is True DTS-HD that important

[billy p]

Thank God!

I thought I was going to have to spend $1,600 on that Denon BD!

But $600 (street price probably lower) for that DMP-BD50 is awesome!!!

Good news for me as well! I was looking to sell my receiver for the sole purpose of going with a 1.3 hdmi receiver. I would rather spend 600.00 on the panny upgrade, then upgrading my denon 3805.

 

[Soulfreak28]

I just want to thank the person who actually started the thread and for all of you who replied. In a nutshell most of my concerns were answered but I'm still a bit skeptical. I currently own a Denon AVR-4806 with the Toshiba A30 model. I currently have it running via HDMI. My main concern is that for some reason I always hear the movie soundtracks in HDDVD several decibels lower than my standard DVDs. I nowhere near need to raise the master volume level halfway on my receiver, when Im viewing any standard DVD. On the other hand, for example Transformers on HDDVD. Every time I watch this film I indeed need to raise the master level a bit more than halfway. While watching HDDVD's I never get that feeling of the sound coming in naturally. It definately reminds me of the situation when Dolby Digital and DTS came out and we were all still owning Dolby Pro Logic Receivers. Everything just didnt sound right! I remember this clearly! The sound never flowed naturally and their was no other choice but to upgrade the Receiver to match the decoding with the modern DVD Technology. I called Denon on this situation and I believe I spoke to a really reliable rep. He definately came across enthused of Home Theater in general, he in fact owned the same Receiver as I do but the upgraded CI version and knew exactly what I was talking about. He basically said even with the high end receivers we own, is really hard to just get rid of them because they are well made machines that will last a very long time. You indeed need to upgrade the receiver as well to hear the new Audio Formats. Through HDMI you will only experience what all you have been talking about Multi-Channel PCM but not the TruHD Plus, etc. Which definately explains why no matter what audio track you select on the HD DVD Audio Settings from your HDDVD menu your receiver will only output the Multi-Channel Audio Option. Now, he did not mention anything about a DVD Player decoding everything instead, but I currently own a 3rd generation HD DVD Player and I still dont get that sound I hear through standard DVD. Anybody else experiencing the same situation? Im basically on the same boat as most, I dont want to replace my receiver but want to be a part of the technology.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I have read rumors that the BD50 will be about the same price as the current BD30, and the BD30 will come down a bit when the BD50 is released. But as for now it's all speculation.

Spring just cannot come soon enough!

I will buy that BD50 in a heartbeat, most likely at Best Buy since I have $300 BB gift certificates.

Then I will have to go back and rewatch all those DTS-MA movies!

Will the 6+ Mbps DTS-MA blow the DTS 1.5 Mbps away?

It doesn't matter. I don't care!

I just gotta be able to watch my BDs in DTS-MA, TrueHD, and PCM!!!

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

I just want to thank the person who actually started the thread and for all of you who replied. In a nutshell most of my concerns were answered but I'm still a bit skeptical. I currently own a Denon AVR-4806 with the Toshiba A30 model. I currently have it running via HDMI. My main concern is that for some reason I always hear the movie soundtracks in HDDVD several decibels lower than my standard DVDs. I nowhere near need to raise the master volume level halfway on my receiver, when Im viewing any standard DVD. On the other hand, for example Transformers on HDDVD. Every time I watch this film I indeed need to raise the master level a bit more than halfway. While watching HDDVD's I never get that feeling of the sound coming in naturally. It definately reminds me of the situation when Dolby Digital and DTS came out and we were all still owning Dolby Pro Logic Receivers. Everything just didnt sound right! I remember this clearly! The sound never flowed naturally and their was no other choice but to upgrade the Receiver to match the decoding with the modern DVD Technology. I called Denon on this situation and I believe I spoke to a really reliable rep. He definately came across enthused of Home Theater in general, he in fact owned the same Receiver as I do but the upgraded CI version and knew exactly what I was talking about. He basically said even with the high end receivers we own, is really hard to just get rid of them because they are well made machines that will last a very long time. You indeed need to upgrade the receiver as well to hear the new Audio Formats. Through HDMI you will only experience what all you have been talking about Multi-Channel PCM but not the TruHD Plus, etc. Which definately explains why no matter what audio track you select on the HD DVD Audio Settings from your HDDVD menu your receiver will only output the Multi-Channel Audio Option. Now, he did not mention anything about a DVD Player decoding everything instead, but I currently own a 3rd generation HD DVD Player and I still dont get that sound I hear through standard DVD. Anybody else experiencing the same situation? Im basically on the same boat as most, I dont want to replace my receiver but want to be a part of the technology.

Just hook up the 7.1 Analog Input on your Denon 4806!

I would hook the Analog Output from your BD or HD DVD player to the Analog Input of your 4806 and use the TrueHD or PCM of the player itself.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

It depends on which HD-DVD player he has. My HD A2 doesn't have any analog outputs, only HDMI and toslink.

