Gordon Brockhouse talks to Sunfire’s Bob Carver (AMPLIFIERS)

[OttoMatic]

No, 20A are not more dangerous. But, your electric panel will look like an industrial plant with rows of breakers

Why, though? Implemeting all circuits in a house as 20A rather than 15A won't cause you to have any more breakers than you already would. They'll just be marked with a "20" instead of a "15".

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Why, though? Implemeting all circuits in a house as 20A rather than 15A won't cause you to have any more breakers than you already would. They'll just be marked with a "20" instead of a "15".

Regardless of how the breakers look, I am definitely going for all 20A circuits in my next home. I want the biggest baddest A/C. The biggest baddest hot water tank. And 20A circuits.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Why, though? Implemeting all circuits in a house as 20A rather than 15A won't cause you to have any more breakers than you already would. They'll just be marked with a "20" instead of a "15".

You are right. I read his post as having each outlet on a single breaker, don't know why my brain did that interpretation.
But, replacing each circuit will not, of course as it is a one to one change.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Actually, I have tripped my breaker numerous times before when I was using my SharpVision projector while the air conditioner was on and all my components were on. All the lights and electricity went out. I have not had this problem since I replaced my projector with the Mitsubishi DLP HDTV. But you never know. I might one day buy a HD projector.

Hmmm. I think "industrial plant with rows of breakers" will look pretty cool.

Interesting. Which breaker is the AC on? Is that a room AC or the house AC? They certainly should be on a different breaker.
Once that is off, it should be way different.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Interesting. Which breaker is the AC on? Is that a room AC or the house AC? They certainly should be on a different breaker.
Once that is off, it should be way different.

Oh, the AC is on a different breaker. It was still on when the lights went off.
I just mentioned it because, well, heck, I don't know.

 

[jonnythan]

Oh, the AC is on a different breaker. It was still on when the lights went off.
I just mentioned it because, well, heck, I don't know.

You just wanted us to know that you have priorities.

Good man!

 

[Seth=L]

Oh, the AC is on a different breaker. It was still on when the lights went off.
I just mentioned it because, well, heck, I don't know.

If this is so, the AC had nothing to do with the Breaker tripping. The breaker trips when a particular circuit is overloaded. How many breakers did you have to flip to turn everthing that was shut off back on, you may have too many electronic components (lights, appliances, a/v gear) connected to one circuit.

 

[Rickster71]

Do you think the builder would think I'm crazy if I said to him, "I want every single outlet in my house to be 20-amps"?
Are 20-amps more dangerous than 15-amps?

The builder won't mind.
As long as you don't mind the added expense.
20 amp breakers cost more than 15's.
The cost of 12 awg wire to accommodate the 20 amp circuits, is higher.
You might have to resize your main panel.
Ask the electrician to work up a price comparison, 15 amp vs 20 amp.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...How many breakers did you have to flip to turn everthing that was shut off back on...

Just one 15A breaker.
But if it were one 20A breaker, it would not happen, right?

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

The builder won't mind.
As long as you don't mind the added expense.
20 amp breakers cost more than 15's.
The cost of 12 awg wire to accommodate the 20 amp circuits, is higher.
You might have to resize your main panel.
Ask the electrician to work up a price comparison, 15 amp vs 20 amp.

For a 4,000 s.f. custom-built house, how much more $$ do you think for the 20A instead of 15A?

 

[Seth=L]

Just one 15A breaker.
But if it were one 20A breaker, it would not happen, right?

20 amp breaker just increases the power capability of that circuit, it isn't a garranty that the breaker won't flip. The reason your breaker flipped is because too many things where on that breaker running at high amperage at once. If you had lights, fans, and A/V stuff on that circuit and you had a transient in your home theater that would cause the breaker to flip. You should probably have your home theater itself on at least one seperate 15 amp circuit, at the very least. I would want two 20 amp circuits (so you could put 2 Acurus on one breaker and two on another). Then try to distribute the remaining components evenly among those two breakers.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Just one 15A breaker.
But if it were one 20A breaker, it would not happen, right?

Obviously you reached that circuit's breaking point

 

[mtrycrafts]

For a 4,000 s.f. custom-built house, how much more $$ do you think for the 20A instead of 15A?

You are probably looking at 10 general circuits for that size, minimum, 15A. You really don't need it on lighting and bedroom circuits, unless a BR will have a high demand. Maybe $150?

Family room, living room, dining room should be all 20A and code does requires some in there.

 

[Rickster71]

Do you think the builder would think I'm crazy if I said to him, "I want every single outlet in my house to be 20-amps"?

