What does truth finding sources like Audioholics say about Preamps ?

T

timetohunt

Audioholic
Its hard to believe, but around my parts I am the resident audio expert, at least amongst my friends and family. I really only know a smigen of what there is to know and have only been studying for a year or so. So, I am the one they ask. In my opinion I am still in the Sgt. Shultz stage, "I know nothing!"

Some of my friends have been getting interested in audio and setting up HT or other audio systems. The first thing I always tell them before even starting a discussion is to read 'The 10 biggest lies in Audio' from the Audio Critic. To me its a good way to get grounded before going crazy with the wallet, even if you want to get crazy. (Which by the way is fine, get what ya like even if its just for looks, but be in the know at least).

Anyway, for those who think in terms of facts and proof, what is the word on Preamps ? I have not seen much from 'this' side of the audio world on Preamps. To be more specific, is the preamp stage in a good receiver, as good, or sound as good, as separates.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
receivers are as good to use as preamps/prepros as any separate preamp, plus you get the latest and greatest video/audio features, a free tuner, free amp section (which you can use for surrounds and surround backs).
 
Haoleb

Haoleb

Audioholic Field Marshall
Cant say I agree that a reciever could ever be as good as a quality seperate preamp. When I say preamp i mean an analog 2 channel preamp. Not some video switching, audio expanding, 600 eq settings HT "thing" ;)
 
I

InTheIndustry

Senior Audioholic
Cant say I agree that a reciever could ever be as good as a quality seperate preamp. When I say preamp i mean an analog 2 channel preamp. Not some video switching, audio expanding, 600 eq settings HT "thing" ;)
Agreed.

As your speakers change your need for different amplification may or may not change. If that need dictates you go to "seperates" then, obviously, you buy an amplifier. From there, you pick your pre-amp. I recommend the same pre-amp from the same series & manufacturer you choose your amp from. When in the design & manufacturing phases a company like Parasound, for example, doesn't test & calibrate their amp using Sunfire pre-amps or parts. They set it up and design it to work best with their parts. Lets face it, when you're spending that kind of money on speakers, amp, pre-amp, power supply, etc. you're looking to maximize your listening experience. Limiting the variables and keeping constants between certain pieces of equipment tends to get the best performance.


Note: This is by no means an "absolute" but rather how I put systems together for clients to get the most coherent ("as one" so to speak) result. You may or may not get audible differences between two different brands when matching pre-amps & amps. I wouldn't dissagree with anyone who stated one way or the other as I have not tried every possible combination from every possible brand. One thing to keep in mind when shopping is the feature set on the pre-amp because most tend to be very behind on video switching technologies (take Parasound for example). A way to get around that is to buy a reasonable video scaler/switcher.

By the way, Timetohunt, are you hunting for worms? Because if so, I think you've just found a huge can of them. Given the past history of the receiver crowd and the seperates crowd this might shape up to be an entertaining thread!

Keep one thing in mind: (Picture me taking a bite out of an apple) Quoting King Leonidas from "300": "There's no reason we can't be civil".
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
As haloeb allready said if were comparing a quality 2 channel preamp against a HT receiver there is no question in my mind that the preamp will out perform.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
A lot of anecdotal input. Preamps do two things. The basic thing they do is take line level signals and amplify them enough to drive a power amplifer or amplifier stage. The specifications will tell you whether a preamp does that with linearity or not. In a nutshell, the specs on modern receivers show that their preamps do that as well as it can be done. It would be a belief not a provable fact that a separate preamp would outperform it in the area of increasing the amplitude of signals.

The other thing a preamp does in modern A/V is digital signal processing. It becomes a computer that processes data and converts that data to analog signals as required. It is certainly possible that some receivers out process some separate preamps and it is certainly possible that some separate preamps outprocess some receivers. I haven't done enough testing (mostly from lack of interest) to tell you definitively that this is true.

I can tell you that I had a receiver with a poor quality processer that injected all kinds of noises into the output. I have a better one now that doesn't do that. There is no doubt the better receiver outprocesses the cheaper one in that sense. So, yes, I would say that some processers are better than others.

