Audioholics and objectivity

[pbarach1]

I am disturbed by the plan to turn Audioholics into a store. Although I thoroughly read the description of how Audioholics plans to retain its objectivity, I would be extremely surprised if Audioholics ever posted a negative review of a product that was being sold by Audioholics. Of course, none of us want to see Audioholics or any other store selling poor-quality products, but if the reviews and the store were truly separated from each other, then it would happen now and then that Audioholics would post a negative review of a product that was for sale by Audioholics.

Also, it would be extremely difficult for reviewers who make money from sales at Audioholics to remain objective, despite their best intentions and efforts to do so. This has been demonstrated over and over in medical and psychological research that shows the benefits of double-blind controls. When such procedures are not followed, reviewers' biases affect their judgments. See, for example, Rosenthal, 1968 (http://fcis.oise.utoronto.ca/~daniel_sc/assignment1/1968rosenjacob.html).

 

[davidtwotrees]

Advertising has little effect on my audio choices...

Good points,pba. I subscribe to Stereophile and they certainly review equiptment that is advertised in their magazine. I take it all with a grain of salt. I am not sure who the money people are here, but they do need to make a living. If you had a choice between no audioholics website, and the proposed one, which would you choose? I like this site. The rank and file posters share my general view on audio equiptment. And if you read Stereophile, not all of their reviews are of advertised equiptment. And certainly if you read their ranked equiptment, the majority of it is not from advertisers. Likewise, I would hope not every review on the proposed site would be from paid advertisers. Also, factor in that most mfgrs. are leary of sending gear for reivew.......the reason being that a negative review in print is BAD for business. Heck, the rank and file posters here do as good a job promoting advertised gear from HSU, SVS, RBH, Oppo, and Emotiva as Audiohlics.com does.
So, bottom line for me? As long as the forums are up and running, advertising has very little to do with weather or not I come here.

 

[Tomorrow]

I am disturbed by the plan to turn Audioholics into a store. Although I thoroughly read the description of how Audioholics plans to retain its objectivity, I would be extremely surprised if Audioholics ever posted a negative review of a product that was being sold by Audioholics. Of course, none of us want to see Audioholics or any other store selling poor-quality products, but if the reviews and the store were truly separated from each other, then it would happen now and then that Audioholics would post a negative review of a product that was for sale by Audioholics.

Also, it would be extremely difficult for reviewers who make money from sales at Audioholics to remain objective, despite their best intentions and efforts to do so. This has been demonstrated over and over in medical and psychological research that shows the benefits of double-blind controls. When such procedures are not followed, reviewers' biases affect their judgments. See, for example, Rosenthal, 1968 (http://fcis.oise.utoronto.ca/~daniel_sc/assignment1/1968rosenjacob.html).

This is a difficult question to touch. AH admins are generally pretty nice people. But they also have a business to run. And truly, being ordinary people, they also have their own biases. But I have a little question for you. It touches on the philosophy from which your post derives. Have you ever (EVER) seen a negative review of an audio product from a pro-reviewer? In the rare case that you have, have you ever seen a negative review of any product from any reviewer sponsored fully or in part by that product's manufacturer? I'm pretty darn certain that your answer is "No!". Whether or not those items are sold directly through the reviewer's site is kind of irrelevant in my mind. Advertising or selling, they're still sponsors and they lay down the money that keeps this forum of ours afloat and pays the undoubtedly menial salaries of the staff.

One must read between the lines of reviews and scrutinize measurements, if available, to find kernels of the full truth. As another AH thread recently pointed out, you'll never see a reviewer saying something to the effect of "These loudspeakers perform in a class hundreds of dollars cheaper". It's natural to find the positive nature of the equipment and present that in a review.

I think what you're more likely to find happening is that the equipment sold through AH (and I admit ignorance to what, when, how...haven't read anything about it) is that the AH staff will only sell equipment that they themselves deem worthy, so inaccuracies and misleading reviews do NOT become an issue.

 

[avaserfi]

I think what you're more likely to find happening is that the equipment sold through AH (and I admit ignorance to what, when, how...haven't read anything about it) is that the AH staff will only sell equipment that they themselves deem worthy, so inaccuracies and misleading reviews do NOT become an issue.

I think this is a very important point. Part of the reason this stores being created (admittedly from my limited knowledge) is because it seems the AH team is a little sick of seeing all the bull**** that is being put out on various stores. Not just knowledge but products and from what I do know of this store it is being specifically designed to deal with all this crap so you know buying at AH means you are buying quality and will be getting great customer service as well as advice in purchasing.

