Best audio format

[fmw]

The reason for this is simple. Krall is part of a subgenre of jazz musicians setting out to appeal to the mainstream of pop/rock listeners, not "purists" such as yourself (and she has succeeded in this regard.) The audience for natural sounding jazz has been very small for decades. If you want that kind of sound, you will have to stick to specialty labels.
Personally, I enjoy the "pop jazz" sound more than the purist stuff. When the bass is not boosted, it sounds weak to my ears.

Actually, I view her sound as very traditional as jazz goes. She would have fit in just fine in the post bop era. We normally call rock-like jazz fusion and she is certainly not a fusion player. She plays mostly old standards and torch songs. She has been enormously successful in getting pop music listeners interested in jazz and deserves serious kudos for that. The reason, I think, is that she is a good singer and she sings good songs. That's usually a pretty good combination.

Most of her recordings use acoustic bass and acoustic drums. When she has a jazz guitar it is electric but so have most jazz guitars been for the past 1/2 century or so. Her trio and quartet are just like most trios and quartets you would find at any jazz club. She plays a Steinway acoustic piano. I'm not a purist. I like all kinds of jazz including fusion, latin etc. etc. I just don't like the technicians to boost the level of the string bass beyond where it should be in a jazz ensemble. It doesn't enhance the recording and it doesn't make it appeal more to non jazz listeners. It just fouls up the overall sound of the ensemble. The bass is critically important to jazz music. You'll find it in almost every jazz recording ever made. It should sound right and shouldn't dominate the soloists. That was my only point.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hello David. I notice from your signature that you own a Denon player. Do you happen to know how I can get my Denon DVD-1920 player to recognize Hybrid SACD discs?

I recently configured it to multi-channel, and I have the 6 analog RCA jacks connected into my Yamaha receiver. It reads my pure - SACD only disc just fine, and produces a very nice 5.1 channel surround sound. Billy Joel's 52nd Street is the first SACD disc I got, and it sounds terrific in 5.1 SACD sound. It is an SACD only disc, so it doesn't have the Hybrid CD layer.

But I'm finding that, on my Hybrid discs, it only recognizes the CD layer and is not picking up the SACD layer, so it is only reproducing the standard two-channel stereo. Would you happen to know if this is a configuration issue?

Thank you - in advance.

Regards.

Please read the previous posts in this thread. SACD is not a PCM based system and a PCM decoder will not recognize it. It requires a DSP decoder. This is a very different animal. The problem is cheaper gear fakes it. To play a SCAD properly you need a player that has good DSP decoding and use the multichannel analog out to the Multichannel in. Generally this means no bass management and no channel level control, it is pass through. Also for classical SACDs there will be no sub out. You have to go to a lot of trouble to play an SACD properly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_signal_processing

There seems massive misunderstanding in these forums about what SACD actually is and how to correctly handle it. I doubt many posting on these forums are hearing the SACD decoded by DSP as intended. It seems we have massive education to do on this. Please try to really understand what I have written about this in this thread. I seem to be going over this again and again.

 

[TLS Guy]

My pics for SACD are the following. These are exciting musical performances combined with outstanding technical excellence in my view.

I would recommend the new cycle of Beethoven symphonies from the Minnesota Orchestra under Osmo Vanska, on BIS. These are exciting performances and the acoustic of Orchestra Hall captured to just about perfection. Symphonies 2 and 7 are yet to be released. The first disc was 4 and 5 BIS-SACD 1416.

i would give a strong recommendation to Vivaldi's La Stravaganza with Rachael Podger violin, with Arte Dei Suonatori on Channal Classics CCS SA 19503. The performances throw all caution to the winds. The acoustic of the Church of The High Catholic Seminary Goscikowo-Paradz, Poland is very believable.

For shear technical wizardry both on the part of the performer and the recording engineers this disc must just about be unsurpassed. It is Winfried Bonig playing the Klais organs of Cologne Cathedral. Motet 13245. Available form the Organ Historical Society. These are transcriptions of works by Bruckner, Liszt and Richard Strauss. This will challenge any system to the full. The recording is amazing in its realism. The sounds emanate from high in the distance and suspend in space. The dynamic of the full organ huge. The large bass divisions delivered with full authority. You will need powerful rear speakers as there is a large rear division.