But would the processor in a separate preamp outprocess the one in the better receiver because it is separate from an amplifier stage? I don't know but I honestly doubt it. Someone would have to prove it to me. I wouldn't accept it on anecdotal evidence because, since processors are really computers, there is no logical reason that they should do better outside the vicinity (and power supply) of a power amplifer. In others words, I see no reason that a high quality processor can't be made into a receiver just as well as it can be made into a separate box. There are some receivers, as you probably know, that have very sophisticated digital processors built into them and cost more than most separate pre/pros. Same holds true for some separate preamps. But I've been proved wrong before and would be willing to be proved wrong again.

My own receiver has a quiet, competent processor, runs cool as a cucumber and can drive 4 ohm loads of average sensitivity at painfully loud levels in a home environment without clipping or distorting beyond specification. That's a fact that was proven to me scientifically and is not anecdotal evidence. Seems to me, any more than that is probably gilt on the lily. I think you can acheive good performance in various ways with the right equipment.

Sorry for the rant.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
first, the OP must tell us if this is for 2 channel or an HT setup.

I am gearing up to replace the receiver acting as preamp for my 2 channel bedroom myself with a ... wait for it ... a separate 2 channel preamp. not because I think I will hear an improvement of SQ, but because:

-it's gonna match my amp in looks
-a 2 channel preamp is cheap (compared to a hitech receiver)
-a simpler unit like a 2 channel preamp should be able to boot faster (i hate the few seconds delay on receivers)
-it just looks cool
-nothing says 2 channel setup like a 2 channel preamp :)
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
I think you run into a conundrum of mass appeal when you talk about preamps vs. receivers.

First off... Stereo is dead.

Not in the morbid - buried six feet under, being gnawed on by ants sort of way, but more in the "Geez, did that guy just fall off the face of the earth?" kind of way.

While the are afficianados of stereo, for the most part, everyone and their uncle.... and their kids - they all want surround sound.

Throw in the fact that people are idiots.

Yes, you may disagree and point out with all your heart, that you indeed are not an idiot... But you would be wrong. The first step in life is admitting you are indeed, an idiot. Because we all are. There is just to much that we are supposed to know, and no way in the world for us to have enough time to know it all. So, for most of the world, that idiocy lies squarely in the world of A/V. So, yes, you may not be an A/V idiot, but when 99.9% of the world is an A/V idiot, the manufacturers are just a bit more likely to cater to them, instead of... oh say... you.

With that knowledge at hand, we now can start to understand why it is that a $500 receiver, can sound just as good - if not better - in the preamp stage as a $2,000 one-off hand build piece from a high end, nose in the air company. You see, the high end piece just isn't any better. Sure, those guys have the knowledge, but in reality, the company making the $500 product often has 10 guys with that knowledge for every one guy that smaller company has. Those guys also have a budget that makes little countries, like Canada, a bit jealous. You see, they have the technological resources, the in-house testing facilities, the experience, and the sheer capability to put out a product that meets, or exceeds almost anything else that can be made.

For stereo, they don't - because they don't care.

You hear, already, such silly statements as "Buy a really nice amplifier, then buy a really nice pre-amp FROM THE SAME COMPANY". Yet, somehow, you are now under the impression that if you put them on top of one another in an equipment rack you will somehow generate better sound that if you put them one on top of the other inside the same equipment case.

Do you really think that makes any sense at all?

Now, a good company, with high dollar product, that is actually a GOOD company, will deliver good product. It doesn't matter if it is separates or integrated, the bottom line is that good is good, and you must evaluate every piece you listen to individually.

IMO: If you are considering separates, then get a good amplifier. One that is specifically good. Don't think about who it comes from or what the brand name is, just get one that is good for your speakers, room, and needs.

Then go find a preamp that is good. A good amp isn't going to add color to the audio, and a good pre-amp is going to work with any amp perfectly. My biggest headache is that I really want a preamp that does very little... but does it all. That is, one with HDMI in/out, but not 10 HDMI connections, just one.. or two. One with a few analog audio inputs, and limited video connections. Maybe a 2 or 3 space preamp, at a reasonable price. Give me a Denon 3808 without the amp, and with a quarter the inputs/outputs, but with ALL the underlying processing.

