Best audio format

[adam71]

I purchased a dual disc some while back. Upon placing it in my Denon 3910, the whole unit began to shimmy and shake something fierce. The unit became very warm. I can't remember exactly but I think an error message came up. I took the disc back and returned it for another. Same thing. Come to find out Denon would not include the dualdisc in it's list of playable discs for it players.

I have a 3910 as well and own only 1 dual-disc which is AC/DC's Back In Black and it plays fine. But who says the DVD side of DualDiscs are created equal. Have you done the firmware upgrade for your 3910 yet??

 

[WmAx]

In most cases I do prefer the sound of vinyl over CD because more care has gone into producing the LP verses the CD.

Todays CD seem flat and loud. They actually pale in comparison to the realism of vinyl. This is not the fault of the CD medium but the fault of the production engineer.

Although CD is technically superior to vinyl, the recording engineers DO NOT take advantage of its capabilities except for maybe classical and jazz recordings.

So does vinyl sound better than CD? In most cases, definately!!!

Indeed. But today, even jazz is now usually compressed to hell and back. It is sad that it has come to this point. It is so bad across the entire musical front, now, I am contemplating investing in a high grade vinyl playback table and cartridge and record cleaning system. I will not use it regularly, but instead to transfer vinyl to the digital realm to produce CDs from it and digital files for playback on the computer.

I speak literally when I say that I can not listen to the putrid sound quality of most modern CD releases, regardless of genre, excepting classical, where many good productions still exist(for now).

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

Excepting of course when the DVDA and SACD were played in multi channel against redbook cd. Then it was almost universally agreeed that the first two formats were better by far...........this was the last thing mentioned by the author's of the article.......

But that is an apple and an orange comparison Of course multi ch will present better. That was known since the Bell Labs experimentations way back in the 1930, you remember it right? LOL

 

[mtrycrafts]

Also note that it was auditioned by "many listeners." Not audiophiles. While I understand that many cannot discern am radio from a htib to an sacd masterpiece on a nice system...I certainly can, as I trust most here at Audioholics can as well.

Who said the group didn't contain audiophiles? It also included people who mastered and produced these formats. Professionals, etc.

 

[krabapple]

So does vinyl sound better than CD? In most cases, definately!!!

Buy/listen to much classical music?

 

[krabapple]

But that is an apple and an orange comparison Of course multi ch will present better. That was known since the Bell Labs experimentations way back in the 1930, you remember it right? LOL

Yup. An interesting follow-up would compare something like DTS 24/96 (high-bitrate lossy compressed) with SACD or DVD-A or Dolby TrueHD or DTS Master Audio (all lossless compressed) multichannel, in a fair blind test . Oh, the howling!

 

[fmw]

Indeed. But today, even jazz is now usually compressed to hell and back. It is sad that it has come to this point. It is so bad across the entire musical front, now, I am contemplating investing in a high grade vinyl playback table and cartridge and record cleaning system. I will not use it regularly, but instead to transfer vinyl to the digital realm to produce CDs from it and digital files for playback on the computer.

I speak literally when I say that I can not listen to the putrid sound quality of most modern CD releases, regardless of genre, excepting classical, where many good productions still exist(for now).

-Chris

My major complaint about jazz cd's today is that they boost the bass beyond the level it should have in a jazz group. A good example would be the Diana Krall cd's. They are heralded as outstanding recordings and they are. But they are mixed badly with overpowering bass that sounds like a Fender electric rather than an upright acoustic bass.

That is the current "style" in mixing, probably resulting from the home theater thing or perhaps just from rock music. Jazz ensembles don't have stacks of Marshall bass amps. I wish the techs would spend a little time in a jazz club listening live. That's the sound you should want. When you close mike every instrument and record it separately you end up putting too much personal preference into the mix and you lose the sound of the venue itself. I'd like to see the techs working to produce a live jazz club sound in the mix. Some of the best jazz recordings I have are recorded with two mics and just tweaked in the mastering.

With orchestral classical they can't close mike every instrument so they get a realistic concert hall sound almost every time because of the simplicity of the setup. That's why classic recordings are usually truer to the performance venue than anything else.

 

[davidtwotrees]

Jazz ensembles don't have stacks of Marshall bass amps.............

Excellent point, FMW. I'm not musical enough to describe the upright bass sound in a Live Jazz Club situation.........but it has a quiet strength and a warm sound that is quite different from an amplified electric bass like a rock bassist would play.........

