Are audiophiles the most gullable of hobbyists

[3db]

I'm a member of afew forums (yeah I'm a sl?t. What can I say? ) and the things I've read just behooves me. Where do these people get their ideas?

1.) Tosslinkvs Coax: tosslinks sounds softer and warmer than coax. Really?

2.) Elevating speaker cables off the floor helps reduce EMI interference

These are a few to spring to mind; oh and that $7500 cable thats makesthe sound more danceable . I think I misquoted that one.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

I agree that audiophiles tend to be gullible (especially "high end" audiophiles.) I don't know enough about other types of hobbyists, however, to make a comparison.

 

[stratman]

Hey 3,

It happens in all types of hobbies. For instance by far my biggest hobby is skeet, and I run into all kinds of fellow shooters with the nuttiest ideas, for instance does shotgun brand make you a better shooter? Obviously not, but to some if you're not shooting an $12,000 Krieghoff or a Perazzi you'll never reach the top, that's bull. Out of college I bought my first over and under Browning set up for skeet from the factory and within two weeks I was smoking the shotgun "jet-set" with my $1000 gun (of course I was out on the field practicing 4 days a week while they stayed home polishing their expensive guns.) After that the topic of shotgun brand vs competence wasn't touched around me. People will believe what they want to believe and even in the face of empirical evidence they'll still cling to their notions as crazy as they are, especially in A/V.

 

[Thaedium]

Its not just Audiophiles like Stratman said. Any hobby has the same sort of things going on. Mostly its due to marketing and the concept of brands. People the world over are consumed with the concepts of brands. People feel an attachment to these brands based on the marketing goals and aims and as such tend to have a belief that it offers suprerior quality over a generic product. Like Stratman said, a shotgun is a shotgun. I've fired just about every type of rifle in the military, and have used a variety of pistols for competition and at the end of the day the end result is the same.

I'm an avid Paradigm fan, and I know its solely based on the fact that a set of Monitor 9's were my first real experience with audiophilism. I like other brands, but if I had to choose between a comparable set of speakers I'd go with Paradigm's based on the brand concept that I've bought into.

Just another example is here in the military a lot of guys "have" to have a pair of Oakley's for ballistic eyewear, even though we are issued a pair of free eyewear by our units, and can replace the lenses whenever they get scratched. So they go out and drop $200 on some lenses. I'll admit that in my experience the Oakley's offer surperior ballistic protection, and are less likely to scratch, but at $200 for the frames and a couple of lenses I'll do without.

 

[jonnythan]

It's everything.

Shooting, motorcycles, scuba diving, computers, cars, outdoor gear. Doesn't matter. Gullible people everywhere.

 

[fmw]

I like to say that if you travel down the highway at 60mph in a Ferrari you will arrive in the same amount of time that you would in a Saturn. The experience, however, isn't same. Casio watches tell time just as well as Rolex watches. So do Citizen watches and you don't even have to wind them or change batteries. But people still buy Rolexes.

High end audio is the same thing. The difference is that audiophiles have an apparent need to justify their purchases with sonics. The Ferrari owner just buys it because he can afford it and it is very cool, even though there aren't many places he can put the car through its paces. He would be better off with a Saturn if he lives and parks in a large city. The Rolex owner makes no claims about the performance of the watch. It isn't why he or she bought it.

The audiophile seems to need to hear a sonic improvement as a justification. 150lb 300 watt per channel class A amplifiers are very cool. They turn me on just like they do anybody else. But the audiophile needs to have it sound better than the 60 lb. 150 watt per channel class AB amp in his home stereo system. I don't know why. I think that is what separates audiophiles from other hobbyists.

 

[fmw]

Hey 3,

It happens in all types of hobbies. For instance by far my biggest hobby is skeet, and I run into all kinds of fellow shooters with the nuttiest ideas, for instance does shotgun brand make you a better shooter? Obviously not, but to some if you're not shooting an $12,000 Krieghoff or a Perazzi you'll never reach the top, that's bull. Out of college I bought my first over and under Browning set up for skeet from the factory and within two weeks I was smoking the shotgun "jet-set" with my $1000 gun (of course I was out on the field practicing 4 days a week while they stayed home polishing their expensive guns.) After that the topic of shotgun brand vs competence wasn't touched around me. People will believe what they want to believe and even in the face of empirical evidence they'll still cling to their notions as crazy as they are, especially in A/V.

