12" Infinity Kappa VQ Build Plans

[TLS Guy]

You're my hero, that subwoofer is sexalicious.

TLS Guy, you win the award for longest signature know to forum kind.

SheepStar

Well I'm an old geyser and have accumulated good gear over more than 50 years and kept it maintained. There was not room in the signature for all of it! It's part museum really, but I can play just about anything that was any good from the last fifty years. It really does surprise visitors as to how good the performance of it is against modern gear. You can hear over fifty years of technology here. I think it pays to buy good gear, it lasts and gives pleasure for years. This modern rush to the bottom in basic standards does rather leave one wondering where it will end up.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2424008#127077317

 

[TLS Guy]

Good speakers never are easy to build. It takes time and patience and lots of both. The rewards are huge. It makes a lot of sense to me to build two subs. I don't think you will need chair vibrators!

 

[avaserfi]

Good speakers never are easy to build. It takes time and patience and lots of both. The rewards are huge. It makes a lot of sense to me to build two subs. I don't think you will need chair vibrators!

There was no question that two need be built as they are the lower module of a full range speaker I am designing.

In reality this sub build was a test of my ability to be able to build something fairly complicated as the upper speaker portion will be far more complicated than this build.

 

[TLS Guy]

There was no question that two need be built as they are the lower module of a full range speaker I am designing.

In reality this sub build was a test of my ability to be able to build something fairly complicated as the upper speaker portion will be far more complicated than this build.

You have proved your point! You are a speaker builder. A good integrated system is the way to superlative results. I would advise you use at least fourth order slopes on your sub/bass mid crossovers. Otherwise you will excite the resonance of your duct ports. Anunaki and I have had that discussion. He confirmed he uses fourth order slopes. Are you considering digital crossovers for the full range speakers.

These speakers took almost three months to build. A lot longer to plan and design.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2424278#127083295

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2424008#127077317

You have the foundation to build a speaker system better than any that can be bought. And you can tweak your crossovers without voiding the warranty!

 

[avaserfi]

You have proved your point! You are a speaker builder. A good integrated system is the way to superlative results. I would advise you use at least fourth order slopes on your sub/bass mid crossovers. Otherwise you will excite the resonance of your duct ports. Anunaki and I have had that discussion. He confirmed he uses fourth order slopes. Are you considering digital crossovers for the full range speakers.

These speakers took almost three months to build. A lot longer to plan and design.

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2424278#127083295

http://mdcarter.smugmug.com/gallery/2424008#127077317

You have the foundation to build a speaker system better than any that can be bought. And you can tweak your crossovers without voiding the warranty!

The plan was already to use a 4th order crossover especially because the first port resonance is about 120Hz.

As far as the speaker portion goes a DCX2496 will also be used as I have absolutely no intention of using a passive crossover. In the end it will be a four way with extremely high linear dispersion and non-resonant mono/virtual omni-polar system. A switching system will be used to allow for optimal configuration depending on the room the speakers are placed in.

 

[WmAx]

You have proved your point! You are a speaker builder. A good integrated system is the way to superlative results. I would advise you use at least fourth order slopes on your sub/bass mid crossovers. Otherwise you will excite the resonance of your duct ports. Anunaki and I have had that discussion. He confirmed he uses fourth order slopes. Are you considering digital crossovers for the full range speakers.

I am directly consulting and helping Andrew with every step of this design, including measurement/analysis of driver and crossover design assistance using mock up baffles at my location. You can be assured, that no resonance of any kind will be present in this system. When completed, this system will be a world-class speaker system, with almost nothing being able to compare(neither in the DIY or retail world), considering both off axis full band sound behaviour, linearity and resonances(of every kind).

-Chris

 

[annunaki]

Chris,

How would you compare an essentially resonance free design such as the Nautilus from B&W to the design Andrew is building? B&W is using custom made drivers and such for their design. Should they not be able to get superior performance in that instance?

It uses full active crossover networks as well. They are within +/-1db from 40hz-20khz on axis, and only -6db down at 10hz and 25khz. That is pretty impressive. Not to mention these were first released in the late 90's.

Realistically the only potential drawback to the design Andrew is using is the lack of custom tailored drivers to the task at hand. I know that you both have meticulously hand picked the drivers though.

In any case you have to give the trophy to you and Andrew here simply because you are getting similar resonance free performance at a fraction of the the $40K+ price tag of the B&W's. Bravo to both of you.

 

[WmAx]

Chris,

How would you compare an essentially resonance free design such as the Nautilus from B&W to the design Andrew is building? B&W is using custom made drivers and such for their design. Should they not be able to get superior performance in that instance?

It uses full active crossover networks as well. They are within +/-1db from 40hz-20khz on axis, and only -6db down at 10hz and 25khz. That is pretty impressive. Not to mention these were first released in the late 90's.

