Pro Power Amplifiers vs HT Power Amplifiers.

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Bluesmoke

Audioholic Chief
I've noticed that Pro amps like Crown, Mackie, Behringer etc.. seem to have all the bells and whistles of your typical HT 2channel amplifier. But, the pro amps tend to have a lot more power for the $$$.

Is the sound quality much better in the HT amps than Pro amps? Just curious.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Not in most cases. There are pro amps that use Class D amplification that may not sound as good as typical Class A/B amplifiers. There are still plenty of Class A/B pro amps though.:)
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
actually, there are no bells and whistles on the pro amps (unless you like the crown amps with EQ)

the pro amps have serious watts:dollar ratios ... im thinking the home amps have more budget invested in "looks" features and connections ... while the pro amps have most of their budget in extracting the most wattage from small budget.
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
The major difference in price isn't in the products but in the market place. The pro audio consumers aren't willing to pay as much as audiophiles so the units are priced lower than home audio amps for a given level of performance. I've used pro audio amps for home theater. I recommend the smaller wattage models because they run cooler and either don't have or make less use of cooling fans. Generally, the pro audio amps have strong, rugged power suppliess and handle the job just fine. Some of them are pretty ugly so you may want to hide them away somewhere in the furniture.

Don't confuse the monitoring or sound reinforcement amps with musical instrument amps. The musical instrument amps won't work well for home audio. The others work great. The Crown D75A is a classic monitoring amp that is as clean as a whistle. I use one in my own project studio for mixing and mastering. QSC makes some very nice power amps that perform with the best of them. I used to use a stack of QSC USA 100 power amps in my pre-receiver days of home theater. They were strong, heavy, clean and didn't need cooling fans.
 
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B

Bluesmoke

Audioholic Chief
The major difference in price isn't in the products but in the market place. The pro audio consumers aren't willing to pay as much as audiophiles so the units are priced lower than home audio amps for a given level of performance. I've used pro audio amps for home theater. I recommend the smaller wattage models because they run cooler and either don't have or make less use of cooling fans. Generally, the pro audio amps have strong, rugged power suppliess and handle the job just fine. Some of them are pretty ugly so you may want to hide them away somewhere in the furniture.

Don't confuse the monitoring or sound reinforcement amps with musical instrument amps. The musical instrument amps won't work well for home audio. The others work great. The Crown D75A is a classic monitoring amp that is as clean as a whistle. I use one in my own project studio for mixing and mastering. QSC makes some very nice power amps that perform with the best of them. I used to use a stack of QSC USA 100 power amps in my pre-receiver days of home theater. They were strong, heavy, clean and didn't need cooling fans.
Don't worry about musical instrument amps. I've got a 100w Mesa Dual Rectifier that shatters windows with bass. :D
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
I've noticed that Pro amps like Crown, Mackie, Behringer etc.. seem to have all the bells and whistles of your typical HT 2channel amplifier. But, the pro amps tend to have a lot more power for the $$$.

Is the sound quality much better in the HT amps than Pro amps? Just curious.
I like pro-sound amps for both music and home theater, but they especially rock out for home theater. Hands down, no comparison. The power you get from them brings your speakers alive, makes you system sound like a movie theater instead of a home theater. It's hard to describe, but I doubt you'll be disappointed when you try it out.

I'm sure the audiophiles will disagree, but I plan on switching to basically all pro-sound equipment as my consumer stuff dies off. Most of the receivers out there are unpowered for the dollar, and when you connect a pro-sound amp and have the juice at your finger tips, your speakers come alive. My Dynaudio Audience 72s sound MUCH better now that they are powered by a Crown XLS402 than they did when they were powered by a Pioneer Elite THX-Certified job that only make 100watts per channel. My Crown XLS402 delivers 450W at 4ohms (300W at 8ohms), sounds better in my opinion, and is built like a tank. I paid 330USD for it in the end (390 in the store, and Crown as a 60 dollar rebate, still going fyi!!!), I couldn't imagine what I would pay for this if I tried buying consumer stuff.

Pro-sound amps can be expensive too, but there are affordable, good ones, like the XLS series from Crown.

http://www.crownaudio.com/amp_htm/xls.htm
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/425472-REG/Crown_Audio_XLS402D_XLS_402D_Two.html


Makie is great too, and makes one at the same exact price as Crown (but no rebates going now from them):

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/485507-REG/Mackie_FR1400_FR_1400_Rack_Mount.html


Here is a good place to shop around:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/1816/Amplifiers_Power_Amplifiers.html


Avoid Behringer, that is junk. They used to be great, but got bought out a while back and it all went downhill. They blow up, the parts are hard to get, and therefore they have lost just about all their respect with industry. They have a following because of how inexpensive their products are, but most people soon realize they should have spent a little more for a better brand.
 
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Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Avoid Behringer, that is junk. They used to be great, but got bought out a while back and it all went downhill. They blow up, the parts are hard to get, and therefore they have lost just about all their respect with industry. They have a following because of how inexpensive their products are, but most people soon realize they should have spent a little more for a better brand.
I haven't heard of these problems.:confused:
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
I haven't heard of these problems.:confused:
I should be more careful not to knock products forum members might own.

