Amp Purchase(NAD......

[jostenmeat]

yeah, geeeez, nice choices!!!!!

I have a NAD amp that I think is just fantastic, but Sunfire and Outlaw might have even superior reputations.. well compared to NADs less than the Masters series anyways. Might as well get the least expensive, or what looks best, or best resale value, because they should all fit the bill pretty nicely! I also agree that a nice high-current amp can really open the auditory experience. Then again, I like to crank it sometimes, and have speakers that are more difficult than average to drive.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Like the alignment of all the planets?

But of course, at the same instant.

 

[mtrycrafts]

In the most part
Any well designed 4 or 6 ohm speaker is gonna be hard to drive , I would never recommend driving them with mass produced reciever . In 2 channel music listining . Something may smoke .

No, not in the most part either Some do, low impedace, low sensitivity.

No, the 4 Ohm and 6 ohms can be sensitive and some receivers will drive them very nicely, especially the 6 Ohms as that is not such a bad load.

 

[wire]

No, not in the most part either Some do, low impedace, low sensitivity.

No, the 4 Ohm and 6 ohms can be sensitive and some receivers will drive them very nicely, especially the 6 Ohms as that is not such a bad load.

Yeh , i dont disagree .

 

[mtrycrafts]

Yeh , i dont disagree .

Oh, great, I feel better now

 

[wire]

Oh, great, I feel better now

Well we where saying close to the same thing .

 

[Seth=L]

The Infinity Interludes aren't that demanding of a speaker system. The impedance probably rarely goes below 6 ohms, if that, and they are modest in efficiency. As an owner I can attest to them being a rather simple load, at least the IL10s.

If no physical parameters about the speakers where changed but the efficiency was increased the impedance would likely drop (a change in manufacturing, nothing that would happen with your speakers), if you wanted to maintain the same extension on the frequency response. The Interlude speaker systems are pretty well rounded, and any mid-level receiver will drive them with ease. The tweeters in the Interlude series are also not keen on tons of power, at least from what I have experianced with my own equipment.

My speakers are nothing special , but I like the sound They are the infinity IL60s(Sensitivity: 89dB) and IL30s(sensitivity 88 dB) for the rear and the center is a IL36(Sensitivity: 91dB).
Defiantly leaning toward the sunfire, just not sure whether the 7400 or the 7200

Right at the begining of your post here you said the magic words, "My speakers are nothing special". Well you need new speakers much more than you need amplification, in fact you won't notice hardly any difference in sonic performance at all by amplification upgrades. Speakers, room acoustics, and source material dictate SQ. The only time that extra power might make a difference is if you are running your system at reference levels during lengthy intense high level scenes in movie soundtracks. Having used amplifiers and receivers both with my Interludes I must say there hasn't been much of a difference. You owe it to yourself to move that budget from the amplifier to speakers and a subwoofer.

 

[cfrizz]

Once again, he doesn't NEED to have a reason to want to purchase separate amplification. It is perfectly acceptable for him to WANT it.

He will quickly discover that it makes a significant improvement to his system. He will have that 200wpc amplifier already there if/when he decides he WANTS to get new speakers. Which will drive his current and future speakers with ease. It will make it that much easier to upgrade from a receiver to a preprocessor which will give his system yet another overall improvement.

He can thoroughly enjoy his system knowing that he HAS all the power that the system demands, rather than having to worry about pushing his receiver beyond it's limits. He won't have to worry about hearing distortion from his speakers or the receiver shutting down in protect mode. It is better to have it & not need it rather than find out the hard way that it is needed & not have it!

He will discover the joy of being able to hear his music clearly even though the volume is very low.

Since it is not any of our money that he is spending, he should do as he wishes & from all indications he wishes to discover the wonderful world of separate amplification.

Stop trying to talk him out of it, since there are no rules saying that neither he nor anyone else should ever want to have it.

 

[Seth=L]

He will discover the joy of being able to hear his music clearly even though the volume is very low.

Where does this logic stem from?

I am simply saying that an upgrade in speakers is going to make a world of difference, where as adding amplification to speakers that aren't difficult to drive won't do much of anything to progress the SQ of the system, aside from at very high SPLs. At low volumes you will be hard pressed to notice a difference if one is even present.

I agree that if in the future, and he/she likely will upgrade, when new speakers are purchased it is a nice thing to fall back on. We just have different views on what should be done first. But if the OP is looking for a dramatic increase in fidelity right now then upgrading speakers and room acoustics are the way to go.

 

[cfrizz]

It has nothing to do with logic & everything to do with what my & other peoples ears have told them when adding a significantly more powerful amplifier into the mix.

It might be hard to tell the difference between say a 110 wpc reciever & a 125wpc amp. But there is no doubt about hearing the difference when you've got 200wpc or more!

If you're going to do it, then go big especially if you have a HT setup.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Seth=L]

It has nothing to do with logic & everything to do with what my & other peoples ears have told them when adding a significantly more powerful amplifier into the mix.