A new release is the 3 SACD set of Sir Granville Bantock's Omar Khayyam conducted by Vernon Handley. Chandos CHSA 5051(3), must be on the list. This is the first recording of this interesting score. The engineering is beyond reproach.

Finally Wilma Cozart Fines remastering of her late Husband's recordings for Mercury Living Presence recorded in the fifties are a must. These recordings were made in three channel from three spaced omni Telefunken microphones and recorded to an optical recorder or a three channel Ampex tape recorder. These SACDs are three channel. Everyone of these can teach the youngsters a thing or two.

I would especially mention Paul Paray's account of the Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique, with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra. MSA 475 6622. These recordings have unbelievable perspective. Just listen to the definition on the bass drum in the fifth Mov. "Dream of a witches Sabbath". Everything is captured here, blazing brass the lot. Paul Paray had no peers in this repertory.

I should correct MS Cozart Fine's name, she is of course Wilma Cozart fine. This is a good source of classical discs.

http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/main.jsp?gclid=CKTjqMKyxpACFQ2aOAodVgSkXQ

These are good sites for organ and choral music discs.

http://www.gothic-catalog.com/Default.asp?Redirected=Y

http://www.organsociety.org/

 

[Johnd]

You have to go to a lot of trouble to play an SACD properly.

I don't know if I agree with that statement TLS. I'll admit initial setup of the player and cords may take an hour or two, and perhaps many more hours for ideal speaker placement, but once those two things are accomplished, I don't see what is so terribly troublesome about sacd.

Now, perfect sacd playback in an ideal setting is one thing. But to get a world of difference from redbook to sacd (via a quality sacd) was no more difficult for me than I just described.

 

[TLS Guy]

I don't know if I agree with that statement TLS. I'll admit initial setup of the player and cords may take an hour or two, and perhaps many more hours for ideal speaker placement, but once those two things are accomplished, I don't see what is so terribly troublesome about sacd.

Now, perfect sacd playback in an ideal setting is one thing. But to get a world of difference from redbook to sacd (via a quality sacd) was no more difficult for me than I just described.

Please be good enough to tell us exactly what your set up is, and how everything is connected. I'm really interested to know how people are handling SACD playback. I'm especially interested as to how you handle bass management and level matching from your pass through analog inputs. I have published how I handle these issues including in his thread. I think this is an area that needs wide discussion. People describing their hook ups in detail would be a good start. I know from some posts that there are hook ups out there that can't possibly be correct.

 

[Johnd]

Denon 2900 via analog (sacd only) to Denon 5803 sent to Paradigm 100 mains, cc570 center, servo 15 sub (superbly accurate bass...and lots of it...yeah) and monitor surrounds (less than ideal...I know, but the timbre is not so far off). Sub level set to 0 and all others at -10.

You've made this into a bass management issue (a non-issue with full range speakers) and a level matching issue, which I firmly believe can be done with a well tuned ear. After all, that's what we ultimately use, is it not? While the 2900 lacks in a couple of areas (time alignment), I am profoundly impressed with its sacd capability and playback on my system. The biggest improvement I could make for sacd playback would be studio rears, but believe me, it's not that lacking. What I hold in high regard for good sacd playback is phenomenal speakers and good speaker placement.

 

[TLS Guy]

Denon 2900 via analog (sacd only) to Denon 5803 sent to Paradigm 100 mains, cc570 center, servo 15 sub (superbly accurate bass...and lots of it...yeah) and monitor surrounds (less than ideal...I know, but the timbre is not so far off). Sub level set to 0 and all others at -10.

You've made this into a bass management issue (a non-issue with full range speakers) and a level matching issue, which I firmly believe can be done with a well tuned ear. After all, that's what we ultimately use, is it not? While the 2900 lacks in a couple of areas (time alignment), I am profoundly impressed with its sacd capability and playback on my system. The biggest improvement I could make for sacd playback would be studio rears, but believe me, it's not that lacking. What I hold in high regard for good sacd playback is phenomenal speakers and good speaker placement.