Behringers bad repretation is in the pro-sound industry. Their amps are inexpensive, but don't hold up to nightclub, live-sound and other proaudio applications. They are, however, popular in gyms and churches that are on a budget (although my gym switched to Crown amps and JBL 15s). They might be alright for certain applications, but I can't recommend them to anyone.

It's really a non-issue because for 100-200 bucks more you can get into an entry level Crown or Mackie that will out perform it without breaking a sweat. QSC, what fmw recommended, has some great stuff for the money too.
 
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Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
I should be more careful not to knock products forum members might own.
Don't get me wrong, I am not an owner of Behringer's products. But I have been around their products for a while and feel as though they are a good value product overall. The Crowns and QSCs probably have more rugid construction with better parts, and may indeed perform better.

I just hadn't heard about reliability issues with Behringer's products is all.:)
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
Don't get me wrong, I am not an owner of Behringer's products. But I have been around their products for a while and feel as though they are a good value product overall. The Crowns and QSCs probably have more rugid construction with better parts, and may indeed perform better.

I just hadn't heard about reliability issues with Behringer's products is all.:)

Ah. In the home theater circles, most people aren't working them hard enough to have the reliability problems arise. They are also so pleased with the price that other stuff gets overlooked (like sound quality). When you get into using them for night-club, movie-theater or live-sound applications, which will run them much harder, the issues arise more dramatically. I assume that anyone who is considering a pro-sound amp, is probably someone who likes their movies and music loud. It's better to spend a bit extra and get something that'll last you a long time. A decent pro-sound amp lasts a VERY long time.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Ah. In the home theater circles, most people aren't working them hard enough to have the reliability problems arise. They are also so pleased with the price that other stuff gets overlooked (like sound quality). When you get into using them for night-club, movie-theater or live-sound applications, which will run them much harder, the issues arise more dramatically. I assume that anyone who is considering a pro-sound amp, is probably someone who likes their movies and music loud. It's better to spend a bit extra and get something that'll last you a long time. A decent pro-sound amp lasts a VERY long time.
Yeah, I just let go an old Yamaha pro amp. Thing was huge. It had convection heatsinks on the sides, huge torroidal power supply, and massive resevior capacitors (the size of redbull cans and that is no bull:D). Kind of wish I still had it.

I had that amp for less than 2 days.
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
You might like this thread out on DJ Forums:

http://www.djforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103459

That's a pretty good list and there are some intelligent posts on there (even though there are lots of kids also). Keep in mind, these are DJs, so their opinions come from using these brands in their applications. I agree with where they placed most stuff. Behringer works, but, as a few said on there: "to be safe, stay away." If that's all one can afford, it might be the right choice.
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
Yeah, I just let go an old Yamaha pro amp. Thing was huge. It had convection heatsinks on the sides, huge torroidal power supply, and massive resevior capacitors (the size of redbull cans and that is no bull:D). Kind of wish I still had it.

I had that amp for less than 2 days.
Yeah, haha. awesome!

Now days, a lot of pro-amps use variable speed fans for convection cooling. Even when I have the volume cranked up on my Crown, the air coming out is cool (something I can't say for most home theater amps and recievers). The downside is that the you can hear the fan at low volumes. So, unless you can put it in another room, it's not going to be great for classical music lovers and such. Also, the power and signal lights blinking might be annoying for some if they put their amps near the TV they are watching. Just something to keep in mind for anyone considering using a pro-amp.
 
Seth=L

Seth=L

Audioholic Overlord
Yeah, haha. awesome!

Now days, a lot of pro-amps use variable speed fans for convection cooling. Even when I have the volume cranked up on my Crown, the air coming out is cool (something I can't say for most home theater amps and recievers). The downside is that the you can hear the fan at low volumes. So, unless you can put it in another room, it's not going to be great for classical music lovers and such. Also, the power and signal lights blinking might be annoying for some if they put their amps near the TV they are watching. Just something to keep in mind for anyone considering using a pro-amp.
The Yamaha didn't have fans, but then again it just didn't get hot. Even after driving inefficient speakers for quite a while at high levels it was still barely even warm.:)
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
They put Bose in the budget, but "ok" list.:rolleyes:
They aren't talking about the consumer stuff. There are some posts in there about it. Bose is overpriced, so I think they just put it in the middle because they didn't want to call it good but also didn't want to call it junk. Their 802s are actually pretty durable, you see guitarists using them a lot. Budget doesn't apply to bose though, so, it's kind of a black sheep of the list.

http://pssl.com/BOSE-802-GOLD-SYSTEM-III
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
The Yamaha didn't have fans, but then again it just didn't get hot. Even after driving inefficient speakers for quite a while at high levels it was still barely even warm.:)
Some nice big heat sinks go a long way. ;) Driving home audio speakers with a nice pro-audio amp is like driving a skateboard with a turbine.

