Yamaha vs. Denon

[mtrycrafts]

- As for speakers, the only thing that I have are Bose 601s (about 20 years old).

- No flat screen yet. I'm still in the dark ages! I'm still debating between Plasma and LCD.

- I would appreciate a recommendation on DVD also.

I will be using the system for surround sound in the TV room. And would love to be able to run my Bose 601 plus another set of speakers (having 4 speakers) in the living room.

Denon AVR-3808CI is about $1,500. and Yamaha RX-Z9 is about $1,800.

What speakers do you recommend?

There are a lot to consider with an update, especially after 20 years and now just at the edge of moving to Hi-def formats and the old TV format going off air in a few years.
Do you want to upgrade incrementally? Then to what end result? Short term, longer term?
Do you want to only consider adding speakers or replacing what you have and a full blown 5.1 setup, or even 6.1/7.1?
Then, speakers in essence determines what components to get to drive the speakers, unless you select speakers that are easy on the amp.
Will you be considering a screen size of 50" and over or under?
Hi-def dvd playback or just standard def?
If you decide hastily you will be chasing stuff in the end. Best to plan ahead, not redo after a misstep.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Point is, Keninm2 in my opinion would be better served by looking into separates if he's willing to spend $1800 on a receiver.

Yeah, I vote for separates too.

But I thought Keninm2 had his mind made up on a $1,500 - $1,800 receiver.

So I think that if he absolutely wants a receiver, $1,800 on a Yamaha Z9 sounds pretty good to me.

If he had just asked, what receiver do you recommend, I would say Onkyo 805.

But if it were totally open, I'd go for separates too.

 

[kevinm2]

Wow - What a forum.

I appreciate all of your feedbacks.

I listened to Seth=L’s suggestions and went to our local stereo place here. They did a demo on "Definitive Technology", "Vienna Acoustics" and "Martin Logan". I know you're going to ask me what models, but unfortunately I wrote down and lost the models numbers.

They only had the Denon and Marantz receivers. Vienna Acoustic and Martin Logan were played from Denon AVR-3808CI and they sounded great. But Maritn Logan was on the large side. Definitive Technology was played from a lower model of Denon and I wasn't so impressed with the sound.

Unfortunately, I haven't found a really professional stereo outfit with a nice variety of stereos and speakers yet, so sound could be compared properly.

I will look at Onkyo models as suggested.

My goal is to get the best equipment available today. If I can't afford it, I don't have to have it all today. I could purchase them in bits and pieces. As I've mentioned I keep things for the long haul.

I would appreciate more speaker suggestions.

Thanks again for all you help.

 

[kevinm2]

i would recommend the denon (or other HDMI receiver) over the Z9 because it looks like kevin keeps his stuff for decades and the z9 (without HDMI) is obsolete even before he buys it.

So mike Z9 is no good, since it doesn't have any HDMI input or output. Correct?

Another stupid question....

Why would you need HDMI in your receiver anyway? Is it used to filter out audio for speakers and then send the video signal through the receiver to the HD TV?

 

[Seth=L]

Is it used to filter out audio for speakers and then send the video signal through the receiver to the HD TV?

On a basic level yes. Some of the best audio formats can be enjoyed with the use of HDMI. The great think about the TX-SR805 is if you need more power you can add amplification to it if needed. Room acoustics and speaker selection should always come first though.

 

[kevinm2]

Any speaker recommendation for a surround sound?

 

[mike c]

So mike Z9 is no good, since it doesn't have any HDMI input or output. Correct?

Another stupid question....

Why would you need HDMI in your receiver anyway? Is it used to filter out audio for speakers and then send the video signal through the receiver to the HD TV?

oh the Z9 was a great receiver during its time ... and if a person were looking for standard receiver features like surround processing and a great built in amp ... it will do the job well.

but even Yamaha has rolled out its HDMI replacement in the Z11 ...

since you keep your equipment for decades, I really recommend getting the HDMI receivers ... the 3808 receiver you are considering is not bad, a good amp section (not as good as the Z9, but you won't notice the difference).

re: HDMI ... you need HDMI connections if say you have both a Blu-ray and HD DVD player. one day, it will be the standard connection between tv's, receivers and players. it is also an added convenience especially for you starting over with your system since you only need ONE HDMI cable from the TV to the receiver instead of the standard GREEN RED BLUE cable ... and you only need ONE cable from the player to the receiver instead of using the 8 cables for 7.1 or 6 cables for 5.1. trust me, HDMI is to home theater as USB is to PC's.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Wow - What a forum.

