Flaw in New Receiver found - Anyone else ever have this

[timetohunt]

I took a dive on a Pioneer Elite VSX94-THX. There are many things so far I am loving about it.

Yet, I am trying to work out a problem with the dealer and Pioneer support at the moment.

I have my fronts separately amped as I always have. Pre out from the receiver as was with my older entry level Pioneer receiver. And as before I have a separate zone of a pair of speakers (upstairs in house) amped off the Surr Backs on the receiver.

Now this receiver offers many more options for adding zones than the old receiver. It also offers more in the way of second and third zone control if needed.

I have tried this second zone in a variety of configs, but no matter how its configured, when I use the SPEAKERS button which can turn off the main or secondary zones. Main zone=A, zone two=B, Options being both AB, A, B, or all speakers off. No matter what option is selected, my main front speakers will always play as long its connected to that separate power amp. I tested using the fronts amped from the receiver front terminals and SPEAKERS BUTTON worked as expected.

Some Pioneer techs said that it could be a problem in the Pre out stage of the receiver. It worked fine in a $280 Pioneer receiver. I hope this is indeed specific to my one unit, and not a forgotten design flaw in the VSX94.
Anyone seen this?

 

[markw]

I'm not a tech, but ...

I don't think that "speaker A/B" button has anything to do with the zones. This switch is between the receiver's internal front R/L power amps and the speakers.

The speaker A/B switch deals with the two front R/L (main) speakers that run off of the "A" terminals and two other (remote) speakers that run off of the "B" speaker terminals from those same amps. Speakers A (main) and B (remote) will always be playing the same source.

The speaker A/B selector selects which (or both or neither) pair(s) it will drive.

The "zone" outputs are line level output (before the power amps) that runs a separate pair of power amps (or internal ones, depending on how it's set up) and the speaker A/B switch won't have any effect on the speakers connected to these amps.

These additional "zones" generally have abilities to run a different analog source than the main "zone" and follow a totally separate amplification path totally bypassing the main power amps and the speaker A/B switch.

IOW. a speaker A/B switch is not a zone one, two or three selector switch.

 

[Haoleb]

Yeah. Its not an actual problem with the unit itself rather just the way it was designed. Most of the time when you are turning off the A or B speakers or whatever what your doing is switching the output, not actually cutting the input to the power amplifier section. I guess with your old one you just had a unit in which the designer decided he would want to switch the inputs or both at the same time.

 

[fmw]

I have tried this second zone in a variety of configs, but no matter how its configured, when I use the SPEAKERS button which can turn off the main or secondary zones. Main zone=A, zone two=B, Options being both AB, A, B, or all speakers off. No matter what option is selected, my main front speakers will always play as long its connected to that separate power amp. I tested using the fronts amped from the receiver front terminals and SPEAKERS BUTTON worked as expected.

I have a VSX92 but I don't have anything near the complexity you have in your setup. Personally, I wouldn't bother with an external power amp. The 92 and 94 have very muscular amplification. The A and B swith is not working for you because you aren't using the internal amplifier. It tells the internal amp which speakers to use. As soon as you take the signal out the preamp outputs, you bypass all of that because these controls have no way to control an external amplifier. Remember the speakers are connected to an outboard unit, not the receiver itself.

If the external amp has an on/off trigger control for power, you might hook that up and simply turn it off when you want silence from it.

Or try the receiver with its own amplification. I think you'll be impressed. I was.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

No man, sounds more like a zone assignment issue.

I have a VSX92 but I don't have anything near the complexity you have in your setup. Personally, I wouldn't bother with an external power amp. The 92 and 94 have very muscular amplification. The A and B swith is not working for you because you aren't using the internal amplifier. It tells the internal amp which speakers to use. As soon as you take the signal out the preamp outputs, you bypass all of that because these controls have no way to control an external amplifier. Remember the speakers are connected to an outboard unit, not the receiver itself.

If the external amp has an on/off trigger control for power, you might hook that up and simply turn it off when you want silence from it.