 

[GlocksRock]

Does this mean I have to connect the HDMI cable from my dvd player to the receiver to listen to this lossless audio? It won't send the signal over coaxial or toslink cable? Also, this works with 5.1 setup too? Thanks.

Yes, HDMI is the only way to get multichannel PCM, TrueHD, Dolby Digital +, and DTS-HD MA. Optical digital, and digital coaxial don't have enough bandwidth to carry anything greater than standard dts which is 1.5 mbps. Yes, it works with 5.1 and up.

 

[obscbyclouds]

Does this mean I have to connect the HDMI cable from my dvd player to the receiver to listen to this lossless audio? It won't send the signal over coaxial or toslink cable? Also, this works with 5.1 setup too? Thanks.

There's only two ways to get the New Lossless Audio Codec's:

1. DVD Player with HDMI cable to Reciever.
2. DVD Player (with internal decoder) through 5.1 or 7.1 multichannel analog outputs to Reciever's multichannel inputs.


S/PDIF (Optical and Dig. Coax) cannot carry more than 2.0 channels of loseless audio, aka PCM.

 

[Hi Ho]

Are all of these formats really needed? Why not just have ONE lossless format? I'll bet the only differences heard between the lossless formats is due to the fact that they are mixed and mastered separately, probably by different people. If there was just one format all of the work could be focused on it and we'd have one excellent sounding lossless mix.

I was not aware of the turmoil surrounding audio formats on Blu-Ray. Why would the studios use soundtracks that can't be decoded by any current player (or only a couple high priced ones)? They should have had this figured out before they ever released a player! They should have had profile 2.0 ready before they thought about releasing anything! HD-DVD had a finalized spec and all of the players can handle at least one of the lossless audio tracks.

I will have to jump on the Blu-Ray bandwagon some time this year (unless some amazing turn of events occurs... unlikely) and I guess it will be the Panasonic BD-50 since it sounds like it will be the first reasonably priced player to actually incorporate all Blu-Ray has to offer.

 

[GlocksRock]

Are all of these formats really needed? Why not just have ONE lossless format? I'll bet the only differences heard between the lossless formats is due to the fact that they are mixed and mastered separately, probably by different people. If there was just one format all of the work could be focused on it and we'd have one excellent sounding lossless mix.

No, that would make too much sense, and put too many people out of a job. But it sure would be nice.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Yeah, 1.5 Mbps DTS vs 640 kbps DD make sense.

But PCM vs TrueHD vs DTS-MA makes absolutely NO sense.

PCM is the clear winner, not because it sounds better than DTS-MA or TrueHD, but because it requires absolutely NO decoding whatsoever.

But without TrueHD and DTS-MA, they couldn't give you enough reasons to buy new receivers. Practically everyone would get PCM for FREE.

 

[GlocksRock]

The only good reason I can see for having DTS-HD MA or TrueHD over PCM is that it's still lossless, and that would give more room for better video quality. But with 50 gigabyte blu ray discs, I don't think space is too much of an issue right now.

 

[Bluesmoke]

But without TrueHD and DTS-MA, they couldn't give you enough reasons to buy new receivers. Practically everyone would get PCM for FREE.

PCM is not marketable. People don't know what it means. My cousin with his 40gb pS3 has been watching my Blu-rays in Dolby or DTS until I told him to choose the pCM track. All discs default to the DD track unfortunately.

True HD and Master Audio tells the viewer exactly what they're hearing.

It also convinces people to upgrade their audio. Maybe someone with just a tv might go to a store and purchase a $300 HTIB and then a year later spend $2000 on a better setup. Remember, a lot of us started with crappy setups.

 

[Davidt1]

Yes, HDMI is the only way to get multichannel PCM, TrueHD, Dolby Digital +, and DTS-HD MA. Optical digital, and digital coaxial don't have enough bandwidth to carry anything greater than standard dts which is 1.5 mbps. Yes, it works with 5.1 and up.

So I need two HDMI cables for this lossless audio thing -- one from dvd player to receiver and one from receiver to tv. Is it possible that a receiver can mess up the video signal and makes it worse than if it was connected directly from the dvd player to the tv? Thanks.

 

[avaserfi]

So I need two HDMI cables for this lossless audio thing -- one from dvd player to receiver and one from receiver to tv. Is it possible that a receiver can mess up the video signal and makes it worse than if it was connected directly from the dvd player to the tv? Thanks.

Your set up is right DVD player to receiver then receiver to TV. As long as your receiver is working properly there will be no signal degradation. If for some reason something isn't working right there is that possibility, but this is unlikely.

 

[GlocksRock]

So I need two HDMI cables for this lossless audio thing -- one from dvd player to receiver and one from receiver to tv. Is it possible that a receiver can mess up the video signal and makes it worse than if it was connected directly from the dvd player to the tv? Thanks.