Ouch. While my skeet gun is only a Beretta with Briley tubes, my trap and sporting clays guns are both Perazzi. Perhaps I shouldn't admit that, huh? While the Perazzi might not shoot any better, it will do wonders in the pride-of-ownership department. Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with 150lb. Class A power amplifiers either.

 

[jonnythan]

FMW, I don't think we're talking about the difference between Sony and Outlaw or the difference between Ferrari and Yugo.

We're talking about the difference between $12,000 speaker cables on cable stands and 12-gauge zip cord. The difference between a Civic and a Civic with a $45 "horsepower upgrade" box that's literally a box with a single resistor in it that does nothing.

 

[Swerd]

Floyd E. Toole is the acknowledged leader in scientific testing of listener preferences in audio sound, especially as it applies to speakers. He had this interesting comment on audiophiles and the great debate:

"Knowledge of the products that are being evaluated by subjective testing is generally understood to be a powerful source of psychological bias. In scientific tests of many kinds of human perception, even wine tasting, considerable effort is expended to hide the identity of the devices or substances being subjectively evaluated. In audio, though, things are more relaxed, and otherwise serious people persist in the belief that they are immune to such factors as price, size, brand, etc. In some of the "great debate" issues, such as whether amplifiers, wires, and the like have an audible effect, there are those who claim that disguising the product identity actually prevents listeners from hearing differences that are in the range of extremely small to inaudible. This debate shows no signs of slowing down."

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

What about a $280,000 pair of speakers versus a $5,000 pair of speakers?
What would a double-blinded comparison test reveal?

 

[gmichael]

I own a pool stick that cost more than my whole HT system.

 

[3db]

I own a pool stick that cost more than my whole HT system.

Gee, I had no idea they could get that expensive

 

[fmw]

FMW, I don't think we're talking about the difference between Sony and Outlaw or the difference between Ferrari and Yugo.

We're talking about the difference between $12,000 speaker cables on cable stands and 12-gauge zip cord. The difference between a Civic and a Civic with a $45 "horsepower upgrade" box that's literally a box with a single resistor in it that does nothing.

Be glad Honda doesn't charge $1500 for the upgrade.

 

[fmw]

Floyd E. Toole is the acknowledged leader in scientific testing of listener preferences in audio sound, especially as it applies to speakers. He had this interesting comment on audiophiles and the great debate:

"Knowledge of the products that are being evaluated by subjective testing is generally understood to be a powerful source of psychological bias. In scientific tests of many kinds of human perception, even wine tasting, considerable effort is expended to hide the identity of the devices or substances being subjectively evaluated. In audio, though, things are more relaxed, and otherwise serious people persist in the belief that they are immune to such factors as price, size, brand, etc. In some of the "great debate" issues, such as whether amplifiers, wires, and the like have an audible effect, there are those who claim that disguising the product identity actually prevents listeners from hearing differences that are in the range of extremely small to inaudible. This debate shows no signs of slowing down."

Too bad they don't give Mr. Toole a column in Stereophile magazine.

 

[fmw]

What about a $280,000 pair of speakers versus a $5,000 pair of speakers?
What would a double-blinded comparison test reveal?

It would reveal any real audible differences between them and there most likely are real audible differences. There usually are with speaker systems, unlike cables, power cords etc.

 

[Joe Schmoe]

What about a $280,000 pair of speakers versus a $5,000 pair of speakers?
What would a double-blinded comparison test reveal?

Zip. Nada. It is very unlikely that a difference in quality between $1000 and $5000 would be audible, much less $5000 and $280,000 (they would sound different, of course, since even cheap speakers sound different from each other. One is not likely to be consistently preferred, however.)

 

[Joe Schmoe]

My other major hobby is painting. Other than preferring acrylic to oil, tubes to jars, and canvas to paper, there is nothing to get "tweaky" about. Some painters obsess about brushes, I suppose, but my style is not very dependent on brush quality.
I also do origami. It is possible to spend a lot on paper, but I use the cheap stuff.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

It would reveal any real audible differences between them and there most likely are real audible differences. There usually are with speaker systems, unlike cables, power cords etc.

If the speakers had very similar frequency responses, would people be able to pick out which speaker is which every time in a double-blinded audio test?

 

[Adam]

If the speakers had very similar frequency responses, would people be able to pick out which speaker is which every time in a double-blinded audio test?

I'm no DBT expert, but here's my take. It doesn't matter what others prefer or what others can tell...it only matters what the person buying it prefers or can tell. Value is in the wallet of the buyer, or something like that.

 

[gmichael]

Gee, I had no idea they could get that expensive

I have seen them go for over $40k.
Mine is less...