It might be hard to tell the difference between say a 110 wpc reciever & a 125wpc amp. But there is no doubt about hearing the difference when you've got 200wpc or more!

If you're going to do it, then go big especially if you have a HT setup.

We will just have to agree to disagree.

What I am asking is why would a higher powered amplifier sound better at lower levels than a receiver. It is reasonable that an amplifier would sound better once the receiver's limits are being pushed, but I don't understand why it would make any difference at lower levels of output.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Once again, he doesn't NEED to have a reason to want to purchase separate amplification. It is perfectly acceptable for him to WANT it.

But if I remember correctly, that was not your claim here but that 'ALL' speakers will benefit from an added amp to a receiver, or you disagree?

He will quickly discover that it makes a significant improvement to his system.

Sheer speculation on your part, to say the least; pure guesswork.

He will have that 200wpc amplifier already there if/when he decides he WANTS to get new speakers.

That may be an easy load or even easier and not benefit other than just imagined.

It will make it that much easier to upgrade from a receiver to a preprocessor which will give his system yet another overall improvement.

More guessing?

He will discover the joy of being able to hear his music clearly even though the volume is very low.

Now that is further speculation. You seem to do this a lot.

Stop trying to talk him out of it, since there are no rules saying that neither he nor anyone else should ever want to have it.

No one is trying to talk anyone out of anything, just inform people so they have better info to make decisions from. Or, that is forbidden? I bet the marketeers would like that, make a decision on less info.

 

[mtrycrafts]

... & everything to do with what my & other peoples ears have told them when adding a significantly more powerful amplifier into the mix.

How do you know that it was your ears and not your brains misleading, imagining things? That does happen at the worst times, you know, right? Or, your ears are infallible?

It might be hard to tell the difference between say a 110 wpc reciever & a 125wpc amp. But there is no doubt about hearing the difference when you've got 200wpc or more!

Another technical claim. Yet to be demonstrated by you?

We will just have to agree to disagree.

Yes, and that is also allowed.

 

[PENG]

I need some help!!!!!
I 'm in the market for a Multichannel amp. I 'm ready to make the move. I have a NAD Receiver that I love but I'm building a theater and I'm moving up to 7 channels. So not sure whether to go with the NAD Master series , Sunfire 7200 or the outlaw 7700 and maybe the B&K. I love the sound of the NAD receiver so thats what I'm looking for sound wise. I'm wondering if its worth it to try another company. The price range seems to be $2000-$3000. Would love some input. Thanks

You probably know that Sunfire uses the "Tracking Downconverter" technology that allows their amps to produce tons of power without using heavy power supplies and heat sinks.

Audio amplifiers are supposed to amplify the input signal linearly without any intentional distortion. Apparently there are audiophiles who believe low power amps should sound better than high power amp of the same design. Other than that, as others said, more power is better whether you need it or not.

On the other end, I also do not believe a high power amp could actually sound better than a equally high quality amp at low volume listening levels. I did read about such a claim by one professional reviewer (incidentally it was a review on a Sunfire amp) recently, but he was talking about "sense of ease at low levels" and he did qualify his statement by saying that it might be psychological. So if you feel better about a more conventional class AB high power amp, go for the Outlaw or the B&K, otherwise the Sunfire seems to offer the best power output and more environmentally friendly due to its high efficiency.

Whatever you end up choosing, you will likely get the same sound quality via your IL60 speakers. I have not listened to the IL60, but the lower end Infinity speakers sound pretty good to me. I just think that in all likelihood any of the amps you mentioned, would not be a limiting factor for speakers in the <$3,000 per pair range.

 

[PENG]

Let me re-quote this from a Stereo Review article:

"Some audiophiles interpret the "less is more" principle as meaning that a low-power amplifier will almost invariably sound better than a high-power amplifier of similar design. They point out that most of the time the power drawn from an amplifier is less than a watt, and it's that first watt that is critical to musical reproduction. "If the first watt doesn't sound right, why would you want 399 more of them?" Presumably, it's easier to get the first watt right if the amplifier has to produce only 40W, not 400W (or, in the case of certain single-ended-triode tube amps, 5W).

To an extent, this argument makes sense. With greater power comes greater circuit complexity and more output devices to be matched. Smaller can be qualitatively better; unfortunately, the majority of today's speakers require substantial power, and many audiophiles want to play their systems at levels outside the capabilities of low-power amplifiers................."

And the link to the article is

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/100rotel/


I also read about the claim that a high power amp such as one of those Sunfire, could sound better (more at ease) even at low listening levels.

So you see, there really are two camps! There is no use to debate. I see that even mtrycrafts agreed that we are allowed to agree to disagree.

It may be real, or only pycological, who knows? Over the years, I have had listened to many mid to high end receivers and amplifiers and the sales consultant always try their best to explain how different they sounded. I, and my friends or relatives who were there with me many times, could only smile back politely but could not acknowledge hearing the big differences they said existed. I am talking about A/B comparison experiences only. Otherwise I have to say I did hear those differences (even major sometimes).

