A new PB13-Ultra and an old PB12 Plus/2 compared

[AdrianMills]

Okay, as you may have seen in another thread I've had my Ultra 13 sitting in a box for most of the week but today was time for the big unveiling.

First my setup; a Denon 4306, and an SMS-1 with the latest and greatest 2.1.3 firmware. All my speakers are set to small with an 80hz crossover. I’ve had the LFE channel set to -6dB since Ilkka found the problem with the SMS-1 input clipping. Main receiver volume is at -20 for this exercise.

Comparisons are done with the EQ defeated on SMS-1 (preset 6). You can see the settings here;

So, first I wanted some sort baseline with my current PB12 plus/2 (with 12.2 drivers) which you can see here;

The plus/2 is in 20Hz tune, gain is set to ~25% and phase is about 120 - no PEQ is set.

After I grabbed these images I slid the plus/2 into my office (relatively easy to do with that base plate).

However, moving the Ultra13 from here;

was an entirely different story! One of the problems is gripping the thing - without a baseplate like the old down firing subs it's not so easy! Also, it has feet attached so you can't just put it on the floor and slide it. Not a chance.

A couple of tips for anyone that wants to keep the box intact (getting the sub out would be easier if you just cut the box down the side). Open the top, and remove the top piece of foam and the front grill that's in there. Lay an old blanket or rug on the floor, and then tip the box over so that the sub is side down - driver/amp facing to the sides. Then slide the sub out of the box onto the blanket. From here you can slide it around easily enough.

[Continued in next post]

 

[AdrianMills]

It's at this point that the unpacking images cease due to the distraction of sweat and extreme exertion on the part of moi.

The sub has to be put on its feet. Well, I can attest that unless you take that ##¤%&!"#! cloth bag off of it, then it will never happen! Struggle as much as you want but you cannot get your hands under this thing unless you have steel tipped fingers; 155lbs is freaking heavy!

Take off the bag (just be careful you don’t mark it when you’re putting it into place) and things are better; it's then relatively easy to grip the sides to tip the sub up onto its feet - make sure it's close to being in place before you do this though as the feet will stop it from sliding.

Of course, it wouldn't hurt to have help either!

I first tried the Ultra13 in native 20Hz tune; I played with the phase a little and 180 seemed to give the best results. I put the gain at about the 30% mark and turned off room size correction.

I then tried the large, medium and small room settings in turn; strangely (or maybe not), there wasn't a huge difference.

 

[AdrianMills]

Now I blocked a port and set the subsonic filter to 15Hz; with no room size correction it looked liked this;

Which I think you'll agree looks better than the 20hz tune.

Then I tried the large, medium and small room size corrections in turn but again, not a lot of difference and what differences there were, weren't very good ones!

I didn't try the 10Hz tune.

I've decided to stick with the 15Hz tune with no room correction for now and I did a quick EQ with the SMS.

I’ve haven’t had a lot of time to do much serious listening but my initial impressions with music is that the sub seems to have a more textured sound than the plus/2. There were sounds in parts of Floyd’s “Wish You Were Here” that I can’t recall ever hearing before. I also listened to the Dire Straits SACD, “Brothers in Arms” and the Held Lampi Project's, “Digital Dreaming” and both sounded superb, but hey, they always did.

I haven't listened to any movies yet; maybe I’ll try out WOTW and Pulse tomorrow and give an update.

First impressions are positive with a caveat; compared to the plus/2 the Ultra13 definitely seems to give more definition to music but I've not heard an enormous "night and day" difference. If you already have a plus/2 or similarly classed sub I'm not sure I'd recommend it as being a huge upgrade particularly if you don’t have money to burn.

