Will Axiom M60s work?

[Brian_the_King]

Ok, I can't really stay on any longer [family coming over], but I'm really liking your idea. I'll go mull things over, and be back later with more questions I'm sure

Thanks again.

 

[Gimpy Ric]

Dual sub 4 you!

If you can modify your 250's, and just want two bad to the bone subs, look no further than Emotiva They have on their front page the new Emotiva DRS-1 Subwoofer/Amplifier System. Check it out. Your parents and neighbors will be screaming "Turn it down!"

Drivers

* 2) 12” woofers
* 2) Critically damped sealed sub-woofer enclosures with double walled baffles and extensive internal bracing
* Composite fiber reinforced cones for light weight, rigid and low resonance
* Asymmetrical compressed foam surround to reduce edge resonance
* Proprietary high X-Max motor structure with patented voice coil cooling
* Flat progressive rate spider with sub-structure venting
* High temperature aluminum former
* Precision cast aluminum frame

DSA-1 amplifier

* Super efficient 600 wrms/ 800 watt peak class D amplifier stage
* 24 Bit DSP front end with digital based dynamics processing
* Proprietary EMOQ Auto Room correction
* Dual Mode operation (Movie and Music)
* Digital variable low pass crossover with selectable 12 or 24db/octave slopes
* Digital variable “True Phase” control (0-360)
* Manual/ Auto sensing / 12 volt trigger
* Movie mode trigger

Additional Notes

* Calibration Microphone included
* Milled terminal cup with integrated milled aluminum plate
* 6mm milled aluminum front baffle plate
* Magnetically mounted low diffraction grill
* Non-reflective black satin lacquer finish
* Frequency response: 20-200hz +/-2db

Available January 08 $999.00 for amp and subs!

 

[WmAx]

Correction: The pictures of the modified level 2 cabinet example are Primus 160, not Primus 150.

-Chris

 

[Haoleb]

I would not recommend buying the Axioms as an upgrade. Axiom speakers are not evidenced to me to be of any special value. They measure poorly compared to other available speakers in the same price range. I am not even sure if they would be as good as the Primus 250 speakers(the primus probably has a higher quality midrange driver, a smoother response curve and better designed crossover and probably has superior off axis response). If you are looking to economize and still yield large improvement, I can specify physical modifications to that speaker that you can perform to substantially improve it's clarity/resolution, and in addition, add stereo subwoofers(one somewhat near each main speaker) with an active crossover used to split to the speakers/subs at about 80-90Hz. If you really want new speakers that are a substantial upgrade, save up a bit more, and go for something like a B&W CM7. But I would not be surprised if this was not as good as the modified Primus 250s with stereo subwoofers.

-Chris

Would you like to explain a little more your first paragraph or so? I really am quite surprised by those statements. While I may seem to be biased towards Axiom as an owner, Even if I werent I havent seen credible evidence to suggest what you have stated about them.

 

[WmAx]

Would you like to explain a little more your first paragraph or so? I really am quite surprised by those statements. While I may seem to be biased towards Axiom as an owner, Even if I werent I havent seen credible evidence to suggest what you have stated about them.

You only need refer to the Soundstage NRC lab measurements of various Axiom speakers to witness the relatively rough response curves. Combine these average driver/crossover combinations with the standard resonant cabinets and you have nothing of any special value. The single aspect of Axiom speakers that appears to be better compared to some others, is the somewhat smoother off axis curves. Many of the original Primus systems, however, have exceptionally smooth response curves, and considering the simple crossovers used in Primus units, this indicated superbly well controlled drivers. My conclusion is further supported by my own measurements of various Primus drivers. In fact, I will be using Primus 360 4" midranges in a new project I am doing, that will cost several thousand dollars to complete. That is how confident I am in the quality of this particular midrange unit after analysis.

-Chris

 

[Brian_the_King]

wmax, I have drawn a picture to help me figure out how your idea would work...

Have I got it right?

 

[WmAx]

wmax, I have drawn a picture to help me figure out how your idea would work...

Have I got it right?

Yes, that looks correct.

-Chris

 

[Haoleb]

So basically what your saying is that any speaker with "average driver/crossover combinations" with the "standard resonant cabinets" is a peice of crap compared to a severely modified Infinity speaker.

I really do not see how a cabinet designed to solve problems that occur with speaker cabinets in a unique manner is somehow standard compared to just about every other speaker manufacturer out there which simply builds what i actually would consider a standard cabinet and then chooses to either put a bandaid on them in the form of internal bracing which most of the time is barely adequete in the price range we are talking about.

From what I gather most of what you are saying is just a personal opinion (nothing wrong with that) but its not even based on actual listening to the speakers in question. How can you say that the speakers he currently has probably has a better midrange driver and probably better off axis response. Without a direct comparison. As anyone who has designed speakers or heard many speakers in their expeirence which I would imagine you do and you have, would know is the quality of the parts of something doesnt make a peice automatically good. Its the sum of those parts and the way its put together. You could get the most expensive drivers in the world and put them in a cabinet with some kind of superconductor internal wiring and a finish made from bald eagle skins. Doesnt mean its going to sound any good.