Yes I did. I think a lot of units are the same as mine. The analog ext inputs of my Rotel are pass through. Only the volume is controlled. There is no sub output and no level matching. I had to put a switch in the disconnect the LFE out and parallel a set of amps and do external level match. I can see from posts that how my Rotel handles this is not unusual.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yes I did. I think a lot of units are the same as mine. The analog ext inputs of my Rotel are pass through. Only the volume is controlled. There is no sub output and no level matching. I had to put a switch in the disconnect the LFE out and parallel a set of amps and do external level match. I can see from posts that how my Rotel handles this is not unusual.

Why wouldn't the DVD player handle level matching and distance setup with the analog outs? Some also would direct the lows in the right place?

 

[mtrycrafts]

You've made this into a bass management issue (a non-issue with full range speakers) and a level matching issue, which I firmly believe can be done with a well tuned ear. .

If you mean a 1dB spl difference between channels is a well tuned ear, then yes, by all means

 

[rnatalli]

I say we dump these mediums that require moving parts which often break down and start putting music on memory sticks in lossless formats. Who's with me?

 

[TLS Guy]

Why wouldn't the DVD player handle level matching and distance setup with the analog outs? Some also would direct the lows in the right place?

On mine everything form SACD is pass through.

 

[TLS Guy]

True SACD processing

I think this whole issue we are dealing with is related to information contained in this thread.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37634

I think if a player truly outputs from a DSP decoder, that's the way the signals will appear.

 

[davidtwotrees]

Hello David. I notice from your signature that you own a Denon player. Do you happen to know how I can get my Denon DVD-1920 player to recognize Hybrid SACD discs? Thank you - in advance.
Regards.

Hey, not sure if this will help, but a while back I had lost the multi channel playback and the options to switch it from two channel were greyed out and not available. Another Denon owner gave me this advise that I copied to word and will now paste here verbatim.........
"What is your speaker configuration in the player? If you don't have it setup to use all channels you may not have all options available. Also, with the 2200 and 2900 you had to run the speaker setup first before the m/c options would become available. Which means, if you accidentally switched to 2ch, you have to re-run the speaker config for m/c to make those options available.
I don't recall if I needed to set the HDMI Audio settings to 2CH in order to enable the analog MC's, but if you have not done so, give it a shot."

Hope that makes sense and helps, it did for me......

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I say we dump these mediums that require moving parts which often break down and start putting music on memory sticks in lossless formats. Who's with me?

If I could buy the sticks pre-loaded with cover art, lyrics, etc., that might be OK. I will never go for downloading, though. (I will also always have a CD player for the huge collection I own already.)

 

[davidtwotrees]

I think this whole issue we are dealing with is related to information contained in this thread.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37634

I think if a player truly outputs from a DSP decoder, that's the way the signals will appear.

I have a Denon 3910 Universal Player that goes through 5.1 analog cables to my Audio Refinement Pre2DSP
The AR Pre2DSP manual states that "the input signal does not go through DSP processing but will be sent through by volume control and sent to 5.1 audio output"

I am all ears as to weather or not my system is properly set up for SACD listening. The Denon SACD light certainly comes on when I put in a disc. It also will show what channel's corresponding speakers will play from the disc..... L/R for two channel sacd's and L/R/C/RS/LS for multi channel sacds.

 

[no. 5]

SACD is not a PCM based system and a PCM decoder will not recognize it. It requires a DSP decoder.

DSP or DSD?

 

[mtrycrafts]

(I will also always have a CD player for the huge collection I own already.)

Up-load to the sticks. End of the players.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

Up-load to the sticks. End of the players.

Upload over 3,000 CDs?! No, thanks.

 

[TLS Guy]

Up-load to the sticks. End of the players.

DSD, sorry. Doing this in too much of a hurry over Christmas!

 

[adam71]

Upload over 3,000 CDs?! No, thanks.

You have over 3,000 Cds???