I know J. Atkinson gets some grief on internet forums, but I think he is really concerned with recording quality.......I like how Stereophile uses two ratings for music, one for the actual music, and the other strictly on the quality of the sound recording. He also goes in depth into how he records live Stereophile recordings and the plusses and minuses of various set ups.
Any thoughts on J.A. and Stereophile in this regard?

 

[fmw]

I give them as much grief as anyone else on the internet only because they deserve it for the wild subjectivity in their equipment reviews and ratings. I do agree with you that they should and do devote space in the magazine for music reviews and I think they handle those as well as any music critic. I support what JA does in the area of media and music ratings.

I will add that music critics, like any critics, rate the quality of a performance based on a set of preferences and biases that may not be shared by everyone. So, I think it is important to have a feel for the critic's own biases before accepting the results of a critique. I usually take opinions about musical performances better from musicians themselves. I'm a musician and my preferences in a performance may be different than those of a non-musician but more similar to those of other musicians.

By the way, is the London House still there in Chicago? There was another jazz club I used to visit on Rush street in the 1980's. I've forgotten the name. I spent some great hours in both of them.

 

[WmAx]

A good example would be the Diana Krall cd's. They are heralded as outstanding recordings and they are.

Outstanding - not in my book. Fake sound. Compressed to hell. Non-linear microphones used and/or E.Q.

I wish the techs would spend a little time in a jazz club listening live. That's the sound you should want.

Actually, I only agree if you mean a non amplified performance. I hate all amplified performances of things that are supposed to be acoustic/natural. I am absurdly picky about these things; I want realistic sound to come across my sound system. I want them to adopt puris Mapleshade Studio style recording for jazz, but with digital recording systems, not analog recording systems that have audible noise and tape saturation that is present on Mapleshade recordings.

-Chris

 

[TLS Guy]

Outstanding - not in my book. Fake sound. Compressed to hell. Non-linear microphones used and/or E.Q.



Actually, I only agree if you mean a non amplified performance. I hate all amplified performances of things that are supposed to be acoustic/natural. I am absurdly picky about these things; I want realistic sound to come across my sound system. I want them to adopt puris Mapleshade Studio style recording for jazz, but with digital recording systems, not analog recording systems that have audible noise and tape saturation that is present on Mapleshade recordings.

-Chris

Amen to that Chris!

 

[davidtwotrees]

OK. Damn you objectivists! Smiles. I have learned in some of my journeys that striving to always be teachable is a noble trait. I thought the Diana Krall DVD Audio discs I had sounded wonderful. So here we have that they are compressed. Sighs. Tonight I listened to Patricia Barber Modern Cool Two Channel SACD and thought it was really, really good. Chris, while I haven't opened up my speakers, they are 1" mdf and sound pretty dead on the knock test, and sound damn good to my way of thinking...........anyway, what do you suggest as some good reference discs when it comes to companies........I have some TelArc sacd's that I think are great. I have heard good things about Mapleshade, but they scream subjectivist as soon as you open up their catalog. It is, in the end, about the music for me, but if I can get the best sounding music possible, then that would be icing on the cake for me.........

 

[davidtwotrees]

By the way, is the London House still there in Chicago? There was another jazz club I used to visit on Rush street in the 1980's. I've forgotten the name. I spent some great hours in both of them.

Gosh, if it is, I don't know of it. Wikipedia says there is a Burger King on that spot now. I am pretty new to jazz. In fact, I disliked jazz very much and thought of it as disjointed sharps and flats that made my head hurt......and then someone popped in Miles Davis Kind of Blue.......man, if that was jazz, then I was in......smiles. Ah Ha moments are what make life grand.

 

[TLS Guy]

OK. Damn you objectivists! Smiles. I have learned in some of my journeys that striving to always be teachable is a noble trait. I thought the Diana Krall DVD Audio discs I had sounded wonderful. So here we have that they are compressed. Sighs. Tonight I listened to Patricia Barber Modern Cool Two Channel SACD and thought it was really, really good. Chris, while I haven't opened up my speakers, they are 1" mdf and sound pretty dead on the knock test, and sound damn good to my way of thinking...........anyway, what do you suggest as some good reference discs when it comes to companies........I have some TelArc sacd's that I think are great. I have heard good things about Mapleshade, but they scream subjectivist as soon as you open up their catalog. It is, in the end, about the music for me, but if I can get the best sounding music possible, then that would be icing on the cake for me.........

