Saudi court INCREASES punishment of Rape Victim

highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
I will not deny that the "might makes right" system is operative "over there". But I cannot concede that it is right, or proper, for humans to live that way.
Nor should you,its a weak man that refuses to acknowlege or condem bad behavior in fear of stepping on others toe's or being non pc.

Great post btw.
 
Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
This copied sentence is without a doubt, in my mind, the single most well thought out sentence ive ever read on the internet,anywhere.
Such high praise, indeed! I am honored.

Tomorrow's example of animals struggling to survive has been running through my head for a few days now. I wasn't sure how to express it, but I'm sure that people with a developed faculty of reason should not be living like animals, preying on weaker humans by force and brutality.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
As reasoning creatures, we have the ability to analyze others' actions, individually, collectively or culturally. We also have the ability to pass judgement on these actions. While you may set your threshold of acceptable conduct at might makes right, the basest of animal instincts, I prefer to hold humans to a higher standard, befitting of a reasoning species. Just because we cannot alter or affect the actions of others, does not mean that we have to accept it as befitting a rational human existence. We can hold up the moral/rational bar and measure others to that standard even if they perpetually fail. If we fail to hold this standard and the bar falls to the lowest common level, then our reason has failed us and we will live as animals ourselves.
[Warning...philosophy below] :eek:

Dave, the phenomenon involved is the cultural self-definition that results from the combining of individuals into the first community/state and all states thereafter. The fact is, we ARE reasoning creatures that have, after thousands of years, more and more narrowly defined our 'reasoned' focus into what you see around you today. Why is it that we still have such immoral collective behavior?

I think we all agree here with your sentiments of what should exist as universal laws/morals/values by which to live. But reasoning need not apply. You want to apply reasoning based upon your values. That's exactly what the Saudis are doing in this rape case, but are applying reasoning to their values. The fact is that you wish for a utopian dream. Why, now, as the most advanced specimens of reasoned humanity, is there such inhumanity to man in all countries, ours included? When you answer that question and you'll see why many here have adopted a give-a-crap-less about the stone age states of the middle east...or how they treat their members. Here's one crass truth ... to get those states to behave reasonably under your value system, we'll have to kill them, defeat them in war, and then apply OUR standards upon them to get what you want...more western values/treatment. And still, after that, within our own state boundaries, there will yet be oppressed people.

Having developed my personal political attitudes in the '60's, I thoroughly agree that there is much to be strived for to find equality of treatment and peace in the world. Having lived too many years, I've also become resigned to the depressing reality of the matter. Even after (or before) accepting the notion that we are highly developed, intelligent individuals ... humans are animals.

I've been given one negative chiclet in my time here. The angry individual (who evidently had no idea what the era was all about), amidst his diatribe, said one thing that is so true..."The 60's are so over man." See?! Self-defined behavior. ;) LOL.
 
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Davemcc

Davemcc

Audioholic Spartan
For myself, I have to set a personal objective standard from which to judge the actions of others. Actually, its inherent in the act. One has to have a standard by which to judge. I can't lower my standard to the "give a crap less" level. I may be powerless to stop them, but I cannot condone the torture of a person for some trivial, victimless faux pas. It is wrong regardless of their religion. It is wrong regardless of the power of their police and judges. It is wrong over here. It is wrong over there. It is just plain wrong by any objective standard.

I have to disagree with one of your points, that they are applying reason to their values. (I'm going to start a firestorm that I will not continue to debate, but have to say it anyway.) Their laws that allow them to torture this rape victim are religious based laws applied by the state. I would argue that they are not applying reason at all. The first pre-requisite of religion is to discard reason. To believe is to accept on faith without proof, evidence or substance. Faith is the absence of reason and once reason is discarded, people may be convinced to do just about any terrible thing imaginable, like torture a young rape victim. So no, they are applying their values, but they are not applying reason to their values.
 
majorloser

majorloser

Moderator
Humans are born and will eventually die. Those are the only things that can be guaranteed. We have no "rights". What we want to accept as "inalienable rights" are what have been granted to us by some form of government or our peers. It is our choice to accept them and fight to maintain them. If you choose to be free, then you must fight to maintain that freedom. In some cases it's a losing battle since somebody is always more powerful.

If you should wish to press your values on others, then you had better to be willing to do so by force. Any form of hierachy in human society is maintained by consequences. There is some form of punishment for an undesirable action.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
The innate violence of Darwinian evolution, in which better-adapted organisms replace those less able to cope.
 
M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Here's the latest from kingdom of Saud, that bastion of personal freedom

Now they claim she's an adulteress which, if I read correctly, is what a woman who sits in a car with a man is considered.

http://www6.comcast.net/news/articles/world/middleeast/2007/11/20/Saudi.Rape/?cvqh=ht_saudi

If nothing else, this incident does seem to be having an effect on the locals.

Food for thought: Here's an article on Shahria law in general:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2005/08/top_ten_reasons_why_sharia_is.html

OK, now who here wants to live under this? Raise your hands... higher...

Unfortunately, we really can't do too much to affect how other countries run their business. We always seem to get out faces slapped when we do try. But, we must be vigilant that our country doesn't get diluted to the point that, without our knowing it, we become one ofthem. Little by little, like putting a frog in cool water and slowly bring it to a boil, outsiders seem to be slowly chipping away at the rights and freedoms that make America America and won't be satisfied until it's not America anymore.

And, here's a more chilling example where it almost hit home. Can you say "Nose of the camel". kiddies?
http://righttruth.typepad.com/right_truth/2007/03/no_sharia_law_f.html

Fortunately, cooler heads seem to have prevailed, for now at least.
http://www.danielpipes.org/article/4058

As this last weekend pointed out, we've gota lotto be Thankful for. Let's keep it that way. Keep your eyes and ears open...
 
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highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
Markw,whats really sad in the link about the cab drivers is that the local government WILL CAVE IN & give them their way,i'd put big money on it,just another case of our laws being changed daily,to protect the rights of visitors that dont like our country the way they found it when they arrived.

Go to their country & try that s#!t & see what happens,a guy would end up on trial for his life after being charged with blasphemy,heresy or some other nonsense,thats even if they formerly charged him before they hacked off his head in the town square in front a crowd of cheering malnurited animals.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Another great story: A Briton, teaching in the Sudan is under arrest after she and the class voted on names for a teddy bear. They named the teddy bear "Muhammad".

Quoted from the article: A British primary school teacher arrested in Sudan faces up to 40 lashes for blasphemy after letting her class of 7-year-olds name a teddy bear Muhammad.

These rabid apostates of Islam are no better than savages with access to technology.
 
stratman

stratman

Audioholic Ninja
Another great story: A Briton, teaching in the Sudan is under arrest after she and the class voted on names for a teddy bear. They named the teddy bear "Muhammad".

Quoted from the article: A British primary school teacher arrested in Sudan faces up to 40 lashes for blasphemy after letting her class of 7-year-olds name a teddy bear Muhammad.

These rabid apostates of Islam are no better than savages with access to technology.
In their eyes they are not apostates, as they follow sharia law. To them anyone doing less is an apostate, they're what would be considered fundamentalists, they follow the fundamental edicts of the Koran, they take the traditional view, where as moderates take a liberal and in "today-speak" a politically correct view, ecumenical in perspestive and not exclusive in thought or practice.
 

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