 

[WmAx]

So basically what your saying is that any speaker with "average driver/crossover combinations" with the "standard resonant cabinets" is a peice of crap compared to a severely modified Infinity speaker.

Certain speakers have unusually good drivers and crossovers that are rare in a given price range. Most of the Infinity Primus original line (xx0 series) comes under this flag.

I really do not see how a cabinet designed to solve problems that occur with speaker cabinets in a unique manner is somehow standard compared to just about every other speaker manufacturer out there which simply builds what i actually would consider a standard cabinet and then chooses to either put a bandaid on them in the form of internal bracing which most of the time is barely adequete in the price range we are talking about.

I do not understand. Please re-phrase.

How can you say that the speakers he currently has probably has a better midrange driver and probably better off axis response. Without a direct comparison. As anyone who has designed speakers or heard many speakers in their experience which I would imagine you do and you have, would know is the quality of the parts of something doesn't make a piece automatically good. Its the sum of those parts and the way its put together. You could get the most expensive drivers in the world and put them in a cabinet with some kind of superconductor internal wiring and a finish made from bald eagle skins. Doesn't mean its going to sound any good.

Most of the original Primus line has ridiculously good drivers and response plots. I have not measured the model 250, but based on many others, I assume it is designed with the same common characteristics. The Axioms I have had the opportunity to observe measurements of, on the other hand, were nothing more than average. Relatively rough response with relatively high linear distortion. In the case of many of the original Primus units, the cabinet is primary problem holding them back from better sound quality. Of course you can not expect to get equal enhancement from any speaker by improving a specific isolated problem -- but in this case of the Primus 250 -- the cabinet is likely the single biggest problem.

-Chris

 

[Haoleb]

Axiom has taken a different approach to their cabinets which is rather unique among most of the other speakers in this pricerange. To say they are "standard resonant cabinets" is a bit far fetched considering that when compared to most of what the competition has to offer they just arent. Keep in mind I am not talking about them being compared to your highly damped and braced cabinets in your modifications, because virtually all speakers would have to be considered "standard resonant cabinets" in comparison.

While there may not be anything that makes Axiom speakers super special in comparison to other speakers in general. I think most people who own them, or have heard them can only agree that they are among some of the best in their respective price ranges which certainly may also be true for the Infinity line. I cannot say either way because I havent heard them myself. The main problem I have with your original statement is that you are talking about something that is based on virtually nothing that correlates to how the speakers actually perform.

 

[WmAx]

The main problem I have with your original statement is that you are talking about something that is based on virtually nothing that correlates to how the speakers actually perform.

I referred to a source (Soundstage) of accurate measurements of several Axiom speakers. Stereophile has several Primus speakers in their measurement database. Look for the Primus 150 and Primus 360. The Axioms have rough/ragged responses indicating poor driver behaviour as compared to the lower cost Infinity units, which apparently have substantially better drivers.

-Chris

 

[the grunt]

I referred to a source (Soundstage) of accurate measurements of several Axiom speakers. Stereophile has several Primus speakers in their measurement database. Look for the Primus 150 and Primus 360. The Axioms have rough/ragged responses indicating poor driver behaviour as compared to the lower cost Infinity units, which apparently have substantially better drivers.

-Chris

I looked at what I think are a couple of the response graphs that you refer to. At Soundstage I looked at the measurement of the Axiom M80v2 and at Stereophile I looked at the Primus 150 and 360. You are right that the Axiom graph looks ragged compared to the Primus. I also looked at graphs of other speakers on both sites and noticed a trend. All the graphs at Soundstage looked ragged and all the graphs at Stereophile looked smother by comparison.

I’m guessing it has to do with Stereophile plotting a frequency response averaged across 30 degrees horizontal while the Soundstage graph is showing three distinct plots, on axis and 15 and 30 degrees off axis. I imagine if those were averaged the Axiom graph would also look smother.

 

[Brian_the_King]

I appreciate the continuing discussion, grunt and haoleb; the more I know/see from both sides, the more it helps me decide what I want to do before possibly destroying my speakers

wmax; I still have not decided, if I do go forward with this, which method to perform. Either way though, I don't know how I would go about taking the cabinet apart. How does one accomplish this?

 

[WmAx]

I looked at what I think are a couple of the response graphs that you refer to. At Soundstage I looked at the measurement of the Axiom M80v2 and at Stereophile I looked at the Primus 150 and 360. You are right that the Axiom graph looks ragged compared to the Primus. I also looked at graphs of other speakers on both sites and noticed a trend. All the graphs at Soundstage looked ragged and all the graphs at Stereophile looked smother by comparison.

I’m guessing it has to do with Stereophile plotting a frequency response averaged across 30 degrees horizontal while the Soundstage graph is showing three distinct plots, on axis and 15 and 30 degrees off axis. I imagine if those were averaged the Axiom graph would also look smother.