What is the reason so many of us (mainly referring to those who have heard the product or dealt with) recommend SVS, for example? Not only do they sell a great product, but they also have amazing customer support and will not oversell you this is what it seems the AH store seems to be trying to do and if done well, which I am hoping as the AH team seems to be pretty on top of things, it will be a good thing in my honest opinion.

edited for those who don't like cussing

 

[Adam]

I see that the auto-censors don't catch every word...

 

[mike c]

i believe AH once said that they won't let products they don't believe in to advertise. hence, you won't see a bad review of a product they don't like advertising.

 

[mtrycrafts]

edited for those who don't like cussing

And those who don't mind, what is the decipher code to read it?

 

[avaserfi]

And those who don't mind, what is the decipher code to read it?

You think the new Audioholics silver interconnects are amazing rolleyes, just try dipping them in BULLpoop .

We all know there are Jedi on the Audioholics council so of course bullsith....what else could it be?

 

[Tomorrow]

We all know there are Jedi on the Audioholics council so of course bullsith....what else could it be?

Why of course. It could be....Bull Shiite (a bada$$ Muslim).

 

[mike c]

forgot to ask: i was unaware there was an AH store planned ... what are they selling?

 

[majorloser]

forgot to ask: i was unaware there was an AH store planned ... what are they selling?

From what I understand, a little bit of everything, but only the best.

http://www.audioholics.com/news/editorials/audioholics-storefront-2013-breaking-the-rules

 

[pbarach1]

Have you ever (EVER) seen a negative review of an audio product from a pro-reviewer? In the rare case that you have, have you ever seen a negative review of any product from any reviewer sponsored fully or in part by that product's manufacturer? I'm pretty darn certain that your answer is "No!". Whether or not those items are sold directly through the reviewer's site is kind of irrelevant in my mind. Advertising or selling, they're still sponsors and they lay down the money that keeps this forum of ours afloat and pays the undoubtedly menial salaries of the staff.

One must read between the lines of reviews and scrutinize measurements, if available, to find kernels of the full truth.

I would direct you to John Atkinson's measurements of the $28,000 Zanden CD equipment in Stereophile (versus Michael Fremer's ecstatic subjective appraisal published in the same article). The manufacturer supplied a defective piece of equipment--(for $28K!)--and a correctly built replacement unit still left lots to be desired. I'd call it a negative review by a pro-reviewer:
http://www.stereophile.com/cdplayers/1106zanden/index.html
Zanden doesn't advertise in the magazine (they have only one dealer/distributer in North America).

Stereophile also notoriously gave bad reviews to Carver's m1.0t amplifier and Amazing Loudspeakers over 20 years ago, then could not distinguish between the Carver amp and a tube amp that they had previously praised. I don't know if Carver ever advertised in their magazine. BTW I have a Carver m1.0t and it sounds great with my B&W 704's.

Since there are very few negative reviews of audio equipment published in any magazine, you do have to wonder if magazines are simply not interested in publishing such reviews, are afraid of litigation, or are predisposed to like whatever manufacturers send them... Surely not all audio equipment sounds good<g>. It would be nice to have reviews that didn't require guesswork to determine their true opinions. Such reviews would be a good cure for upgrade-itis...

 

[Thaedium]

Surely not all audio equipment sounds good<g>. It would be nice to have reviews that didn't require guesswork to determine their true opinions. Such reviews would be a good cure for upgrade-itis...

They could always start reviewing HTIB more often

No but seriously though, of course there will be some biases, thats just the way things are. At the end of the day, AH is here to generate revenue for the work they do. Broadening into another arena of what they do is a logical step, and will have certain things happen based on what generates further revenue. No BS is a great mission statement, but even those with the best of intentions will colour their words now and again to make things seem a little more then they are - whether its insidious, or honest bias is irrelevant. Like others have said, you just have to take it all with a grain of salt.

I'm all for AH doing it... now I can check out the forums, go through the members home systems forum and get the upgraditis flaring and then with a mere click of another button be in the store and shopping.

 

[rushwj]

i recall reading somewhere once that stereophile addressed this issue by saying that i tried not to review things it didn't like (or at least chose not to publish negative reviews, citing space in the magazine as the issue and that people did not buy the magazine to read a 4-page bash on a product they'll likely not buy, but instead to give the reader some direction by "recommending" products through their reviews).

that being said, i don't subscribe to any audio magazines, only peruse them at bookstores and occasionally their online sites - i also frequent audioholics and avsforum. i'm certainly not defending the reviews (especially the crazy ones of uber high-end snake oil), just passing on what i've read as their response.

as for the AH storefront, it could be interesting and i'm looking forward to seeing how it's implemented. there's obviously a concern for objectivity of the reviews and them just becoming a "pawn" to the storefront, but i believe that at the same time they should be able to offer a wide range of products that they believe are high quality products that they've reviewed in a positive manner (plenty of good products out there that AH has reviewed).

i'm interested to see what the internet direct companies that AH is fond of (and myself included as many of my components are from ID companies) will do (for example, av123, emotiva, outlawaudio, hsu, axiom, blue jean cables, dvi gear...to name a few). would the storefront prices be higher or the same compared to the ID companies price? time will tell how this all works out, but i'm interested to see.