 

[croseiv]

Thanks for the thorough documentation of the set-up. It 's interesting to me that one woofer is comparable to two here. Also, I read that the 13 Ultra tends to dig deeper than the other subs (its primary strength). Is that your impression? I hope to have a rosenut PB13- Ultra in hand soon. It's an upgrade from my PSW-650. I'm thinking is going to be a huge improvement for me.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Wow, two killer subs in one house. What are you going to do with the Plus/2? I'm also interested to see how that extremely deep bass that the Plus/2 produces so effortlessly compares to the PB13. I've yet to hear the PB13. Judging by the driver and box, it's got to have some serious slam/punch. I can't even imagine a PB13/Ultra/2. It would have to be a monster box to handle the pressure the drivers produce. Thanks for the post/pics. Very nice. That sure is a purrrty black sub.

 

[AdrianMills]

Thanks for the thorough documentation of the set-up. It 's interesting to me that one woofer is comparable to two here. Also, I read that the 13 Ultra tends to dig deeper than the other subs (its primary strength). Is that your impression? I hope to have a rosenut PB13- Ultra in hand soon. It's an upgrade from my PSW-650. I'm thinking is going to be a huge improvement for me.

It's one woofer yes, but air displacement is similar due to its increased size and travel. Still, I was a little surprised that I had to increase the gain on the sub, compared to the plus/2 to get even close to the same output (I assumed, probably incorrectly I guess, that the gain knobs were going to be calibrated identically on both subs - hey, it goes to 11 right? ). The gain on the ultra is now 30% (it was 25% on the plus/2) and I also increased the volume on the SMS-1 to 18 (as opposed to 14 for the plus/2).

You can see on the graphs that in 15Hz mode the ultra does that easily. The plus/2 in 20hz drops off pretty quickly and I'd have to block another port to get it into 16hz tune and that can cause issues with port chuffing at loud volumes. So yes, the Ultra digs deeper, but how obvious that is in real world listening is another thing entirely; I need to put on some deep stuff today and check it out.

As I said though, I think for those that are only interested in HT and are on a budget it would be difficult to justify the price difference between these two. That point is maybe moot though as the plus/2 is now out of production so there's no real choice in the matter.

I guess that for you it will be a larger improvement than it was for me.

FWIW, remember, my comments are based on my setup/room/ears/perspective, everyone else’s mileage may vary considerably.

 

[AdrianMills]

Wow, two killer subs in one house. What are you going to do with the Plus/2? I'm also interested to see how that extremely deep bass that the Plus/2 produces so effortlessly compares to the PB13. I've yet to hear the PB13. Judging by the driver and box, it's got to have some serious slam/punch. I can't even imagine a PB13/Ultra/2. It would have to be a monster box to handle the pressure the drivers produce. Thanks for the post/pics. Very nice. That sure is a purrrty black sub.

I was going to sell the plus/2 until I started thinking that I'd like a bigger screen. That got me thinking that maybe I should build a projector based HT upstairs in a bonus room I have so I've decided to keep the plus/2 for that install.

The gloss black is a nice finish. I'm still getting used to it after having the cherry plus/2 in the corner. I regret a little that I didn't go the rosenut route - the black sub looks like a sub, the wood finishes look more like pieces of furniture.

 

[charcoal grey]

Have you had any more listening time yet? I also ordered the PB13, but it is not due to ship out untill next month.

 

[AdrianMills]

Have you had any more listening time yet? I also ordered the PB13, but it is not due to ship out untill next month.

Dude, it's 9:30 on Sunday morning here - the neighbours will string me up if I put on Pulse at this time.

You've made a good choice. Remember my comments on the Ultra13 are relative to a very good sub that was tweaked and EQed flat. Without EQ, I'd say they would be more easily discernable. And hey, I was knackered yesterday after moving a couple of ton of snow and struggling with this inert lump so maybe today I'll be able to appreciate it more.

I'll post later with more impressions.

 

[AdrianMills]

Due to a glitch on my side this post was lost the first time around so hopefully this 2nd time around I'll be luckier - and more concise (I really hate having to type things twice!)

A few negatives unrelated to sound quality.

1) The ultra13 requires a much higher input level than the plus/2 for the auto on switch to work.

2) The power switch is too low at the back; if you have your sub positioned like I do in a corner it can be difficult to reach and it'll require an external power block if you like to save on power consumption by switching it off in the nights or when you're out of the house.