My pics for SACD are the following. These are exciting musical performances combined with outstanding technical excellence in my view.

I would recommend the new cycle of Beethoven symphonies from the Minnesota Orchestra under Osmo Vanska, on BIS. These are exciting performances and the acoustic of Orchestra Hall captured to just about perfection. Symphonies 2 and 7 are yet to be released. The first disc was 4 and 5 BIS-SACD 1416.

i would give a strong recommendation to Vivaldi's La Stravaganza with Rachael Podger violin, with Arte Dei Suonatori on Channal Classics CCS SA 19503. The performances throw all caution to the winds. The acoustic of the Church of The High Catholic Seminary Goscikowo-Paradz, Poland is very believable.

For shear technical wizardry both on the part of the performer and the recording engineers this disc must just about be unsurpassed. It is Winfried Bonig playing the Klais organs of Cologne Cathedral. Motet 13245. Available form the Organ Historical Society. These are transcriptions of works by Bruckner, Liszt and Richard Strauss. This will challenge any system to the full. The recording is amazing in its realism. The sounds emanate from high in the distance and suspend in space. The dynamic of the full organ huge. The large bass divisions delivered with full authority. You will need powerful rear speakers as there is a large rear division.

A new release is the 3 SACD set of Sir Granville Bantock's Omar Khayyam conducted by Vernon Hnadley. Chandos CHSA 5051(3), must be on the list. This is the first recording of this interesting score. The engineering is beyond reproach.

Finally Elizabeth Cozart Fines remastering of her late Husband's recordings for Mercury Living Presence recorded in the fifties are a must. These recordings were made in three channel from three spaced omni Telefunken microphones and recorded to an optical recorder or a three channel Ampex tape recorder. These SACDs are three channel. Everyone of these can teach the youngsters a thing or two.

I would especially mention Paul Paray's account of the Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique, with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra. MSA 475 6622. These recordings have unbelievable perspective. Just listen to the definition on the bass drum in the fifth Mov. "Dream of a witches Sabbath". Everything is captured here, blazing brass the lot. Paul Paray had no peers in this repertory.

 

[fmw]

Gosh, if it is, I don't know of it. Wikipedia says there is a Burger King on that spot now. I am pretty new to jazz. In fact, I disliked jazz very much and thought of it as disjointed sharps and flats that made my head hurt......and then someone popped in Miles Davis Kind of Blue.......man, if that was jazz, then I was in......smiles. Ah Ha moments are what make life grand.

Ah well, that's progress, I guess. From a world famous jazz venue to a world famous hamburger stand. Miles was one of the great ones to be sure. No doubt about that.

Jazz can sound discordant to a pop music listener just like Bartok can sound discordant to people who are used to listening to Mozart. Jazz is based primarily on the blues scale and when you get accustomed to that scale, then everything in jazz sounds pretty normal and pretty - well - pretty. Go listen to some Indian music and there is yet another scale to dig into. There are many other musical scales around the world as well.

Oscar Peterson died a couple of days ago to the sadness of the jazz world. He was, in my opinion, the greatest jazz pianist of all time. Go pick up something he recorded in the 1950's or 60's - back when his trio included Ray Brown and Ed Thigpen. I think you will find his riffs and chords very agreeable whether you are a jazz buff or not.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

My major complaint about jazz cd's today is that they boost the bass beyond the level it should have in a jazz group. A good example would be the Diana Krall cd's. They are heralded as outstanding recordings and they are. But they are mixed badly with overpowering bass that sounds like a Fender electric rather than an upright acoustic bass.

The reason for this is simple. Krall is part of a subgenre of jazz musicians setting out to appeal to the mainstream of pop/rock listeners, not "purists" such as yourself (and she has succeeded in this regard.) The audience for natural sounding jazz has been very small for decades. If you want that kind of sound, you will have to stick to specialty labels.
Personally, I enjoy the "pop jazz" sound more than the purist stuff. When the bass is not boosted, it sounds weak to my ears.

 

[davidtwotrees]

My pics for SACD are the following. These are exciting musical performances combined with outstanding technical excellence in my view..........

Now that's what I come here for! As exciting as the new Onkyo TX-SR605 must be, I could care less about it.......but this thread represents all that I could ask for from this site re: music and its reproduction.