I appreciate all of your feedbacks.

I listened to Seth=L’s suggestions and went to our local stereo place here. They did a demo on "Definitive Technology", "Vienna Acoustics" and "Martin Logan". I know you're going to ask me what models, but unfortunately I wrote down and lost the models numbers.

They only had the Denon and Marantz receivers. Vienna Acoustic and Martin Logan were played from Denon AVR-3808CI and they sounded great. But Maritn Logan was on the large side. Definitive Technology was played from a lower model of Denon and I wasn't so impressed with the sound.

Unfortunately, I haven't found a really professional stereo outfit with a nice variety of stereos and speakers yet, so sound could be compared properly.

I will look at Onkyo models as suggested.

My goal is to get the best equipment available today. If I can't afford it, I don't have to have it all today. I could purchase them in bits and pieces. As I've mentioned I keep things for the long haul.

I would appreciate more speaker suggestions.

Thanks again for all you help.

Sounds like you went to Magnolia HT (Best Buy)?

Def Tech bipolars are tricky & require a lot of room (away from walls on all sides). So unless you have plenty of room, it might be safe to go with direct-radiating speakers. I think this is the major reason some people do not like Def Tech Bipolars. These retailers are doing a very bad job with their speaker placement. These bipolars are tricky creatures.

I heard Aperion towers, which are front direct-radiating, are also tricky with placements.

That's why audition IN YOUR OWN home is important. I've listened to the Denon 3808, 4308, 2808, & I cannot hear any difference. So the difference you heard is due to the speakers, not the receivers.

Onkyo vs Denon/Marantz: they are basically the same, except Onkyos are less expensive.

 

[kevinm2]

You guessed right.

Any speaker recommendations?

 

[soloz2]

You guessed right.

Any speaker recommendations?

that depends on what you want. movies or music, what kind of music?

You could easily do something similar to what I'm doing.

Onix Reference 1 monitors with a Reference 100 center. I'm probably going to pre-order an X-plosion sub from them as well. total w/o the sub is under $1k shipped. I plan to use my Infinity RS2's for rear surround duty for now. I'm also looking in the used market of sub $600 receivers, and it looks like I'm going to end up with a Marantz SR7001. Total should be under 2k, and if I decide not to get the sub now it'll be closer to 1.5k

Music is more important to me than movies so that's why I don't need a current gen av receiver with all the bells and whistles, a good processor with a solid amp is more important and that's also why I can get by w/ lesser rears (aside from them not being quite as important for movies anyway)

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

You guessed right.

Any speaker recommendations?

Personally, I would make a list of speakers:
1) Within budget, make a list of all the speakers that have decent specifications to you.

Here is one chart I compiled:
http://www.freewebs.com/acudeftechguy/systemsetupspeakerchart.htm

2) With that list, audition those speakers.
3) Before you buy, make sure the store allows for free in-home audition: return speakers without restocking fees.

There are basically two types of speakers: mono-polar (front direct radiating) & multi-polar (bipole, dipole, etc. where sound radiates in front & rear &/or sides).

multi-polars can be tricky and speaker placement is crucial. You found that out with the Def Tech speakers at Magnolia HT---probably the BP7002, BP7004, or BP7006.

A lot of people will recommend AV123 or Axiom speakers, and it's not a bad place to start. Unfortunately, you will have to order online and do a home audition. Keep in mind that some places offer huge sales, like AV123.

So start on paper. Look at specs & budget. Then audition if possible.

 

[soloz2]

I just ordered:
Reference 1 monitors
Reference 100 center
X-Plosion sub

from av123. all heavily discounted on their sale/pre-order

 

[Duffinator]

oh the Z9 was a great receiver during its time ... and if a person were looking for standard receiver features like surround processing and a great built in amp ... it will do the job well.

but even Yamaha has rolled out its HDMI replacement in the Z11 ...

since you keep your equipment for decades, I really recommend getting the HDMI receivers ... the 3808 receiver you are considering is not bad, a good amp section (not as good as the Z9, but you won't notice the difference).

re: HDMI ... you need HDMI connections if say you have both a Blu-ray and HD DVD player. one day, it will be the standard connection between tv's, receivers and players. it is also an added convenience especially for you starting over with your system since you only need ONE HDMI cable from the TV to the receiver instead of the standard GREEN RED BLUE cable ... and you only need ONE cable from the player to the receiver instead of using the 8 cables for 7.1 or 6 cables for 5.1. trust me, HDMI is to home theater as USB is to PC's.