 

[B3Nut]

In part, the perception that a lower-power amp (especially in the solid-state realm) sounds better than a higher-powered amplifier stems from the fact that early high-powered solid-state push-pull amplfiers (class B or sometimes even AB, though that topology should correct for this) were beset by crossover or notch distortion at low power levels (a "glitch" that occurs in the waveform when one of the halves of a push-pull amplifier "cuts off" before the other half begins conduction.) Nowadays any competently-designed power amplifier is not affected by this problem, but it was an issue in the early days of solid-state and the perception has to a degree stuck. Owners of very sensitive loudspeakers such as horn-loaded Klipsch units noticed these defects acutely. But again, this bugaboo was pretty well licked by the 70's, thus the plethora of solid-state amplifiers that are in most cases indistinguishable from one another in ABX tests.

These days, the "first watt" myth is precisely that, a myth. It sure sells a lot of 2nd-harmonic-distortion generato...*ahem* *cough* single-ended triode amps.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

 

[Don Smith]

Need to purchase an amplifier

Well I need some help I know nothing about this subject that is why I signed up.

I have a Bose surround sound speaker system (lifestyle something or other) My amplifier went BLAH and I need to purchase a new one, can somebody please suggest something before I make a mistake.

DON

 

[Seth=L]

Well I need some help I know nothing about this subject that is why I signed up.

I have a Bose surround sound speaker system (lifestyle something or other) My amplifier went BLAH and I need to purchase a new one, can somebody please suggest something before I make a mistake.

DON

What display and sources do you have. You can get by with a pretty inexpensive receiver, as a high end receiver will not affect the SQ of your Bose system. As far as feature loaded one of the best deals out there is the Onkyo TX-SR605. Good luck.

 

[Seth=L]

In part, the perception that a lower-power amp (especially in the solid-state realm) sounds better than a higher-powered amplifier stems from the fact that early high-powered solid-state push-pull amplfiers (class B or sometimes even AB, though that topology should correct for this) were beset by crossover or notch distortion at low power levels (a "glitch" that occurs in the waveform when one of the halves of a push-pull amplifier "cuts off" before the other half begins conduction.) Nowadays any competently-designed power amplifier is not affected by this problem, but it was an issue in the early days of solid-state and the perception has to a degree stuck. Owners of very sensitive loudspeakers such as horn-loaded Klipsch units noticed these defects acutely. But again, this bugaboo was pretty well licked by the 70's, thus the plethora of solid-state amplifiers that are in most cases indistinguishable from one another in ABX tests.

These days, the "first watt" myth is precisely that, a myth. It sure sells a lot of 2nd-harmonic-distortion generato...*ahem* *cough* single-ended triode amps.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

A great post.

 

[wire]

In part, the perception that a lower-power amp (especially in the solid-state realm) sounds better than a higher-powered amplifier stems from the fact that early high-powered solid-state push-pull amplfiers (class B or sometimes even AB, though that topology should correct for this) were beset by crossover or notch distortion at low power levels (a "glitch" that occurs in the waveform when one of the halves of a push-pull amplifier "cuts off" before the other half begins conduction.) Nowadays any competently-designed power amplifier is not affected by this problem, but it was an issue in the early days of solid-state and the perception has to a degree stuck. Owners of very sensitive loudspeakers such as horn-loaded Klipsch units noticed these defects acutely. But again, this bugaboo was pretty well licked by the 70's, thus the plethora of solid-state amplifiers that are in most cases indistinguishable from one another in ABX tests.

These days, the "first watt" myth is precisely that, a myth. It sure sells a lot of 2nd-harmonic-distortion generato...*ahem* *cough* single-ended triode amps.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

I have a Bryston 4b hooked up to Polk SDA's and the only Amp the polks have known since i bought them new ( many years ago ) . I took the bryston in for servicing ( before the 20 year warrenty was up ) . And hooked up 2 different amps , 1 a old Kenwood 2 channel ( 110 x 2 ) , That amp couldnt power up my speakers at all , No sound stage , no depth , no nothing , so i took another amp out of the closet a Sony n440 ( 4 channel ) , I tryed it and it had abit of a soundstage , but still couldnt listin to it , then tryed bridging it , hehe , what a joke , that baby was gonna fry ( the Polks are 6 ohm speakers and love the power ) .
At any listining level , my Polks didnt like the generic power amps , they just didnt have a soundstage and no Bass . Now with the Bryston 4b , the soundstage is unreal and when i push the Polks , they love it and sound awsome ( you should give a 4b a test run sometime , not a bad amp ) . I now have a Carver TFM35 ( 250 x 2 rms ) for a backup for the Bryston , It seems to match nicely with the Polks also .
I do want to get rid of the Kenwood , its useless to me . If you believe all Power amps sound the same at lower or any volume , buy it off me and AB to what ever you have .