Building a basement bar, need audio suggestions..

[modernrocko]

Be forewarned, I'm in no way a savvy audiophile, so I'm probably going to sound like a complete novice. Please be patient!

Okay, so my friend and I are moving into our new townhouse tomorrow and we're going to turn our dank, boring basement into a fully-stocked bar. We've got everything planned out as far as the construction aspect goes, but I've been trying to get a sound system figured out before we get everything built.

This is probably going to sound confusing because I'm terrible at explanations, but what I'm hoping to do is keep the majority of the equipment upstairs as the basement is already a pretty small space. I'll be installing wall and ceiling-mounted 5.1 speakers around and behind the bar for music and tv, and that shouldn't be too difficult to do, but the next part might be a bit of a wiring nightmare.

We'd like to set things up so nearly the entire house is "networked." We're going to have a surround system set up in the living room, for television and movies. Let's call this SS1 (Sound System One), and the basement will be SS2. Neither of us own stereos, and we don't plan on buying a stereo because of how much we'll be investing in the bar and the audio systems, so we would like to have our computers connected to both sound systems for music playback. This way, if we're primarily downstairs and I want to listen to music from my computer, I switch the input on SS2 from Basement TV to "Rocko's PC." Then, say he decides he wants to listen to a song from his computer, so I switch the input on SS2 to "Roommate's PC." This wouldn't be difficult to do at all, but the problem arises when you take into consideration our laziness.

We'd like to be able to keep the receiver upstairs, like I mentioned, and we'd REALLY like to be able to change the input/output from the basement, without having to go upstairs. I'm guessing the receiver would have to have some kind of wired remote, since a regular remote control won't have a strong enough signal to go through floors, heh.

Another thing, we'd like to have one receiver that controls everything, so we don't have to juggle multiple remote controls or double the amount of wiring we've got going throughout the house. The problem I'm thinking will arise is that if one of us is upstairs and the other is downstairs, we probably won't be able to both have our audio systems running at the same time. Can you get a receiver to "multi-task," so to speak? Can one receiver route the audio from TV1 to SS1, and at the same time route the audio from TV2 to SS2?

Also, any idea how we could remotely control our PC media players from the basement? The only thing I can come up with for that is a USB LCD controller, which would work, but I can't seem to find anything that both displays the current track and allows you to change tracks from one device. I've found several that do one or other other, so I have a feeling I'll just have to shell out the cash to get one of each. Anyway, that's more of a secondary concern.

So, am I overly hopeful about this home system, or is this possible to do? Obviously it's going to be confusing, maybe a little more pricey than I'm hoping for, but is it possible or should I just stick to basics? What kind of receiver would you all recommend? Not including the speakers themselves, for just the wiring, receiver, and remote controllers, I was hoping to spend around $300-500. Preferrably less, if possible, but I don't really think that's likely.

Thanks in advance!

 

[highfihoney]

Unless somebody here has a magic wand & knows of a few ways to get this done i think you need to contact a highly skilled AV installer,im pretty sure that the boobs at best buy are not skilled enough to do what you need.

You want a fairly complicated install,i cant see it happening as a do it yourself project.

 

[Thaedium]

Going to have to agree with highfihoney.

It's a great project, and something you could probably do but I suspect you're going to be blown away by the costs of it all, and the reality of the research necessary on your part that needs to be done in order to do everything you'd like.

Regarding the costs for reciever/wires/remote controls, I think your estimation is too low by a significant number. First off, for the Reciever, and from what you've described you are talking about a multi-zoned feature, something a reciever in the lower price range 300 to 500 probably wont include. From what I understand of multi-zoning, and its very little since I have no need for it, there are recievers that will do exactly what you are asking. In fact, my reciever can handle 3 zones, so you could be upstairs watching your favorite blu-ray movie while your roomate could be entertaining a date and playing some tunes from the PC. Regardless, you're not looking at a cheap solution for a reciever.


As for remote controls, its not at all necessary to have a wired controler, and I highly doubt any recievers have inputs for them anyways. There most certainly are different types of controllers that will work from any place in the house, but again, you're not looking at a 25 dollar Wal-mart special, expect to pay in the arena of 100 +.

Regarding PC connection to reciever, again, you're not talking about a cheapo reciever. Take for instance my Pioneer Elite VSX-94TXH, MSRP of $1600, it has an ethernet connection that allows you to stream media from your PC thru to the reciever, something for you to consider might be just routing your video/audio into the reciever itself allowing you to utilize your TV screens for monitors and the audio to the speakers instead of just streaming the media via ethernet. Thats what I'm doing right now, so I have a nice 40" computer screen

The wiring of it all is going to be one of your biggest headaches, as well placement of your speakers. I'd suggest you also post the dimensions of the rooms you plan to use so you can get some feedback by some of the members here on best placement. Problem with in-wall, is that its pretty much a permanent thing, and re-arranging the layout of the room is suddenly not really feasible, at least drastic changes aren't anyways. With regards to the procurement of the wiring itself, that actually might be on the cheap! good news for you I guess, most people on this forum will recommend you check out Blue Jeans Cable, or Monoprice... I'm to lazy to link it, but just look around you'll find the sites no problem.