Or try the receiver with its own amplification. I think you'll be impressed. I was.

 

[timetohunt]

I have a VSX92 but I don't have anything near the complexity you have in your setup. Personally, I wouldn't bother with an external power amp. The 92 and 94 have very muscular amplification. The A and B swith is not working for you because you aren't using the internal amplifier. It tells the internal amp which speakers to use. As soon as you take the signal out the preamp outputs, you bypass all of that because these controls have no way to control an external amplifier. Remember the speakers are connected to an outboard unit, not the receiver itself.

If the external amp has an on/off trigger control for power, you might hook that up and simply turn it off when you want silence from it.

Or try the receiver with its own amplification. I think you'll be impressed. I was.

First, while I am impressed with the power of these units, I am also very impressed with running the fronts off of the separate amp. Now that I have it, I guess it will always be a part of my rig. Since I often crank, I kind of like to relieve the receiver of some amplification duties. In my brain, I see longer life for the receiver or something, which may or may not really be the case.

Now, as far as this A/B thing goes. 3 out of 4 different pioneer tech reps, said it should work the way I planned with SPEAKERS A, cutting on or off my separately powered fronts. The 4th non-sayer actually was a rep the dealer talked to, so I don't know. So really 3 out of 3 for me (all calling each on separate occasions over 2 days), giving me a final diagnosis of 'problem with the pre-out stage of the AVR'. The dealer is going to run a test on the 94 they have in the store. Also, remember that the VSX816, my old one, also a Pioneer, did work this way.

And what Gable said... more of a zone assignment issue or something close to that. I should know more soon.

 

[Hi Ho]

If you want to silence the main zone while using the other zones all you should have to do is turn the main zone off. That's how my Yamaha works.

 

[timetohunt]

If you want to silence the main zone while using the other zones all you should have to do is turn the main zone off. That's how my Yamaha works.

Yea, I can't turn off my main zone fronts using a control on the receiver that I know of. I would have to shut down the amp.

 

[Hi Ho]

You can't simply press the power button on the receiver? That is how most receivers work (not just Yamaha). The main zone can be off completely and a "Zone 2" or similar will show on the display.

 

[timetohunt]

You can't simply press the power button on the receiver? That is how most receivers work (not just Yamaha). The main zone can be off completely and a "Zone 2" or similar will show on the display.

I am guessing that you are refering to how it might work for a Zone 2 with separate amplification? My Zone 2 is powered from the receivers Surr Backs as part of 'zoning' options.

 

[fmw]

First, while I am impressed with the power of these units, I am also very impressed with running the fronts off of the separate amp. Now that I have it, I guess it will always be a part of my rig. Since I often crank, I kind of like to relieve the receiver of some amplification duties. In my brain, I see longer life for the receiver or something, which may or may not really be the case.

.

I would suggest it is just in your brain. I've heard the 92 drive 4 ohm speakers so loud it hurt with no clipping. It isn't even rated for 4 ohms. The rated power output is real. It is THX certified. The amps in your receiver are as strong as most separate amps. Using them won't hurt a thing. they run as cool as a cucumber and probably cooler than your separate. Seriously, try it.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

You should be able to run just zone two. I also use a ext.amp for my mains and the AVR runs my surrounds and zone two. I just hit 'zone 2' if I dont want my main system on.

I am guessing that you are refering to how it might work for a Zone 2 with separate amplification? My Zone 2 is powered from the receivers Surr Backs as part of 'zoning' options.

 

[timetohunt]

I would suggest it is just in your brain. I've heard the 92 drive 4 ohm speakers so loud it hurt with no clipping. It isn't even rated for 4 ohms. The rated power output is real. It is THX certified. The amps in your receiver are as strong as most separate amps. Using them won't hurt a thing. they run as cool as a cucumber and probably cooler than your separate. Seriously, try it.

Yes, I have noticed how cool this thing runs. Coolest of any receiver I have messed with. I tried it with receiver amps only, its fine. I think I still like all the extra headroom though, plus its my sence of augmentation that will keep me using the power amp.