Home theater stuff always seems to run pretty hot, especially these new recievers. Maybe it's not a problem, but, damn. My Denon is no exception.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
I used to own the Crown DC-300A, DC-150A, IC-150(pre-amp). Now mind you this stuff was built in the mid-late 70's bought them in 90 while still in high school (thanks for telling me to get the Crown Denny!):

All channels where still balanced, the 300A didn't start clipping until 191 watts/channel, the 150 at 90 watts/channel. When the pots on the IC-150 started to make noise I called Crown. At 1st they said it was an old piece. Then a tech called me back. Asked me to send it in with return postage. They rebuilt the entire thing and charged me $40.

I gave the Crown setup to a buddy as a wedding gift in 98'. He is still using it to this day.

Damn that 300A just simply POUNDED. Thing was a brute.

The bigger underlying issue with Behringer I have heard about is that Uli Behringer would reverse engineer another manufacturers product, produce it cheap as hell and flood the market. It's hearsay/rumor. But enough industry people feel sour towards them so...
 
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F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Many of the sound reinforcement amps have some rolloff on both the high and low ends of the sonic spectrum since they don't normally reproduce much outside of 40hz to 11 khz. or so and sometimes won't extend much beyond that. That probably isn't an issue at all with movie soundtracks but it might insense audiophiles who want the amp to amplify things they can't hear and things that don't exist on their recordings.

If you want serious audiophile type sound quality get the Crown D75 - crown's best monitoring amp. It is a high current 75 wpc amp that is more powerful than anything in a name brand receiver. Flat as a pancake from 20 to 20K. I use one for mixing and mastering in my project studio. It drives my home made Vifa driven monitors. It is as clean as a whistle.

I had a pair of the old QSC USA 100 amps for many years in my home theater. These were also excellent - heavy and rugged. 100 wpc (RMS, not peak like the receivers rate it) I'm not sure which current model replaced them but they should certainly have something that is just fine for home theater applications. The USA 100 was pretty popular many years ago with the home theater crowd.

Either of these amps will blow you out of the room without working up a sweat. Either would be overkill for the listening levels I use.
 
C

cbraver

Audioholic Chief
I used to own the Crown DC-300A, DC-150A, IC-150(pre-amp). Now mind you this stuff was built in the mid-late 70's bought them in 90 while still in high school (thanks for telling me to get the Crown Denny!):

All channels where still balanced, the 300A didn't start clipping until 191 watts/channel, the 150 at 90 watts/channel. When the pots on the IC-150 started to make noise I called Crown. At 1st they said it was an old piece. Then a tech called me back. Asked me to send it in with return postage. They rebuilt the entire thing and charged me $40.

I gave the Crown setup to a buddy as a wedding gift in 98'. He is still using it to this day.

Damn that 300A just simply POUNDED. Thing was a brute.

The bigger underlying issue with Behringer I have heard about is that Uli Behringer would reverse engineer another manufacturers product, produce it cheap as hell and flood the market. It's hearsay/rumor. But enough industry people feel sour towards them so...
Yeah, I've heard a buncha stories like that... people sending back old amps to Crown and they repair them for cheap. They have a whole tech department that is just for customer support, and they don't seem to care how big or small of a customer you are. They are also really helpful with selecting an amp; If you call them up and give them your speaker specs, application, preferences and budget, they'll really help you narrow down the right product.

As far as Behringer, I've heard that too, but I'm not sure how valid it is. The lawsuit Mackie filed was settled out of court. The settlement amount I don't know, I've heard all kinds of numbers. Just last year they were fined by the FCC for a million... something about radiation, haha.


Many of the sound reinforcement amps have some rolloff on both the high and low ends of the sonic spectrum since they don't normally reproduce much outside of 40hz to 11 khz. or so and sometimes won't extend much beyond that. That probably isn't an issue at all with movie soundtracks but it might insense audiophiles who want the amp to amplify things they can't hear and things that don't exist on their recordings.
Haha, you are I are SO on the same page.

If you want serious audiophile type sound quality get the Crown D75 - crown's best monitoring amp. It is a high current 75 wpc amp that is more powerful than anything in a name brand receiver. Flat as a pancake from 20 to 20K. I use one for mixing and mastering in my project studio. It drives my home made Vifa driven monitors. It is as clean as a whistle.

I had a pair of the old QSC USA 100 amps for many years in my home theater. These were also excellent - heavy and rugged. 100 wpc (RMS, not peak like the receivers rate it) I'm not sure which current model replaced them but they should certainly have something that is just fine for home theater applications. The USA 100 was pretty popular many years ago with the home theater crowd.

Either of these amps will blow you out of the room without working up a sweat. Either would be overkill for the listening levels I use.
Here is a list of THX-Certified cinema amps (and speakers, the amps are listed at the bottom) for Fall '07:
http://www.thx.com/products/professional/pdf/ApprovedEquipList.pdf
(obviously there are other awesome pro amps, this is just their list)

So, my Crown XLS402 is THX certified for cinema use... and I paid 330 after the rebate... I wonder what a comparable home amp would cost with THX certification? Could I even find one? Home audio stuff is just waayyy overpriced. There is no doubt in my mind that my next home theater upgrade will be all amplified by pro-audio seperates.
 
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