Yes, just get two HDMI cables and connect as you said above. HDMI should just pass straight through the receiver without being touched, so no signal degradation should happen. If you want quality HDMI cables for cheap, go to www.monoprice.com everyone here will agree that they are the best you can buy anywhere for the money.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

So I need two HDMI cables for this lossless audio thing -- one from dvd player to receiver and one from receiver to tv. Is it possible that a receiver can mess up the video signal and makes it worse than if it was connected directly from the dvd player to the tv? Thanks.

The problem is that the newer flat panels can save video settings based on source input. If you run all your sources to your receiver and let the receiver do the switching, your flat panel will need to stay on one source. SD cable sources benefit from a different setting than fast action sports in HD, as do BD or HD DVD discs.

If you've found the holy grail of settings for all sources, this isn't an issue. If you're into video quality as much as I am, then you'll set each source differently and run your HDMI cables directly to the tv. The problem is this affects lossless audio output on all but one component (I run 6 analog rca's to my receiver for direct PCM).

Nothing is easy with this hobby.

 

[rmk]

A chain is only as strong as its weakest link. This holds for audio and video. Once you have heard the new HD lossless audio formats on a capable system, or a 1080P source displayed on a >100" screen, you will have a better understanding of why folks are chasing this so hard.

 

[Nikonowski]

PCM vs. Bitsream option - is there a difference when playing DTS-HD Master Audio disc

Yeah, 1.5 Mbps DTS vs 640 kbps DD make sense.

But PCM vs TrueHD vs DTS-MA makes absolutely NO sense.

PCM is the clear winner, not because it sounds better than DTS-MA or TrueHD, but because it requires absolutely NO decoding whatsoever.

But without TrueHD and DTS-MA, they couldn't give you enough reasons to buy new receivers. Practically everyone would get PCM for FREE.

Hi AcuDefTechGuy - I hear that you quite an expert on HD codecs and PCM in general, so I hope that can help me with some of this.

Over last few weeks I recieved valuable feedback on AVS forums, however, I am not sure I am better off then I was before - maybe a bit more confused

Here is how the story goes:

Myself and my brother-in-law had a "little" debate about sound quality when playing DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 Blu Ray disc on a player that does not decode DTS-HD MA internally (Sony S1) via PCM option vs. playing teh same disc on a player (Samsung 1400) that sends DTS-HD MA bitstream to compatible reciever. .So we decided to test it out ourselves yesterday and we did

Background:

I have Samsung 1400 (with 1.7FW) so I can bitstream DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 to my reciever (Denon AVR-988)


He has Sony BDP-S1 BD player and he cannot decode nor bitsream DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1, however, he can convert to PCM via menu on his Sony BDP-S1 BD player .


So what we did next, we played the same BD disc in both players and output via HDMI to Denon reciever.

We could not tell the difference in sound quality from player to player! The sound was excellent from both, even though I was getting DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 light up on the Denon reciever when playing via Samsung 1400 and he was getting Multi Channel PCM display when playing from his Sony BDP-S1 BD player. The only piece of mind was that I was trully outputing DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 because Denon reciever showed us so. The quality was exceptional (and we think identical) from both.

So what gives here, according to most (if not all) of feedback recieved on AVS forum, Sony BDP-S1 BD player should be only outputting lossy DTS core from DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 discs but I can assure you, the quality was the same from both of our players !!!??? Should it be ? I am at a loss what's happening here. At the beginning, I was thinking that what my brother-in-law tells me , it is just his perception , but I have to be honest here: to me as well, the quality was identical ! So I guess, you do not need to have player that can bitstream DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 after all (!) as you can obtain the same quality with PCM option! I would love to know why this is happening and maybe this is an excpected behaviour - I just always thought that the DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 sound should be superior - especially over lossy DTS core ! Please remember that Sony BDP-S1 BD player does not decode DTS-HD internally and only can extract DTS core via bitstream or PCM option.

Couple other important items that have come up during our text:

Sony BDP-S1 BD player cannot output 7.1 surround sound when playing DTS-HD Master Audio 7.1 disc , even after converting to PCM - so that's a one shortcoming.

Also, the strangest thing is those menu sounds. They are on ( i.e. menus make sounds when navigating between different options: Scene selection, play etc...) when playing via PCM but not on (not sounds at all) when navigating when using Bitstream option. Some of you suggested that you can turn these menu sounds on or off via disc menu selection. Well, we looked and looked and no! There is no option to turn them on anywhere. We used "The day after tomorrow" disc. The funny thing is that the same behaviour with the menu sounds as I described above happened with both BD players: Sony BDP-S1 BD player and Samsung 1400. Can someone explain taht one to me - I am really at loss here. What gives ?

To summarize though, quality was amazing (identical to us) with both players. We did play like certain scenes from The day after tomorrow" disc 20 times in a row on each player.

Please help restore our sanity

Thanks,
Nikonowski

 

[Nikonowski]

The sharp doesn't decode DTS HD MA. DTS HD only. There are very few Lionsgate movies with DTS HD. All Fox titles have HD MA. However, the 1.5mbps DTS core track from the Master track is not bad at all.

But if the soundtrack is DTS-HD MA 7.1 you cannot get 7.1 from that only 5.1