Yes, this state of the art $40k Nautilus has the (1) resonance free design (2) extreme linearity (3) High dynamic range. But it lacks the critical no. (4) even and linear off axis response, even at 180 degrees. Without no. 4, it becomes just another monopole, which will have a substantially lower level realism in high quality stereo spacious recordings such as classical music, as well as a lack of natural timbre realism of individual recorded voices and instruments.

The drivers I will be using in the final system, will have perfect integration, and +/- 0.5dB is possible, and with textbook perfect CSD, and no audible cabinet resonance. This system will also be dual mode; it can be used as a monopole or virtual omnipole.

-Chris

 

[TLS Guy]

I am directly consulting and helping Andrew with every step of this design, including measurement/analysis of driver and crossover design assistance using mock up baffles at my location. You can be assured, that no resonance of any kind will be present in this system. When completed, this system will be a world-class speaker system, with almost nothing being able to compare(neither in the DIY or retail world), considering both off axis full band sound behaviour, linearity and resonances(of every kind).

-Chris

That's good. I'm going to watch this project with extreme interest. It will be a real treat to get away from these tiresome which would be best posts.

If I were planning mine now I would be doing the same with electronic digital crossovers, however my plans started about four years ago now. I have built it though, so I could change very easily. That is why I will watch this with great interest. Please keep us updated. Meanwhile my combination of analog active and passive crossovers, is producing excellent fidelity, so I'm in no rush. I have lived with this rig for almost two years now, and done a couple of fine tuning changes.

I did a post yesterday, explaining that this is where even the lower budget offerings are headed eventually. Folks had better be prepared to pull their speaker cable and swap it for something else.

 

[TLS Guy]

Chris,

How would you compare an essentially resonance free design such as the Nautilus from B&W to the design Andrew is building? B&W is using custom made drivers and such for their design. Should they not be able to get superior performance in that instance?

It uses full active crossover networks as well. They are within +/-1db from 40hz-20khz on axis, and only -6db down at 10hz and 25khz. That is pretty impressive. Not to mention these were first released in the late 90's.

Realistically the only potential drawback to the design Andrew is using is the lack of custom tailored drivers to the task at hand. I know that you both have meticulously hand picked the drivers though.

In any case you have to give the trophy to you and Andrew here simply because you are getting similar resonance free performance at a fraction of the the $40K+ price tag of the B&W's. Bravo to both of you.

Chris seems to know what he's about. The big point is though, if they don't like it they are not out 40K! They can further develop it or go right back to the drawing board for a fraction of the cost of trading high end speakers. I'm optimistic they will get to their goal and have one of the best speaker systems on the planet.

Gilbert Briggs used to make that point back in the fifties, when so much to inspire and nurture the DIY builders. He was founder, owner and MOD of Wharfedale! He was one of the nicest individuals I ever met. We could do with more of his type in the industry now.

 

[cornelius]

Yes, this state of the art $40k Nautilus has the (1) resonance free design (2) extreme linearity (3) High dynamic range. But it lacks the critical no. (4) even and linear off axis response, even at 180 degrees. Without no. 4, it becomes just another monopole, which will have a substantially lower level realism in high quality stereo spacious recordings such as classical music, as well as a lack of natural timbre realism of individual recorded voices and instruments.

The drivers I will be using in the final system, will have perfect integration, and +/- 0.5dB is possible, and with textbook perfect CSD, and no audible cabinet resonance. This system will also be dual mode; it can be used as a monopole or virtual omnipole.

-Chris

IMO, the biggest miss is failing step response. That is why so many speakers lack realism...

 

[TLS Guy]

IMO, the biggest miss is failing step response. That is why so many speakers lack realism...

Chris, this is what Ted Jordan says about that.

The wide random sound spread favored by convention cannot support stable stereophonic imagery. JORDAN drivers have a slightly directional and gently rising high frequency response and should be placed with their axes crossing well in front of the listener. This approach results in a substantial improvement in image stability and reaches its full potential in our 'Linear Array' designs. Again, despite convention, there is strong argument in favor of placing the loudspeakers as close to the wall as possible. This reduces the time lag between the direct sound and the reflection from the 'virtual images' and substantially improves coherence and spatiality. (The ideal, but usually impractical, solution, is to mount the drivers in the wall where there would be no virtual image).

Now Ted is interesting. He is brilliant mathematician. He has been challenging conventional wisdom for nigh on 60 years now. I'm certain he is not right about everything, but he has been right about a lot. One thing I'm convinced he is right about, is that this obsession for rigid cones, except for subs, is misguided. His arguments about cone structure and profile are compelling. Its high time people listened to him on this. He used his math and research to produce what I consider the world's first tonally accurate moving coil driver. It was the Jordan Watts module.

I think you would find his work and views provocative. At least you would know the views from the other side.

By the way I have been down the wide dispersion road and abandoned it. I think Ted is correct about limits on dispersion. That is just my listening impressions.

This is yet another reason I will follow you wonderful endeavors with great interest.