Then give me an amplifier that really knocks my socks off.

One they can hear in Canada would be nice. :D
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
...The other thing a preamp does in modern A/V is digital signal processing. It becomes a computer that processes data and converts that data to analog signals as required. It is certainly possible that some receivers out process some separate preamps and it is certainly possible that some separate preamps outprocess some receivers...I can tell you that I had a receiver with a poor quality processer that injected all kinds of noises into the output. I have a better one now that doesn't do that. There is no doubt the better receiver outprocesses the cheaper one in that sense. So, yes, I would say that some processers are better than others...But would the processor in a separate preamp outprocess the one in the better receiver because it is separate from an amplifier stage?...
Things that sound the same: Analog Stereo Preamps, Amps, CD players, DACs, and Wires/Cables.

Things that sound differently: digital PROCESSORS, speakers, and room acoustics.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought True Analog Stereo Preamplifiers don't have digital processors, correct?
They just take the line-level Analog PCM signal from the DACs of the Media Players (CDs, DVDs, Blu-rays, etc.) and send it to the amplifier, right?
True Analog Stereo Preamplifiers don't even have Tone Controls, Subwoofer/Bass Management, Video Processors, or DSPs, right?

I would say that Receivers and Preamp-Processors (Pre-Pros) are more alike. The only difference is that the Pre-pros don't have internal amplifiers.

I truly wanted to believe that Pre-pros & Receivers sound as good as my Acurus RL-11 Preamp. I really did NOT intend on having 4 preamps!:D
It would be a lot simpler to just get a receiver or pre-pro. But after comparing a Receiver (Harman Kardon 247), a Pre-pro (Pioneer Elite SP99D), and a Preamp (Acurus RL-11 Analog Stereo Preamp), it was clear to me that the dedicated analog stereo preamp's sound was CLEANER/CLEARER than both the Receiver and Pre-Pro (volume level matched). Interestingly enough, the Receiver's sound was clearer than the Pre-Pro.

Now I've noticed a bunch of "so-called" analog stereo preamps that have Tone Controls, Video Processors, and a gambit of Digital features. These are just the same as the Pre-pros and Receivers.

But look at Preamps from Krell and Mark Levinson, among others--simple analog line-level signal.

That's my take.:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
...is the preamp stage in a good receiver, as good, or sound as good, as separates.
Excellent Preamp Stage in an Excellent Receiver = Excellent Preamp Separate.
Mediocre Preamp in a Mediocre Receiver < Excellent Preamp Separate.
Excellent Preamp in an Excellent Receiver > Mediocre Preamp Separate.

A higher-end Receiver from Yahama, Onkyo, Denon, HK, etc., will probably sound better than a $200 AudioSource Preamplifier, but will probably sound the same as a $600-$1,000 Pre-Pros or Preamp from Parasound, Emotiva, Outlaw Audio, or NuForce. IMO.
 
R

rnatalli

Audioholic Ninja
I always prefer a separate preamp myself. Having compared my Emotiva to a Denon, I felt the Emotiva delivered cleaner sound, but not by a large margin. This is comparing a $499 preamp to a $349 receiver so not exactly fair. Had I compared the Emotiva to a $899 receiver, the story would be different.
 
Soundman

Soundman

Audioholic Field Marshall
I always prefer a separate preamp myself. Having compared my Emotiva to a Denon, I felt the Emotiva delivered cleaner sound, but not by a large margin. This is comparing a $499 preamp to a $349 receiver so not exactly fair. Had I compared the Emotiva to a $899 receiver, the story would be different.
Good point. I do feel like all the Emotiva stuff delivers clean neutral sound. BTW, nice pre/pro! :D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Are you sure about that?
I just hate it when manufacturers (except HK) claim that their receivers are 140 wpc x 7 and it's actually only about 90 wpc x 7 ch driven. Whether you need all that power is another story.

Doesn't anyone feel a little cheated?
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
You can buy a THX receiver and then the specifications are certified.
 

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