3) One of the LFE input connectors was loose when my sub arrived. I fixed it by gently screwing the thing in. It doesn't exactly engender confidence in the QC.

That's the only negatives I can think of...

Now to music; I'm currently listening to one of my favourite CD's, the Bowers and Wilkin's freebee compilation from Real World Records.

Man, did I imply that there wasn't much in it yesterday when it came to music? Really, the difference is huge; mid and upper bass are just phenomenal. Much more impact from those kick drums, tracks such as 'Old Blind Barnabus' from the Blind Boys of Alabama and Peter Gabriel's 'Quiet Steam' seem so much more full and tactile. Yeah, I know, and I'm trying not to sound too much like a subjectivist here but at least I haven't used the word "dancable" yet. lol.

Next, AIX records excellent sampler; the ultra13 reproduces the bass notes of Lisbeth Scott’s grand piano effortlessly with no sign of overhang from the ports. And then the cool Lowlands by Brand New Opry. Wow. Really. Excellent! This is how bass is supposed to sound.

I was going to put on a few movies but that’s going to have to wait a little as this has got me in a music listening mood. I’ll report on the movie performance a bit later in the day.

 

[AdrianMills]

I'm probably one of the few that ever bought the soundtrack CD of Lemony Snicket's A Series of Unfortunate Events - mainly for just one track called Drive Away. It has prodigious amounts of bass; the plus/2 never really reproduced the bass in a truly satisfying way though, it just sounded too, um, indistinct, blurred even. The ultra has no such issues and this track sounds so much better.

Have you guys ever heard of the ethnic group Ladysmith Black Mambazo? Well, if you don’t recognize their name you’ve heard their music no doubt – they sing on Paul Simon’s “Diamonds on the Soles of her Shoes”. I heard these guys live some years ago at the Hay festival in Wales; they have the most astoundingly deep voices and besides that live event this is the best I’ve heard them.

I’m gushing I know but I can’t say enough good things about this sub when it comes to music reproduction. It’s seriously outstanding.

 

[GlocksRock]

Thank you for doing this review, I've really been wondering about the differences between the two. I'm anxious to hear your thoughts on movie performace, and I'm willing to bet it will be just as glowing as your music review.

 

[Bluesmoke]

Can you take a few more shots with the grill on? It's not every day you see pics of the pB13 in piano. Nice review.

 

[AdrianMills]

Can you take a few more shots with the grill on? It's not every day you see pics of the pB13 in piano. Nice review.

Ok, just for you. Just click on the images to get the full size ones.







It's quite amazing how much smaller it looks compared to the plus/2 even if the physical volume is similar.

 

[AdrianMills]

Thank you for doing this review, I've really been wondering about the differences between the two. I'm anxious to hear your thoughts on movie performace, and I'm willing to bet it will be just as glowing as your music review.

Okay, so, movies!

I lined up three bass heavy scenes, The Incredibles, the first robot fight scene, WOTW, machines emerging and Pulse, server room.

Oh wow. This sub has some serious cajones.

I’ve heard some people say that they prefer the sound of the plus/2 for movies and I can understand why. The plus/2 has a brute force feel to it, lots of moving air, vibrations and “noise”. But the ultra13 seems a lot cleaner; you feel like you’re actually listening to the movie and not the sub. As with music, the sound is also a good deal more defined and things actually seem to sound like they should now not just a flat “thud”.

Did it dig deeper? Hm, yes, it did but that’s really no surprise and it’s pretty obvious from the SMS-1 graphs earlier. Did it make a difference? Yes, it did, and although I wouldn’t class it as a huge difference it certainly added to the grin factor especially during Pulse (and caused some pictures to vibrate that haven’t done that before).

What can I say? Buy it.

But be prepared for a different class of sound than that produced by a Plus/2 or equivalent – it’s entirely possible that you’d prefer the distortion of a less accurate sub.