 

[Seth=L]

You can bet that there will be much more forum activity when the store starts getting more business.

 

[gene]

I understand your concerns, but anyone spending more than 10 minutes on our site realizes the detail and integrity of our content is among the best in the industry and the reputation of this site built upon from the past 9+ years is based solely on TRUTH being a marketable commodity and our readers keeping us honest by helping us grow our community of enthusiasts looking for more than the typical glowing press release style reviews and articles found in most of the print magazines and online home theater based websites.

Does it take us more time and resources to do such detailed articles? You betcha. But at the end of the day, I can sleep well at night knowing that myself and staff put forth truly great content rich reviews and tech articles on our site that passes my NO BS engineering litmus test.

We are doing our best to select products we feel offer a great value to our readers from some of the most reputable brands in the industry. We will be offering a wide diversity of snake oil free products for your shopping pleasure but realize not all of the great stuff we review will be available for sale on our e-store or affiliate partners.

It's important to remember to judge whether or not our pros/cons in a review will affect you the user when deciding if the product is right for your needs. Good or bad however, the reviews will have an integrated "Buy it Now" link to our e-store if the Audioholics store carries that product. We do this now with many of our affiliates that we direct traffic to as you can see in the following example of a projector that got a lukewarm review that we integrate "Buy it Now" links back to our affiliate partner:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/projectors/mitsubishi-hc1500-dlp/

Or this Velodyne subwoofer (one of our long term advertisers) that faired only average in our review:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/velodyne-dps-10

For our official statement about our up and coming e-store that should address your concerns, please see the following article:

Audioholics e-store Breaking the Rules

 

[Tomorrow]

I understand your concerns, but anyone spending more than 10 minutes on our site realizes the detail and integrity of our content is among the best in the industry and the reputation of this site built upon from the past 9+ years is based solely on TRUTH being a marketable commodity and our readers keeping us honest by helping us grow our community of enthusiasts looking for more than the typical glowing press release style reviews and articles found in most of the print magazines and online home theater based websites.

Does it take us more time and resources to do such detailed articles? You betcha. But at the end of the day, I can sleep well at night knowing that myself and staff put forth truly great content rich reviews and tech articles on our site that passes my NO BS engineering litmus test.

We are doing our best to select products we feel offer a great value to our readers from some of the most reputable brands in the industry. We will be offering a wide diversity of snake oil free products for your shopping pleasure but realize not all of the great stuff we review will be available for sale on our e-store or affiliate partners.

It's important to remember to judge whether or not our pros/cons in a review will affect you the user when deciding if the product is right for your needs. Good or bad however, the reviews will have an integrated "Buy it Now" link to our e-store if the Audioholics store carries that product. We do this now with many of our affiliates that we direct traffic to as you can see in the following example of a projector that got a lukewarm review that we integrate "Buy it Now" links back to our affiliate partner:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/projectors/mitsubishi-hc1500-dlp/

Or this Velodyne subwoofer (one of our long term advertisers) that faired only average in our review:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/subwoofers/velodyne-dps-10

For our official statement about our up and coming e-store that should address your concerns, please see the following article:

Audioholics e-store Breaking the Rules

It sounds like a great venture. However I have one word of caution, Gene. You have detailed the total separation of the technocratic side (you guys) from the store-front side for reasons of integrity. (Separation of church and state, lol. ) But you have also extolled the virtues of the sales side and why it would be a great thing for us consumers, even if lowest pricing is not the goal. This store represents a complete unknown, a new entity if you will, with no record of performance toward customer service and tech support. So not only is it unattached to you gentlemen who we generally trust, it sounds as though equipment will not be aggressively priced, and it has no track record upon which to base its touted reason for use...extended warranty and customer service.

I believe the general idea is a good one and I'd give it my thumbs up. I only note the above as a reason for less than totally enthusiastic support from Audioholic fans.

 

[Davemcc]

The issues raised here generally fall under the category of "conflict of interest" and I'd like to examine this a little. Let me open by saying that the integrity of the Audioholics staff is not in question. They obviously recognize this conflict and have adopted the separation of tech/editorial and sales to mitigate the fallout from such conflict.

Having said that, let me suggest that the conflict is inherent to the business model. It is perhaps admirable that the Audioholics staff "are more interested in the industry than they are about making a profit". That is how it should be for an unbiased, consumer magazine, online or otherwise. The conflict arrives here: "From day one Will and Tadd, our development partners, assured us that plenty of venture capital was being placed on the table". By definition, venture capitalists are more interested in profit than any particular industry. Herein lies the conflict, inherent and plain to see.

