Will Axiom M60s work?

Brian_the_King

Brian_the_King

Full Audioholic
Hey all.

My system is below, but if you'd rather not wade through pics and everything here is the condensed version;

Infinity Primus 250 [$400 new, when still in production]
Denon DRA 395 [80Wx2 w/ 0.08% THD @ 8Ω 20Hz-20KHz] [$350 new, when still in production]
Denon DCM 280 [$200 new, when still in production]

I hope to replace my Infinitys with a pair of Axiom Audio M60 V2s soon [especially with this free gloss upgrade going on], and I just wanted to ask if anyone thinks the speakers will be 'too good'/'revealing' for the rest of my system.

I'm not sure how far the Denon gear will take me, and I know its not the same in every situation, but I want a better idea. What do you think proper amount to spend on speakers is, given the other stuff in my system? Are the M60's just right? Could I spend more and not be 'bottlenecked'? Should I spend less?

Lend me your thoughts.
;)
 
Brian_the_King

Brian_the_King

Full Audioholic
Yes, this is for 2 channel music only.

I am trying to keep at or under $1K, including tax and shipping.

You did more or less answer my question, so thank you,
But I want to ask; Why not the Axioms, and why do you recommend these speakers? I must say though, I do really like the Wharfedales [as much as I can like them without hearing them anyway :rolleyes:]

Edit: Zumbo, you recommended me a speaker upgrade a long time ago, but I never bought them. Hopefully I follow through this time, eh? ;)
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
have you auditioned some speakers? what have you heard and what did and didn't you like?
 
Brian_the_King

Brian_the_King

Full Audioholic
I have not; All I have near me is CC, BB, and Tweeter. The only other option is Abt, but that's a two hour drive. My CC BB and Tweeter stores really only have, in my price range, Klipsch and Polk. Even Abt has a limited selection in the $1K area.

Also, I'm 17. And despite the fact that I don't look or act like a spineless whelp, I still get looked/talked down upon so hardcore at all of these stores [maybe not CC so much], it's just ridiculous.

I know those are two weak excuses, but I never really though about auditioning speakers I wasn't planning on buying [mainly because they are going to sound so different on my stuff in my room].

If you/others think that would really be a worthwhile pursuit [just hearing Polk and Klipsch, maybe Boston or Def Tech], though, perhaps I'll just brace myself for a wave of elitism from the sales reps and go auditioning this weekend.
 
Z

zumbo

Audioholic Spartan
The Wharfedales do look sweet. They also have great specs. I have purchased from Wild West before, and they are great to deal with. It wouldn't hurt to try to work-out an in home demo with them.
 
Brian_the_King

Brian_the_King

Full Audioholic
..I have purchased from Wild West before, and they are great to deal with. It wouldn't hurt to try to work-out an in home demo with them.
That is good to hear, I'll look into that as well.
 
mike c

mike c

Audioholic Warlord
i get that from salesmen myself. but as soon as I spit out my spiel of how much and many items I'm going to buy ... they start kissing my a$$.

believe me, I've done this with Martin Logan dealers, B&W 800 series dealers (way way way way way out of my budget) and they all think I'm the richest guy on the planet.

subwoofer example: "is this any good? I'd like to buy two for my bedroom ... I also have a home theater under construction and looking for some speakers."
 
Haoleb

Haoleb

Audioholic Field Marshall
You can never buy "too" good of speakers for your equipment. Would you be able to hear differences in equipment better with better speakers? Yeah. Most likely. But can you buy speakers that are too good for the rest of your stuff? Never.


You can buy speakers that wont work well with other equipment... But that is not the case here.
 
agarwalro

agarwalro

Audioholic Ninja
I just wanted to ask if anyone thinks the speakers will be 'too good'/'revealing' for the rest of my system.
A few questions come to mind,

1) What is wrong with finding out there is room for improvement?
2) If I read this right, you'd rather buy poorer sounding speakers to mask inaccuracies of the current electronics?
3) Is this a short term purchase, i.e. when you eventually upgrade to better electronics, will you be looking to upgrade to better speakers also?
4) Are you aversed to a 2.1 setup? IMO, a good $1K 2.1 setup will blow away any $1K floorstanding 2.0 setup.

IMHO, get the best sounding speaker in your budget since they will be one less thing to worry about.

You can never buy "too" good of speakers for your equipment. Would you be able to hear differences in equipment better with better speakers? Yeah. Most likely. But can you buy speakers that are too good for the rest of your stuff? Never.
My thoughts exactly.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Hey all.