The trend I am referring to is not that of the fine ragged features -- Stereophile also uses some average smoothing. The window average also performs some smoothing(you can refer to the 1st top trace in the waterfall plot if you want to see the 0 degree single measurement on Stereophile). The issues I am pointing out are the large/gross overall variations in response, which are not the result of smoothing. Soundstage has the same window measurement. Refer to the -/+ 15 degree average about 3 or 4 graphs down on Soundstage measurements. This is the same 30 degree window Stereophile uses. This window does not remove the gross errors as found on most of the Axiom measured examples.

And you can find smooth responses at Soundstage as well, though it seems that Stereophile overall, measures better grade speakers, where as Soundstage, overall, measures more economical speakers. But you can find very smooth plots in Soundstage when they measure some speakers. Refer to the Ascend 170 measurements, for example. For an example of a poorly measuring speaker(not all smooth) on Stereophile, refer to the Paradigm Atom Monitor v.5.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

I appreciate the continuing discussion, grunt and haoleb; the more I know/see from both sides, the more it helps me decide what I want to do before possibly destroying my speakers

wmax; I still have not decided, if I do go forward with this, which method to perform. Either way though, I don't know how I would go about taking the cabinet apart. How does one accomplish this?

I specified how to do this in the long post.

-Chris

 

[the grunt]

@ Brian_the_King

I want to be clear that I’m not trying to take sides in your decision. On the contrary if I had the time I would love to not only modify but build my own speakers to suit my tastes. I just didn’t agree with the statement about the graphs and wanted some clarification. However, I am intrigued by the stereo subwoofer idea.

I know your choices are limited but you really should try to listen to as many different speakers as you can. You may decide you prefer speakers with a particular sound that is not necessarily neutral.

Also, if I have the choice over DIY and purchase I always keep in mind that the one think I can’t ever buy more of is time. So when it comes to DIY I the time it will take vs cost savings and knowledge/experience gained factors heavily in my decision. So unless tweaking audio equipment (a fine hobby or profession) is part of your goal then keep in mind what someone’s signature says “Enjoy the music, not the equipment”

@ WmAx

Have you compared the stereo subwoofer design with dual subwoofers placed to help balance room resonances. I realize results are very room dependent but the idea of separate subwoofers for each speaker has interested me for some time.

 

[avaserfi]

I know your choices are limited but you really should try to listen to as many different speakers as you can. You may decide you prefer speakers with a particular sound that is not necessarily neutral.

If one does not enjoy the sound of a completely neutral speaker it is still the best starting point as adding a quality and still relatively inexpensive digital equalizer to the line will allow for nearly any system response desired with proper use.

Have you compared the stereo subwoofer design with dual subwoofers placed to help balance room resonances. I realize results are very room dependent but the idea of separate subwoofers for each speaker has interested me for some time.

I think you are missing the point of having stereo subwoofers in this application. If the level two modification is made (which is the only one I would personally consider, but I am in the process of designing some speakers considered over the top by nearly every [uninformed] DIYer) then there will be substantially less volume within the cabinet for the driver this will cause the usable frequency range of the tower to likely be between 80-100Hz thus the stereo subwoofers will need to be placed within three feet or so of the towers due to localizability of the frequencies that will be required of the subwoofers for proper frequency response.

 

[3db]

Have you considerd auditioning Totem?

Hey all.

My system is below, but if you'd rather not wade through pics and everything here is the condensed version;

Infinity Primus 250 [$400 new, when still in production]
Denon DRA 395 [80Wx2 w/ 0.08% THD @ 8Ω 20Hz-20KHz] [$350 new, when still in production]
Denon DCM 280 [$200 new, when still in production]

I hope to replace my Infinitys with a pair of Axiom Audio M60 V2s soon [especially with this free gloss upgrade going on], and I just wanted to ask if anyone thinks the speakers will be 'too good'/'revealing' for the rest of my system.

I'm not sure how far the Denon gear will take me, and I know its not the same in every situation, but I want a better idea. What do you think proper amount to spend on speakers is, given the other stuff in my system? Are the M60's just right? Could I spend more and not be 'bottlenecked'? Should I spend less?

Lend me your thoughts.

http://www.totemacoustic.com/us/products/columns/sttaf/specifications/

http://www.totemacoustic.com/us/products/columns/hawk/specifications/

http://www.totemacoustic.com/us/products/columns/forest/specifications/

 

[Brian_the_King]

wmax, I thought I would take apart one of the speakers before deciding which level of modification to do [leaning toward 1], but I ran into a problem; It seems to me that the drivers are soldered to the xover. This is only really a 'problem' because I do not trust my soldering skills

Is there another way to remove the drivers/xover? Or should I get practicing with the old soldering iron?

 

[Haoleb]

those are just quick disconnect terminals on the speakers. You just pull them straight off. You'll probably need some needle nose pliers and rock them side to side a bit while you pull them off. The soldered part is part of the speaker itself. Also, That is not the crossover.

You want to pull on the part that has the clear plastic cover.