Agreed. The Z9 without HDMI is a boat anchor for most of us. Look elsewhere.

 

[BMXTRIX]

There are many receivers available across the market which will perform. They likely are all capable, but what is it you want and what direction do you see yourself headed in with this receiver?

For many years, receivers were how you got audio, and then the video went to your TV, often times, not even utlizing your 'good' speakers for television purposes.

But, I would think that you might really find it inspiring to have a receiver that can handle everything you will throw at it. This includes the new HD audio formats (DTS-MA, Dolby True HD, etc.) and this will ask for a HDMI 1.3 connection. These can be found on most new receivers these days, but the addition of HD audio decoding isn't on all of them. I know some cheaper Onkyos have them, and they may be worth considering, as well as the mid-range Denon and Yamaha receivers.

I wouldn't worry to much about HDMI as you can add an external HDMI switcher to anything you want.

I would, very seriously, consider an external amplifier, but you also run into the reality that most receivers that are cutting edge with their decoding, already often run very good amplifiers within them.

I am very seriosuly hoping that Denon releases an updated version of this pre-amp that I can hook up to some external receiver:

http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=4214&CatID=17&SubCatID=165

Mmmmm... HDMI & balanced audio preouts! That's about as top of the line, for a reasonable price as you can find.

$900 @ B&H Photo!

 

[Seth=L]

http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=4214&CatID=17&SubCatID=165

Hmm, that is quite nice looking.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

http://www.d-mpro.com/users/folder.asp?FolderID=4214&CatID=17&SubCatID=165

$900 @ B&H Photo!

Wow, that is a beautiful looking Pre-Pro, especially for $900!

 

[Highlander]

Denon 08 series recievers look like poo. So that settles it then

Yeah, I'm not a fan of the Denon look. Still, each to their own.

The Z9 without HDMI is a boat anchor for most of us.

But not to all. I'd normally agree that it'd be foolish to purchase a receiver so 'old', but given the price you appear to get a Z9 for, I'm not so sure. It may not have HDMI but...

I wouldn't worry to much about HDMI as you can add an external HDMI switcher to anything you want.

Besides, it does have i-link which, whilst it may not pass the latest Dolby/dts formats, will pass DVD-A/SACD. Moreover, unless you have your room's acoustics sorted, and the overwhelming majority of folk do not - even members on audio enthusiast boards like Audioholics - I'd be wary of suggesting that you'd be missing out on the uncompressed new audio formats over those existing, in terms of sound quality.

Kevinm2, I do agree with others that you'd be better allocating more of your budget to speakers than a receiver as you'll then maximize sound quality on a per dollar basis. However, it's not necessarily that easy. For example, you'd perhaps maximize sound quality even more by buying an amp as opposed to a receiver, except that then you'd be without (a) more than likely a built-in Tuner and (b), a processor for multi-channel audio. Features, therefore, must also be taken into consideration.

At the end of the day only you can determine what you want, what you need and perhaps most importantly, what you're prepared to settle for. I own a Z9 and I can tell you that it is my pride and joy. It matters not that I use only a fraction of its power and fall short of driving its full complement of 9.2 speakers.

 

[kevinm2]

Onkyo TX-SR805 or 875 is sounding more reasonable. This weekend I will go to Frys where they might have the 805 or 875 just to check it out.

My biggest question now is, Which brand of speakers should I be looking at for a surround sound system.

Another question is floor model or book shelfs? I know they sound way different from each other.

I have been looking around but nothing yet.

Again I would appreciate brand recommendations.

 

[mike c]

based on features ... which Onkyo matches the Denon 3808?

 

[Seth=L]

Onkyo TX-SR875.

The TX-SR875 has a superior scaler and weighs 15 pounds more than the Denon. They have similar street prices to my knowledge.

The TX-SR805 doesn't have a scaler, to my knowledge