My system is below, but if you'd rather not wade through pics and everything here is the condensed version;

Infinity Primus 250 [$400 new, when still in production]
Denon DRA 395 [80Wx2 w/ 0.08% THD @ 8Ω 20Hz-20KHz] [$350 new, when still in production]
Denon DCM 280 [$200 new, when still in production]

I hope to replace my Infinitys with a pair of Axiom Audio M60 V2s soon [especially with this free gloss upgrade going on], and I just wanted to ask if anyone thinks the speakers will be 'too good'/'revealing' for the rest of my system.

I'm not sure how far the Denon gear will take me, and I know its not the same in every situation, but I want a better idea. What do you think proper amount to spend on speakers is, given the other stuff in my system? Are the M60's just right? Could I spend more and not be 'bottlenecked'? Should I spend less?

Lend me your thoughts.
;)
I would not recommend buying the Axioms as an upgrade. Axiom speakers are not evidenced to me to be of any special value. They measure poorly compared to other available speakers in the same price range. I am not even sure if they would be as good as the Primus 250 speakers(the primus probably has a higher quality midrange driver, a smoother response curve and better designed crossover and probably has superior off axis response). If you are looking to economize and still yield large improvement, I can specify physical modifications to that speaker that you can perform to substantially improve it's clarity/resolution, and in addition, add stereo subwoofers(one somewhat near each main speaker) with an active crossover used to split to the speakers/subs at about 80-90Hz. If you really want new speakers that are a substantial upgrade, save up a bit more, and go for something like a B&W CM7. But I would not be surprised if this was not as good as the modified Primus 250s with stereo subwoofers.

-Chris
 
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Brian_the_King

Brian_the_King

Full Audioholic
...If you are looking to economize and still yield large improvement, I can specify physical modifications to that speaker that you can perform to substantially improve it's clarity/resolution, and in addition, add stereo subwoofers(one somewhat near each main speaker) with an active crossover used to split to the speakers/subs at about 80-90Hz. If you really want new speakers that are a substantial upgrade, save up a bit more, and go for something like a B&W CM7. But I would not be surprised if this was not as good as the modified Primus 250s with stereo subwoofers.

-Chris
I do have one mediocre subwoofer [check sig], although I obviously don't have an active crossover or anything fancy like that... just having the sub cut off @ 70Hz.

Tell me exactly what you mean, though, by physically modifying the speakers? You have piqued my interest.. ;)

Edit: Also, my subwoofer has been discontinued for quite a while now. If I were to follow through with your plan, ~ how much would you suggest I spend on each sub? And a quality crossover [and what all would I need cable-wise to integrate a crossover]?

This is convenient that you suggest a less expensive upgrade, because the more I think about it [and listen to my system], the less I think I have $1000+ to spend on new speakers... :rolleyes:
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Tell me exactly what you mean, though, by physically modifying the speakers? You have piqued my interest.. ;)
You can choose one of two levels of modification, based on what you are comfortable with doing/ease. Level 1 is effective and offers substantial improvement, giving you a reduced resonance cabinet. Level 2 offers substantial improvement over level 1, giving you a very low resonance cabinet.

Level 1 - Easy

1. Remove drivers.

2. Remove the acoustic batting in the speakers(the stuff used from the factory in Primus speakers is a low density 1.5-2" thick recycled poly fibre batting -- practically useless for removing the reflections/reverberation in the frequency band of interest in the cabinet).

3. Clean walls with denatured alcohol.

4. Apply Dynamat or Dynamat-like material(Peel N' Seal from Lowe's is cheaper and just as good for this application) in layers until you get about 1/3-1/2" thick layer of this material built up on the internal walls. This material will slightly attenuate the wall resonance amplitude -- but it will substantially reduce the time decay of that resonance -- when used in the amount that I recommended. Note: Use a hair dryer or heat gun to warm up the sticky side of the material before applying the first layer. This will insure a good adhesion to the MDF walls. You do not usually need to heat the additional layers as you apply them, but do this in a warm room, and make sure the Dynamat type material is at the room temperature, not cold from outside storage.