I beleive I have my answer on the A/B setup as the dealer did a test with the VSX94 they have on display. It works just like mine. So mine is not broke, but I say this is still a design flaw. For whatever reason (one I want to find out), the Elite receiver must be designed differently from the lower end Pioneers on the A/B speakers controls relative to the preouts. To me, its a much slicker way to handle this in the darn cheaper models. I mean, if you can control volume, tone, and other stuff of the signal going into a separate power amp, then you should be able to shut it off from the receiver too.

Oh.. and there was one line found in the manual that supports the above findings.

"to hear sound only from the pre-outs, switch the speaker system to OFF (that is the A/B switch I have been refering to), or simply disconnect any speakers that are connected directly to the receiver"

Also in reverse would this imply: that if the front preouts are occupied with a separate amp the front speaker terminals on the receiver still would work if connected? If this is true, is that normal logic for audio.

 

[Davemcc]

I find it hard to believe that a receiver at this level requires zone 1 to be powered on in order to use zone 2. That is the real design flaw, if that is the case.

 

[bandphan]

Do you ave your surround back set to multi room multi source? Is the volume level set to varable in multi room setup?

 

[bandphan]

Also do you not have a multiroom control button? that can turn on just the additional zones. Mine works a preamp to my mac with no problems

 

[timetohunt]

I got the final word. Finally reached a very good tech rep with the right knowledge and a VSX94 right there in the lab. Hey, do all customer support brands and locations have gear set up right there for techs to use? I thought very highly of this (although its the way it should be). Is this the norm?

Please allow me to start a separate thread because I found this stuff out and it really had me wondering:

1. In the Elite Pioneers the Pre-Outs are always 'On'. Unlike some
older Pio units. Why? That might have to be answered by an engineer in Japan. Does this sound like good design?

2. Using Surround Backs for a second zone, only analog sources are accepted. Sound right?

3. No big deal. But most of the Zone 2 stuff is controlled only by remote, as opposed to panel controls or onscrenn menus.

What I want to know is are all receivers like this?

 

[markw]

1) I don't see a problem with pre-outs always being on. That makes sense to me.

As far as the mains go, most people replace the receiver's internal amp with the eternal power amp and hook up their speakers to that one.

2) As far as I know, it's SOP in all receivers I've encountered that any additional zones, no matter what power amps are used, only accepted analog sources. I can't think of any receivers that have a separate DAC for each zone.

No offense, but I still think you'e confusing the functions of a Speaker A/B selector switch with a zone selector. Two different creatures. A Speaker A/B switch will send whatever is avaialble on speaker A to speaker B. Not so with different zones where analog is a must.

 

[TLS Guy]

1) I don't see a problem with pre-outs always being on. That makes sense to me.

As far as the mains go, most people replace the receiver's internal amp with the eternal power amp and hook up their speakers to that one.

2) As far as I know, it's SOP in all receivers I've encountered that any additional zones, no matter what power amps are used, only accepted analog sources. I can't think of any receivers that have a separate DAC for each zone.

It makes sense to me also. I would expect a pre out to be always on. After all that is the output from the preamp section. As another member said, just switch off your external power amp when you don't want to hear from it.

 

[timetohunt]

It makes sense to me also. I would expect a pre out to be always on. After all that is the output from the preamp section. As another member said, just switch off your external power amp when you don't want to hear from it.

I'm getting it all now. Playing with this thing to minute detail is the only key to getting it.

One thing that had me thrown briefly was, when I was told that zone 2 only accepted analog sources, I was thinking 2ch CD or Phono only, while it only means that you have to have your analog outs coming from your DVD player along with your HMDI or other digi cable you may use. You can actually play Dolby Surround in one zone and get the stereo of the same DVD in zone 2. My initial thought was I could not play DVDs. I got through that one quickly, brain malfunction.

And how bout that the tech rep had a 94 right there to play with as we worked some of this out. Is that normal or above the standard? I thought that was pretty cool, nobody else in tech support ever told me that.