So in closing, my suggestion is that you seriously rethink your budget here, and do some serious investigation into what type of product you want for a reciever. What features are important to you? IE: Do your TV's support HDMI? Because an HDMI cable will cut down on the amount of wires being installed over regular component cables. Which also begs a question that probably should have preceded the last, but do you want to use HD in your system? Blu-ray or HD-DVD? Satellite HD, etc... Do you want upscaling on the reciever? If you want a lot of these features, you're definently looking at the very least at doubling your initial estimate of 300 to 500 into the 1000 market. Lots of people here will be able to give better recommendations then I as to what you should be looking for, but it would help if you could help us narrow the field down some by listing some of the features you're interested in having other then multi-zone.


Hope this helps a little.

 

[OttoMatic]

Yeah, I pretty much agree with the others.

You can get an RF-based remote like the Harmony 890 that will allow you control over any device that uses IR as an input (pretty much any device that has a remote control is IR-based). There are other RF-based remotes as well by companies like Universal. I believe the 890 is around $250.

I "remote control" my PC by simply doing a remote desktop session from a couple different laptops. The remote I discussed above will also be able to send a signal to the PC, if you set that PC to be controlled by IR. It's possible to do, and it can work, but it's difficult to control a PC when you can't see it. Really it just becomes "next song" as your one usable feature (and maybe "pause" and "play").

Like the Thaedium said, you'll need a two-zone receiver. That will allow you to "multi task," as you described it, sending one PC's signal to SS1 and the other PC's signal to SS2. All two-zone receivers and preamps that I've dealt with (a handful of them) require analog inputs for "Zone 2" usage. Therefore, they do not support the multi-channel signals that movies offer.

Since "Zone 2" most likely won't support multi-channel audio, I might recommend that you only install two speakers in the basement. I'm not sure what you usage will be (would you intend to watch a lot of TV/movies down there?), but you won't get that audio for movies. Of course, you can still get two-channel audio with TV and movies, which may be more than enough in that situation.

Yep, it's a relatively large project. I've done something similar at my house, and it's a lot of work. Running wires is probably the biggest pain of it all. Before you get started, consider your access to points where you want to put all your devices. Can you even run wires there? I'm lucky in my current home in that it's a ranch and I have access from both the attic and the basement. But my old house would have been extremely challenging for me to install stuff like this -- perhaps impossible. For the most part, you can get "really long cables". I don't know the absolute limitations, as they depend on signal strength, cable gauge and other things, but I would start to question signal integrity once cables get over a length of 35 or 50 feet (speaker cables are probably OK, and I have no problem with long runs of that stuff; it's video and audio signals that I would want to keep reigned in).

Anyway, those are some thoughts. I believe your project is most likely possible, even if cable runs are a challenge. Unfortunately, I don't think you will be able to do it for under $1000. The cables you will need, even cheap ones, will add up quite quickly.

Good luck!

 

[Thaedium]

Oh... Just thought of another thing. You mentioned it was you and a friend moving into a townhouse. So I'm curious, how long do you and your friend plan on living there? I mean, if you are a university student this project might sound great but it is not at all feasible. What happens when you guys part ways ? Who gets what? Unless of course your friend is more then just a friend and you guys plan to spend a good long time together.

I'm not discouraging you from doing this, I think its a great idea and something that'd have the real cool factor and all but at the end of the day is it really practical for you? Thats just something you're going to have to decide.

Also, like Ottomatic said, 2nd Zone is not multi-channel for most of the recievers I've seen. Unless you're looking at buying the recievers comperable to Pioneer Elite SC-09TX (10 channels) I doubt you're going to be able to find one even in the 2 to $3000 range that will handle multi-channel in two zones. The Pioneer Elite SC-09TX is supposedly comming out this winter in the arena of $7000, and you can bet Yamaha or other comperable recievers from other manufacturers are in the same price range. Then again I've heard the Denon avr-5805 can run two zones at 5.1 (can anyone here confirm?). But the Denon avr-5805 also lists its MSRP at $7200... So, unless you can find a heck of a deal, to get the top features you're looking at some real expenses.

 

[jcPanny]

HT systems

I think you will want 2 receivers for your 2 HT systems. The Yamaha RX-V661 or Onkyo 605 are good options in the $4-500 price range. Having 1 of the receivers down stairs w/ a seperate DVD player would simplifiy the wiring complexity and cost.
You might be able to connect all of your audio gear including computers to one receiver and use the zone 2 audio output to route it to the other receiver downstairs.

If you don't mind using the PC for control, devices like the Apple Airport can send a wireless audio stream to the receiver. Otherwise, a Squeeze Box 3 can control the audio steam and Apple TV could do the same for audio and video.