5. Install a new, high grade acoustic damping material that will actually do the job that it is supposed to do. Use a 2" thick high density (6lb.- 8lb./ft^3) rock wool board or fiberglass board. The rock wool product is usually referred to as 8# mineral board and the fiberglass is usually called OC(Owens-Corning) 705. You will find this material at commercial fiberglass contractor/installation companies. If you can not find this material, I will gladly mail some to you for raw cost of material and shipping. Expect to pay in the $10-$20 dollar range, including shipping, if I send it to you. Cover every wall with the material, and add a 2nd layer on the rear wall in a section spanning the direct rear area of the drivers to prevent any reflection. Use 2nd layer in addition on the bottom and top wall. You can install with only 4 fasteners if you cut the pieces to fit tightly and put in the top and bottom pieces first, and then use the side pieces(fitting tightly) to hold it in place tightly. To fasten, use coarse thread drywall screws with very large diameter washers on them, and screw them through the material into the MDF at the critical points to keep the pieces from sliding loose. Use an acoustic transparent cloth over the fiberglass or rock wool board to prevent fibers from coming out of the port. Go to any fabric shop and find a loose weave cloth that you can blow through and feel the air on the other side without much restriction. You can simply tuck the cloth under the fiberglass or rock wool as you install it to hold it in.

6. Re-install crossovers, terminals and drivers



Level 2 - Difficult

1. Remove drivers.

2. Remove crossover board, terminals and wiring.

3. Look in the cabinet and locate the main bracing. Drill a 3/4" hole in the back on each side of the bracing.

4. Use a router with a high quality flush laminate bit installed. Insert into drilled holes and pull towards the outer/side walls as a guide for the laminate bit(the laminate bit has a bearing on the bottom of it to use any wall as a guide). Cut out the backs completely. Use a hammer, chisel and screwdriver to remove left over small bits of the rear wall.

5. Use hammer, chisel and screwdriver to remove all internal bracing, including the small triangular corner pieces.

6. Use large chisel and hammer(and heat gun) to remove any hot glue blobs/residue left in the cabinet.

7. Clean walls with denatured alcohol.

8. Apply Dynamat or Dynamat-like material in layers to build up to 1/4-1/3" inch. Heat the first layer before application to insure good adhesion.

9. Use a coarse(60-80 grit) sandpaper and rough up the aluminum outer layer of the Dynamat.

10. Clean the aluminum with denatured alcohol.

11. Cut 3/4" MDF to fit over the Dynamat on all walls. Have it fit snugly, but not tight(if it is tight - it might cause too much pressure on the outer wall joints over time and cause them to develop a breach at the joints). Use heavy duty Liquid Nails construction adhesive between the walls and aluminum and install the inner walls.

12. Use 1" x 2" oak wood and install bracing no farther then ever 3" in every axis direction. Cris cross the pieces and use plenty of high quality wood glue. Be certain to install bracing to anchor many points on the front baffle to rear wall. Make sure to cut an leave many points for the new rear wall to be glued and secure to the bracing.

13. Install the acoustic damping materials between the bracing(will have to cut small pieces and slide it in the matrix).

14. Cut out MDF for a new back and install the back. If you make the back solid, use at least 2 layers of 3/4' MDF laminated together. Alternatively, you could make a MDF/Dynamat/MDF construction as you did with the side and front walls.

15. Use a razor blade and straight edge and carefully remove the left over vinyl veneer on the back edges.

16. Use wood or body filler and fill in the spaces left between the new back and old back edges. Sand smooth.

17. Mask off the vinyl veneer sides. Use primer and paint to give a basic flat or satin finish to the new back.

18. Re-install crossovers, terminals and drivers.

Note: Level 2 reduces internal volume substantially. As a result the low end of the speakers is now at a higher frequency. This is not an issue if you are using subwoofers, but it would be an issue if you were using the towers as full range speakers.
Edit: Also, my subwoofer has been discontinued for quite a while now. If I were to follow through with your plan, ~ how much would you suggest I spend on each sub? And a quality crossover [and what all would I need cable-wise to integrate a crossover]?
If you can find the same sub on eBay used, get a 2nd. If not, for a low cost and decent subwoofer, I always recommend the Dayton 12" or 10" subwoofers on www.partsexpress.com. These range from $100-$150 each, depending on if they are on sale. These are low cost, but much better than what you would expect at that price from any other vendor of which I am aware. These have good cabinets, good amplifiers and decent drivers. You can easily replace the drivers later on and re-tune the port/cabinet as an upgrade in the future, if you so felt the desire to do so.

Your receiver should have a built in crossover system -- set to about 80Hz -- set front speakers to 'small' so that they are also crossed over at the set frequency.