 

[avaserfi]

The wide random sound spread favored by convention cannot support stable stereophonic imagery.

Following perceptual research it has been shown through stereophonic listening tests that a slightly delayed, but similar in magnitude, reflection will produce greater perceived realism from a loudspeaker as well as increased enjoyment. Also, in a properly treated room [vital to high fidelity- physics cannot be defied after all] this is a far from random sound spread. This is why drivers with extremely linear on and off axis response are required for the build.

JORDAN drivers have a slightly directional and gently rising high frequency response and should be placed with their axes crossing well in front of the listener.

I wonder what the definition image stability is in this case. It is my understanding that having a slightly raised treble response will cause a perceived "tighter" (yet smaller) image response than one that is perfectly neutral with the opposite one will get more "open" imaging in a wider "sweet spot." This more stable imaging mentioned could simply be a product of the gradual rise of the higher frequencies.

Edit: I think you will find it very hard to find any part of this started/planned build that doesn't have its roots in some sort of credible research/science .

 

[TLS Guy]

Following perceptual research it has been shown through stereophonic listening tests that a slightly delayed, but similar in magnitude, reflection will produce greater perceived realism from a loudspeaker as well as increased enjoyment. Also, in a properly treated room [vital to high fidelity- physics cannot be defied after all] this is a far from random sound spread. This is why drivers with extremely linear on and off axis response are required for the build.



I wonder what the definition image stability is in this case. It is my understanding that having a slightly raised treble response will cause a perceived "tighter" (yet smaller) image response than one that is perfectly neutral with the opposite one will get more "open" imaging in a wider "sweet spot." This more stable imaging mentioned could simply be a product of the gradual rise of the higher frequencies.

Edit: I think you will find it very hard to find any part of this started/planned build that doesn't have its roots in some sort of credible research/science .

Well I said Ted was not right about everything. However Ted has been a dedicated scientist for years. He was chief engineer for Goodman's loudspeakers before producing his astonishing module.

Seriously though your project sounds very interesting. I still will follow with extreme interest.

 

[WmAx]

Chris, this is what Ted Jordan says about that.

Ted's opinion is not fully supported by the credible perceptual research findings. Ian Paisley's research(NRC/Mirage researcher) found, after thousands of blind trials performed upon thousands of test subjects, that the wider and smoother the dispersion, the more highly preferred the speakers were in controlled circumstances. Toole's research (NRC/Harman researcher) also found that wider/smoother dispersion, and properly delayed reflections resulted in this trend in blinded studies.

My own research, using as controlled conditions as feasibly possible for me to perform, resulted in identical findings.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

IMO, the biggest miss is failing step response. That is why so many speakers lack realism...

This opinion is not supported by the standing perceptual research.

-Chris

 

[treejohnny]

The plan was already to use a 4th order crossover especially because the first port resonance is about 120Hz.

As far as the speaker portion goes a DCX2496 will also be used as I have absolutely no intention of using a passive crossover. In the end it will be a four way with extremely high linear dispersion and non-resonant mono/virtual omni-polar system. A switching system will be used to allow for optimal configuration depending on the room the speakers are placed in.[/QUO






I am trying to learn all I can, but this is a little more than i can take in at once.

Can the DCX 2496 be used to totally replace crossover for two 3/4 way channels ?

I have read almost all of the manual of the dcx 2496 (it appears greek to me) and I know it has the EQ and filters/crossovers, and then the toys like delays and such. What advantage is there using this over a good preamp ? Is it more than being able to control individual channels with the crossover frequency ?

I do apologize if these are stupid questions.

 

[avaserfi]

Can the DCX 2496 be used to totally replace crossover for two 3/4 way channels ?

There really isn't much sense in replacing an existing passive crossover in a speaker, but the DCX2496 could do this. I am building a speaker from scratch that will be fully active and the DCX2496 will be used to control it as well as the sub. Think of my sub as another driver in a big speaker if that helps .

I have read almost all of the manual of the dcx 2496 (it appears greek to me) and I know it has the EQ and filters/crossovers, and then the toys like delays and such. What advantage is there using this over a good preamp ? Is it more than being able to control individual channels with the crossover frequency ?

The DCX2496 does not replace a preamp it is simply used in addition to one. The line will go pre-amp to DCX to amp to speaker. The DCX is being used to allow for 'perfect' integration of the drivers used as well as its superb EQ functions. This DCX2496 is harder to use than most equipment sold for home audio, but far more full featured especially at its untouched price point.

Also, I will be using the DCX2496 as an EQ for my recently purchased headphones (Beyer DT880s) expect a review soon.

 

[flippo]

anything new with build?

anything new with the build?

 

[avaserfi]

anything new with the build?

I have been busy with classes and work so the build has slowed. I will be working more today and hopefully having it finished by the end of the weekend. If not it will be finished by next weekend.

When I refer to finished I mean in a full working state. The veneer will not be put on this until a later date.