Edited to add this additional bit
I'd like to try and explain my rave remarks today compared to my less than overwhelming ones yesterday; first, after pushing a lot of snow (yes, this is Scandinavia dudes), heaving around heavy subs and then trying to capture it all on film I guess I was less than receptive. I think my impressions today after a nights sleep and when I was relaxed are far more representative. It just goes to show that mood really can make a large difference.
Also, another caveat; remember, no side by side comparisons were done here (I just don't have the space for both to sit next to each other or even the patience to do that even if I did have the space!) so again, take that into consideration.

 

[Warpdrv]

Thanks Adrian for that Awesome and detailed review with pics of both the SMS and your beautiful Ultra13, they really give one a good picture of how clean that Ultra13 is without any EQ whatsoever... I picked up a second Plus/2 to add to my room for a great price and that should hold me over for a while until my TC-2K builds are finished. I see that you had said your Plus/2 had the old 12.2 drivers as opposed to the newer reworked 12.3 drivers. I would imagine that the gap between the new 12.3 drivers and the new Ultra 13 would be a bit smaller, but the capabilities of that 60lb ultra driver obviously blows away the less capable Plus drivers in stability, control, note overhang and linearity. It offers the accuracy of a sealed sub with the power and subsonic abilities of a ported sub. Hats off to SVS for this amazing accomplishment.

As you stated, the differences between the two, I can tell where my Plus/2's start to lose a bit of control or cohesion at higher volumes. There is a small amount of note overhang or ringing if you will...No one that comes to my house is aware of this, like I am, I apparently just have a more discerning ear and a need for tight, cohesive, clean bass. If they are not driven ultra hard, the Plus/2's make for some incredible subs... I really do love them and for the money, they really just pound the snot out of my house. People are absolutely blown away by them. I have them both tuned to 16hz and together they can still maintain extremely well in my gynournous room, and they are truly fantastic looking in my house, like fine furniture, something very few companies offer to the market. I would still like to get one or even a pair of the Ultra's for myself, but obviously I have chosen a different path.

I agree with you that some people prefer a sloppier, less controlled sub, as it provides a small linguring of the bass note. Its clear why many people prefer sealed subs, for the tighter, cleaner, distortion free bass.
I am lucky enough to have the SB-12Plus to run up against the ported PB12-plus in my room and will report back on it.

 

[Warpdrv]

Thanks for the thorough documentation of the set-up. It 's interesting to me that one woofer is comparable to two here. Also, I read that the 13 Ultra tends to dig deeper than the other subs (its primary strength). Is that your impression? I hope to have a rosenut PB13- Ultra in hand soon. It's an upgrade from my PSW-650. I'm thinking is going to be a huge improvement for me.

croseiv
Thought I would add, that a dual driver in a cabinet cannot achieve as low a tune as a single driver in the same box. The box size is very close between the Plus/2 and the Ultra. The Plus/2's lowest tunable setting is 16hz where the single driver model Plus is only a touch smaller in cabinet size and can attain a lower tuning point of 12hz with more internal box space.

The addition of a second driver in a cabinet only provides more headroom, but on the other hand it takes away the ability to achieve a lower tune..

I think SVS's plan to revert back to a single larger driver in a large enclosure provides the flexibility of lower tuning as well as the headroom one would need was a very good idea. Larger ported cabinets reach lower tuning points easier. Now if they wer to make a dual driver Ultra13 box they would have to almost double the box size to maintain the ability to tune down to 10hz like the single driver unit, but it would give more headroom....

 

[charcoal grey]

Kind of an off topic question, but does the SMS-1 support multiple subs?

 

[AdrianMills]

Kind of an off topic question, but does the SMS-1 support multiple subs?

Yes, it has three sub outs but just a single EQ curve is applied to each sub (and 6 seperate curves that you can define).

I've been considering getting a Behringer and using REW; they are lot more flexible and accurate than the SMS-1 by all accounts but you sacrifice ease of use.

 

[AdrianMills]

Warpdrv,

thanks, you said more in that one eloquent post than I did with all my waffle and pics.

I'm starting to wonder how a stacked pair of gloss black ultras will look.