Either way you choose, you will spend a total of $450-$600, well under the $1000 budget and you will end up with a much better speaker system than would be possible by spending $1000. If you choose to go Level 2, it would be unlikely that you could improve much by spending $6000 for a pair of new speakers. The drivers and crossovers used on the Primus are very good -- this is not a short coming on this speaker system. The cabinet appears to be the main issue. You should take a Dremel tool with a metal cutting disc(and please wear a full face shield) and cut a line through the metal shield casing on the back of the mid drivers and remove this shell. Every Primus dirver I have encountered had a rattle originating from this shield as a result of inadequate securing measures.

Please consider using some of the saved money to build DIY acoustic panels. It will drastically increase the sound quality, based on the pictures of your room that I observed. Today, probably the easiest way to make good looking DIY panels is to buy the pre-made metal frames from Ready Acoustics. These are very nice, and are about $30 each, if I remember correctly. Just buy some 8# mineral board and use this in the frames. Get some $1/yard cloth from Wal-Mart's cloth bargain bin and you will have professional looking treatments for low $$.

BTW, here is a Primus 150 done at level 2(I also installed a real veneer - replacing the black vinyl):





-Chris
 
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Brian_the_King

Brian_the_King

Full Audioholic
Chris, thanks for the detailed response.

I do have a few questions about methods 1 and 2, but before I ask I believe we have a greater problem to solve;

My reciever, a Denon DRA-395, while having a dedicated pre-out for a subwoofer, does not have a crossover of any kind. In addition, it has just a single pre-out, which would also make a dual subwoofer setup difficult.

 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Chris, thanks for the detailed response.

I do have a few questions about methods 1 and 2, but before I ask I believe we have a greater problem to solve;

My reciever, a Denon DRA-395, while having a dedicated pre-out for a subwoofer, does not have a crossover of any kind. In addition, it has just a single pre-out, which would also make a dual subwoofer setup difficult.

Does the receiver have a full range pre-out?

This may be a matter of adding a low cost(but high quality) external active crossover and a low cost(but high quality) outboard amplifier for the main channels, using the receiver as only a pre-amplifier and source selector.

-Chris
 
Brian_the_King

Brian_the_King

Full Audioholic
Does the receiver have a full range pre-out?
...
I'm not sure, but I think it does. I can only go off of what the manual says, however. I have no clue otherwise;

"Line input - PRE OUT
Input sensitivity/input impedance: 200 mV / 47 kΩ/kohms
Frequency response: 10 Hz ~ 50kHz: +/- 1.5 dB
S/N ratio: 100 dB (IHF-A weighted)
Total harmonic distortion: 0.009% (-3 dB at rated output, 8 Ω/ohms) (1 kHz)
Rated output: 1.2 V"

Does this answer your question, or must I dig deeper?

...This may be a matter of adding a low cost(but high quality) external active crossover and a low cost(but high quality) outboard amplifier for the main channels, using the receiver as only a pre-amplifier and source selector.

-Chris
Do you have specific separates in mind? I know both of these things can get expensive quickly...

Edit: How would I connect a separate amplifier? Would I just use the single channel sub out, or the multi-zone out?
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Does this answer your question, or must I dig deeper?
Looks like it should have a pre-out.



Do you have specific separates in mind? I know both of these things can get expensive quickly...
Behringer CX2310 for the crossover. Very high quality -- yet very low cost. Around $90.

For the amplifier, a high quality used unit, like an Adcom GFA-535 or GFA-545. You can get these off of ebay for the $150-$200 range.

If you were to get the CX2310, the Adcom 545, two of the Dayton 10" subs(now on sale for $105) and do the Level 1 modifications, the total parts cost would come out to $650-$750 including shipping and cables, etc. Level 2 would practically increase parts cost by about $100-$125 assuming that you already have or have access to the power tools.

-Chris
 
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Brian_the_King

Brian_the_King

Full Audioholic
The Behringer uses XLR connectors. I don't understand how I would connect my reciever, the adcom amp, and the crossover to my speakers?

Edit: Haha, the subwoofers too; I'm still not understanding how I would connect two of them?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
The Behringer uses XLR connectors. I don't understand how I would connect my reciever, the adcom amp, and the crossover to my speakers?
You can buy pre-made adapters, or you can solder up some custom cables, with an RCA on one end and XLR on the other, which is very easy.

The xover has stereo LF and HF outputs.

I know this process of modification and set up as I am directing is not usual - but it makes a huge difference in the end quality of your system if you are willing to put forth the extra effort. The only real question seems to be if you should do Level 1 or Level 2 cabinet modification. :)

-Chris
 
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