Jazz can sound discordant to a pop music listener just like Bartok can sound discordant to people who are used to listening to Mozart...... Jazz is based primarily on the blues scale and when you get accustomed to that scale, then everything in jazz sounds pretty normal and pretty - well - pretty. .......
Oscar Peterson died a couple of days ago to the sadness of the jazz world. He was, in my opinion, the greatest jazz pianist of all time. ..... I think you will find his riffs and chords very agreeable whether you are a jazz buff or not.

Sorry to hear that about Oscar. Thanks for your musician's perspective. Once again, my head is about to explode on this site hearing about how many hdmi inputs a receiver sports......and then a thread like this captures my interest. And J. Schmoe always tells it like it is........I like Diana Krall.......Popsicle Toes is one of my fav songs......smiles.........

 

[adam71]

My pics for SACD are the following. These are exciting musical performances combined with outstanding technical excellence in my view.

I would recommend the new cycle of Beethoven symphonies from the Minnesota Orchestra under Osmo Vanska, on BIS. These are exciting performances and the acoustic of Orchestra Hall captured to just about perfection. Symphonies 2 and 7 are yet to be released. The first disc was 4 and 5 BIS-SACD 1416.

i would give a strong recommendation to Vivaldi's La Stravaganza with Rachael Podger violin, with Arte Dei Suonatori on Channal Classics CCS SA 19503. The performances throw all caution to the winds. The acoustic of the Church of The High Catholic Seminary Goscikowo-Paradz, Poland is very believable.

For shear technical wizardry both on the part of the performer and the recording engineers this disc must just about be unsurpassed. It is Winfried Bonig playing the Klais organs of Cologne Cathedral. Motet 13245. Available form the Organ Historical Society. These are transcriptions of works by Bruckner, Liszt and Richard Strauss. This will challenge any system to the full. The recording is amazing in its realism. The sounds emanate from high in the distance and suspend in space. The dynamic of the full organ huge. The large bass divisions delivered with full authority. You will need powerful rear speakers as there is a large rear division.

A new release is the 3 SACD set of Sir Granville Bantock's Omar Khayyam conducted by Vernon Hnadley. Chandos CHSA 5051(3), must be on the list. This is the first recording of this interesting score. The engineering is beyond reproach.

Finally Elizabeth Cozart Fines remastering of her late Husband's recordings for Mercury Living Presence recorded in the fifties are a must. These recordings were made in three channel from three spaced omni Telefunken microphones and recorded to an optical recorder or a three channel Ampex tape recorder. These SACDs are three channel. Everyone of these can teach the youngsters a thing or two.

I would especially mention Paul Paray's account of the Berlioz Symphonie Fantastique, with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra. MSA 475 6622. These recordings have unbelievable perspective. Just listen to the definition on the bass drum in the fifth Mov. "Dream of a witches Sabbath". Everything is captured here, blazing brass the lot. Paul Paray had no peers in this repertory.

Just ordered these 2 from "Acoustic Sounds". Can't wait.

 

[skykeys]

Don't do vinyl. But to listen to top audiophiles who audition and review the top gear.........vinyl is it.........I don't have a vinyl collection and won't be starting one soon.
DVD Audio wasn't on the list. I only own like ten of them, but they are hands down, in multi channel listening mode, the best sound off of a six inch disc. Sacd's are still surviving and DVDA's are about done, so I guess sacd.

I listen to mainly 320kbps on my music server, unless it is a critcal first listen.

Hello David. I notice from your signature that you own a Denon player. Do you happen to know how I can get my Denon DVD-1920 player to recognize Hybrid SACD discs?

I recently configured it to multi-channel, and I have the 6 analog RCA jacks connected into my Yamaha receiver. It reads my pure - SACD only disc just fine, and produces a very nice 5.1 channel surround sound. Billy Joel's 52nd Street is the first SACD disc I got, and it sounds terrific in 5.1 SACD sound. It is an SACD only disc, so it doesn't have the Hybrid CD layer.

But I'm finding that, on my Hybrid discs, it only recognizes the CD layer and is not picking up the SACD layer, so it is only reproducing the standard two-channel stereo. Would you happen to know if this is a configuration issue?

Thank you - in advance.

Regards.

 

[Johnd]

Hello skykeys. Make certain that the control knob is not set to read the cd layer of the hybrid disc.