The URC remotes can be purchased with an RF basestation for <$100. Consider using 1 for each system.
http://www.amazon.com/RFS200-PowerPak-Bundle-MasterControl-PowerBlaster/dp/B000FL9E6U/ref=pd_bbs_sr_4/104-5287065-4501554?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1193933265&sr=8-4

Good luck with your ambitious project. After you get the bar installed and fully stocked, you might get "distracted" and forget about all of the A/V gadgets.

 

[Rickster71]

Oh... What happens when you guys part ways ? Who gets what? Unless of course your friend is more then just a friend and you guys plan to spend a good long time together.

Not that there's anything wrong with that!

 

[modernrocko]

What happens when you guys part ways ? Who gets what? Unless of course your friend is more then just a friend and you guys plan to spend a good long time together.

Nope, nothing like that-- we're just friends. I'm going to be the one purchasing all the audio equipment, so I'll be taking that with me. We've signed a one year lease, and we plan to have the bar "finished" by January, but it's going to be a constant work in progress. We're building everything moveable and "easily" deconstructed so that when we decide to move out and part ways, we can get everything apart relatively quickly, so the audio equipment is going to have to be the same type of setup. I'll need to take a look at spots for wire access that'll be somewhat convenient when we do decide to leave, not to mention speaker placement. Once I measure everything I'll post the room dimensions.

Thanks for all the information, you folks really know your stuff! I kind of figured that things would be considerably more expensive than I'd hoped, but that's understandable considering all the big ideas. It's always a fancy price for a fancy setup!

I'll probably end up going with two separate receivers as it sounds like it will ultimately be cheaper for me. I think I'll stick to a stereo setup for the basement as I took another look at it and the room is small enough that surround won't really be needed, especially after we wall off the laundry area.

 

[agarwalro]

This is a ambitious project to say the least. Here is a link that will give you some ideas.

This is the first article of a series on Whole House Wiring Basics.

In addition to the comments in posts above, I do not know of any receiver or pre-pro that can network 2 PCs.

 

[pcefrog]

here 's a suggestion

have you heard of the Sonos Digital Music System??
check it out , you can play music from your computer , on any system. so you could , i think , technically , have your receiver upstairs , working the speakers downstairs........and having the sonos wherever you want..or get the speakers from sonos...place them upstairs and down..
check them out....SONOS.com

 

[Thaedium]

I'm going to be the one purchasing all the audio equipment, so I'll be taking that with me. We've signed a one year lease, and we plan to have the bar "finished" by January, but it's going to be a constant work in progress. We're building everything moveable and "easily" deconstructed so that when we decide to move out and part ways, we can get everything apart relatively quickly, so the audio equipment is going to have to be the same type of setup. I'll need to take a look at spots for wire access that'll be somewhat convenient when we do decide to leave, not to mention speaker placement. Once I measure everything I'll post the room dimensions.

If you want your audio system to reflect the "Moveable and Easily deconstructed" I would advise against the in-wall setup personally. You're in for a 1 year lease, and should you get that setup, I sure you're going to have lots of noise complaints! Might not get the option to renew, heh.

I'll probably end up going with two separate receivers as it sounds like it will ultimately be cheaper for me. I think I'll stick to a stereo setup for the basement as I took another look at it and the room is small enough that surround won't really be needed, especially after we wall off the laundry area.

I have to agree with that decision, the two recievers is a far more flexible route to take. However, you are now slowly starting to move into the direction that I suggestion I made earlier, and that is to go with Floor standing, or Bookshelf speakers.

Another idea might be have the in-wall for just the basement if its cramped, that way you wont have to worry about space consumption down there. And upstairs, you could easily purchase floor-standing or bookshelfs which will provide you with that easily moveable ideal.

Hope this all helps some.

 

[InTheIndustry]

Sonos

pcefrog (my favorite Doors song) is right.

Here is the magic wand that every music lover should have:
www.sonos.com


Sonos is without doubt the BEST whole house audio system available. Nothing can touch it at any price. It's easy to set up: just plug their Sonos bridge into your router and then plug in the other Sonos units into the wall outlets around your house where you want music, connect speakers, and BAM! The Sonos units all detect each other and you're up and running.

$10 a month (price of a cheap CD)and you get unlimited access to Rhapsody online which basically gives you 3 million songs to pick from instantly. You also get unmlimited access to any internet radio station in the world.

I presented Sonos to one of my clients who works @ a Merril Lynch office. He was really gun shy because he's not technology inclined. I set the system up running in his office (took 10 mins) and 5 mins after I put the remote in his hand he had selected AC/DC's top hits and was jamming. He was so pumped he went through the offices telling everone to check out his musc system. People came into the office to look. I sold 3 more whole house systems in 20 mins. NO JOKE! It's the real deal and truely a revolutionary product. You'll never buy another CD again yet have any track ever released.... anywhere. I even found old Led Zepplin BBC radio interviews. We had Chinese food the other night and searched the Asian genre channel, subgenre China and listened to Chinese music while we ate. You can even plug your cable/sat box into it and play your TV throught the house.

Side note: The ZP100 has a 50watt amplifier in it. It's great! I plugged in a pair of RBH Signiture Series 41-SE to try it out and it absolutely jammed.

Enjoy!