The following describes a best case scenario for the future, as well as the past. "Audioholics was begun, and continues to remain, a technocratic organization. We have never been at the behest of a group of marketing or PR people. We’ve never had a group of bean-counters telling us how to run things. We have always directed operations from the top – a top composed of engineers and technical staff." I think this is exactly what everybody wants to see going into the future.

I just hope that this forum doesn't suffer in the process. I really like this forum. I've rarely missed a day here, even if it's just to see what Adam, avaserfi or Seth=L has to say about a particular topic or to look at Robbie's photographs. Nor do I wish to see the editorial content suffer. I place my faith in the Audioholics staff to see that doesn't happen. As I said, their integrity is not in question.

Personally, I hope Gene, Clint and their venture capitalist partners realize all the profit they ever hoped. Profit is a good word in my book. The success of the business model will determine this. But knowing there is a conflict, taking steps to mitigate the conflict and having a frank and open discussion about it in advance of the store opening is a good sign for Audioholics and the Audioholics store. I wish you all the best and remain a committed Audioholic until I get banned.

 

[Audioholics]

Good feedback, and we are attentive to the warnings. What impressed us most about this whole process was that the operations end of this partnership was so receptive to how we felt a store should be run. This gave us the confidence to move forward, knowing that they were trusting us to design a store that would appeal to consumers and have proficient and superb level of technical support.

The wait and see approach is a good idea for our regulars - also note that we aren't positioning ourselves as the lowest price in town, but rather are selling to people who will appreciate seeing some brands they can't get anywhere else and also value-added warranties, support and package deals. Some of the brands we are talking to will be all but exclusive to our store - which is exciting. This pricing is also the only way we'll be able to carry (now and down the road) certain brands that we wish to inventory.

 

[fmw]

I think people fail to understand that the mainstream products that most people buy are designed competently and work as they should. There isn't any reason to expect to read a negative review about a product that works as it should.

A review should point out operating characteristics that appeal to the reviewer or do not. That's good. It isn't negative to suggest that something could work better. As an example, I don't like the fact that so many DVD makers fail to provide SACD playback via HDMI. Having it available only through analog doesn't make the player incompetent or negative but it does make it a hassle for someone like me with an all HDMI system. I would like to see that sort of thing pointed out in a review. What may be an issue for me may not be for someone else.

Measurements are good too because they sometimes add more information than the manufacturers do. The manufacturers express measurements in a way that makes the product appeal to the greatest number of people, not to the knowledgeable. I'd rather see numbers for the knowledgeable.

The kinds of reviews published in Stereophile and TAS are mostly nonsense. As a former audiophile who was once involved that sort of thing, I can promise you these magazines aren't worth reading for the information they provide. Read them as literature for entertainment. Try to ignore the content the best you can.

The issue of negative reviews has a sinister side to it as well. Let me give you an example. Many years ago Crown International, an Indiana based manufacturer of high quality pro audio amplifiers developed a stereo power amp for the high end consumer audio business. It featured 250 watts per channel, a ruler flat frequency response from 20hz to way beyond audibility, inaudible distortion and the ability to drive 2 ohm loads at full power. It weighed in at 85 lbs. Naturally, it performed and "sounded" like other amps in that category. But it was priced way below the likes of Krell and other products against which it was intended to compete.

The Stereophile reviewer couldn't stand the fact that a company that makes pro audio gear would have the arrogance to enter his world with a product priced at this level. So he panned it in the review. Since it cost less than other similar amps, he rated it lower. The effect was that the product failed and Crown never again entered the high end consumer audio business. They still make amplifiers for the pro audio business and are many times larger and more successful than the high end audio equipment manufacturers.

Consumers were denied a product that performed exactly the same as others at a lower price. Subsequent measurements and blind listening tests confirmed that the amp performed exactly like the Krell at a significantly lower price. Inspection showed that the quality of components used in the manufacture (made in U.S.A. by the way) of the unit were of the same quality. Consumers lost over a biased subjective review. My point is that negative reviews are only useful if they are based on truth.

Can you believe a positive review of an audio interconnect cable that costs thousands of dollars or a 5 lb. power cord? I'm here to tell you no. You can't. I don't care who writes it or publishes it. I know better. I've done the blind tests myself. Positive reviews can be just as harmful as negative ones when they don't address the truth.

Sorry for the rant. I just wanted to add some perspective to the issue of negative reviews. I wish the Audioholics crew much success with the on-line store. I've been an e-merchant for 10 years and I know how hard it is to do. I'm sure they will get it done well.