltage as impedance drops the better, and the lower the impedance into which it can maintain voltage the better.

When bench testing amps resistive loads are used.

Now all this means that the best approach is to design the amp and speaker drive unit as one integral entity, with electronic crossover. This is going to be especially true of the emerging class D amps.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
The speaker can take >80watts. And it dips all the into 3ohms.
OK, so that was a correct amount; but how much more than 80 watts?
And, that Yam 659 will still supply more than enough power to it, even if it dips to 3 ohms here or there as that is just a dip.
In any event, that speaker with 82dB sensitivity with 2 watts cannot deliver the high spl with only 80 watts of power, or even at 200 watts minus the spl loss for listening distance. 200 watts, 20 dB spl above that 82 dB spl is 102 - perhaps 8 dB? That's how that works.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
OK. Class A 20 watt into 4 ohm. Power is the square of the current X resistance. So 20 X 4 is 80. Square root of 80, 9 amps near enough.

Class AB amp delivering 200 watts into four ohms.

200 X 4 is 800. The square root of 800 is 28.28 amps. Which amp has the greater current delivery?
Not sure where you are getting that 9A or that 28A.
P=I*2xR; 20watts over 4Ohms is 5, but that amp did 40 watts, so 40 watts /4 ohms is 10. Sq root of 10 is about 3.1. While your formula is correct of course, your transform isn't.
P=IxIxR; P/R= IxI
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So what is the customer to do. Well the best guide is to find the low point of the speakers impedance curve. Many manufacturers quote the minimum impedance. Then use these formulas to determine how much current a given amp will provide into that impedance. That is the easiest way to find out the point at which his amp is likely to run out of gas supplying that speaker. If the phase angles present a difficult load it still may not be as good as he thinks.
Impedance vs frequency, and especially phase vs frequency curves seem to be exclusive to reviewers from reputable AV magazines. So you are absolutely right, what is the customer to do? The high current hype has already done enough to confuse people and create misconceptions around forums such as this. Now we (I admit I started it this time) are talking about the effects of the phase angles also.

You made a good point about voltage being important too. Theoretically a speaker that has lots of high impedance peaks could well be more difficult to control than one that has a lower nominal impedance spec but a much flatter curve across the 20 to 20,000 Hz spectrum.

To summarize, may be we can agree on the following:

1. Everything being equal, 4 ohm nominal speakers are more difficult to drive than 8 ohm nominal speakers.

2. Everything may not be equal; the nominal impedance specified for a speaker does not always tell the whole story. To be sure, one also has to refer to manufacturer's (or reliable reviewer's bench tests) impedance/phase angles vs frequency graphs.

3. Speakers with high impedance peaks on its impedance vs freq. graph could also make it more difficult to control.

4. Talking about high current in isolation is not always useful (tempted to say meaningless). Voltage, current, impedance, power dissipation are inter-related. You cannot have current without voltage, regardless of how low the impedance is.

5. If you have enough power, you don't have to worry about any of the above.

6. While more power is always better, at low to moderate (caution: it depends on how one defines “moderate”) volume, speakers can sound just as good with lower power amps, e.g. $4,500 Luxman 20W amp, many low power tube amps, etc. There could be exceptions if we are comparing amps of different classes, i.e. class, A, A/B, B, D etc.

Regarding the phase angle (due to the complex and dynamic nature of speaker's impedance:inductive, capacitive, resistive) thing, I suggest we can just size our amp according to the speaker’s impedance characteristics, listening habits, room acoustics and then may be multiply what we come up with by say 1.5 times give or take. As others posted many times before, get 200 WPC and be done with it. If you must spend all your money on an expensive lower power amp, then you are going to have to find that “easier” to drive/control speakers. I think now I am done on this one. Thank you all!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So what is the customer to do. Well the best guide is to find the low point of the speakers impedance curve. Many manufacturers quote the minimum impedance. Then use these formulas to determine how much current a given amp will provide into that impedance. That is the easiest way to find out the point at which his amp is likely to run out of gas supplying that speaker. If the phase angles present a difficult load it still may not be as good as he thinks.
Impedance vs frequency, and especially phase vs frequency curves seem to be exclusive to reviewers from reputable AV magazines. So you are absolutely right, what is the customer to do? The high current hype has already done enough to confuse people and create misconceptions around forums such as this. Now we (I admit I started it this time) are talking about the effects of the phase angles also.

You made a good point about voltage being important too. Theoretically a speaker that has lots of high impedance peaks could well be more difficult to control than one that has a lower nominal impedance spec but a much flatter curve across the 20 to 20,000 Hz spectrum.

To summarize:

1. Everything being equal, 4 ohm nominal speakers are more difficult to drive than 8 ohm nominal speakers.

2. Everything is not equal; the nominal impedance specified for a speaker does not always tell the whole story. To be sure, one also has to refer to manufacturer's (or reliable reviewer's bench tests) impedance/phase angles vs frequency graphs.

3. Speakers with high impedance peaks on its impedance vs freq. graph also make it more difficult to control.

4. Talking about high current in isolation is not enough (tempted to say meaningless). Voltage, current, impedance, power dissipation are inter-related. You cannot have current without voltage, regardless of how low the impedance it.

5. If you have enough power, you don't have to worry about any of the above.

6. While more power is always better, at low to moderate (caution: it depends on how one defines “moderate”) volume, speakers can sound just as good with lower power amps, e.g. $4,500 Luxman 20W amp, many low power tube amps, etc. There could be exceptions if we are comparing amps of different classes, i.e. class, A, A/B, B, D etc.

Regarding the phase angle thing, I suggest we can just size our amp according to the speaker’s impedance characteristics, listening habits, room acoustics and then may be multiply what we come up with by say 1.5 times or so. As others posted many times before, get 200 WPC and be done with it. Now, if you spend all your money on an expensive lower power amp, then you are going to have to find that “easier” to drive/control speakers. I think now I am done on this one. Thank you all!
 
B

B3Nut

Audioholic
That's one thing I like about The Audio Critic's amp tests, they use the PowerCube system which simulates inductive, resistive, and capacitive loads when testing an amplifier, and at differing impedances. I think its results are more useful than static 1KHz-into-an-8-ohm-resistor tests that seem to rule the day today. I wish more amplifier reviews would include this type of objective measurement, as it gives a better idea of how an amplifier is going to behave into a cantankerous loudspeaker.
 

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