Hi DefTech,
Sorry I couldn't respond sooner, due to the constraints of work, I'm not always near a puter.
I wouldn't want to armchair quarterback a price per square ft. answer. (To change all receptacles to 20amp circuits)
They are, for the most part inaccurate, especially since you mentioned it's a custom home.
There are just too many variables, that I'm not aware of, but the site electrician is. I'd just be guessing.
By variables(here are just a few) I mean, number of Hi-hats, ceiling heights, size of bedrooms, type of HVAC?
Assuming you have a 200 amp panel, how close to it's ampacity are you? If too close, the panel would need to be upgraded.

IMHO all bedrooms should be on their own 20amp circuit. The reason: The NEC's definition of a 'bedroom' hasn't changed. In the old days a 1950's bedroom had a light and a wind-up alarm clock. In 2007, a bedroom could have, a TV, a computer, a stereo system, a lighted makeup mirror, a ceiling fan, and a 1800 watt hair dryer. All on one circuit, and shared with another bedroom.

I could write pages as to why it's best to ask the site electrician. In a nut shell, anyone without the set of plans in front of them, is just guessing!
Good Luck
Rick

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

...Assuming you have a 200 amp panel, how close to it's ampacity are you? If too close, the panel would need to be upgraded...IMHO all bedrooms should be on their own 20amp circuit.

Wow. I'm kind of clueless---just in case anyone was wondering.
I'm not even sure if I have a 200 amp panel. Will it say on the electric panel "200 amp"?

I'm thinking the A/C, Washer/Dryer, & Ovens are 20 amp outlets, right? The rest of the house outlets are usually 15 amps?

So would a 200 amp panel have like four 20-amp circuits and eight 15-amp circuits?

All I know is that when I open up that panel, it seems like there are 30 switches or something.

So if I were to install (custom build from scratch) all 20-amps outlets throughout the entire 4,000 S.F. house, would I need like a 400-amp panel (20 x 20-amps), 600-amp panel (30 x 20-amps), or three 200-amp panels?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Wow. I'm kind of clueless---just in case anyone was wondering.
I'm not even sure if I have a 200 amp panel. Will it say on the electric panel "200 amp"?

I'm thinking the A/C, Washer/Dryer, & Ovens are 20 amp outlets, right? The rest of the house outlets are usually 15 amps?

So would a 200 amp panel have like four 20-amp circuits and eight 15-amp circuits?

All I know is that when I open up that panel, it seems like there are 30 switches or something.

So if I were to install (custom build from scratch) all 20-amps outlets throughout the entire 4,000 S.F. house, would I need like a 400-amp panel (20 x 20-amps), 600-amp panel (30 x 20-amps), or three 200-amp panels?

You can tell by the amp size of the main breaker at the meter. Unless your house is full or extraordinary electrical equipment, 200A should be plenty. After all, the panel is not sized by adding up all the equipments demands as they will not be on at the same time.
Code spells out what is needed for A/C. washer, dryer, dishwasher, etc, have their own individual circuits, not shared.
I don't see a real need for 20A in bedrooms unless they too will be loaded with electrical components. 15A is rated for 1440 watts. Are you going to load br with such needs? Bathrooms do need a 20A for such items as hair dryers, unless it is built in with its own breaker, I believe.
custom homes may need special attention if there are known needs, or foreseen needs which is difficult.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

15A is rated for 1440 watts.

Oh, No wonder my big microwave trips the circuit from time to time!

So is a 20A rated for like 2000 watts or more?

I noticed that each of the 15A circuit controls a few outlets, right? So if my HT room has 4 electrical outlets, but they are all controlled or shared by one circuit (all outlets in room go out when tripped), then my entire room is only rated for a max of 1440 watts? Yikes!

My Acurus amps: [300 wpc x 3 @ 4 ohms] x 4 = 3600 watts max
My DT built-in amps: 1800 watts + 1800 watts + 150 watts = 3750 watts
Total = 7350 watts on one 15A circuit?

 

[jonnythan]

If those amps all put out their maximum wattage into any speakers you have all at once, the speakers would explode and your head would cave in, LOL

 

[Rickster71]

I don't see a real need for 20A in bedrooms unless they too will be loaded with electrical components. 15A is rated for 1440 watts.

Unless your using the new math, 15A = 1800 watts, not 1440.
A 15A breaker trip at 1800 watts.

Also, I misspoke as to the bedroom on a 20A overcurrent device.
I meant to say "A bedroom should be on its own circuit."
Sorry for any added confusion.
My reasoning still stands, a TV, and a hair dryer in a bedroom, will trip a 15 amp breaker.

 

[OttoMatic]

Oh, No wonder my big microwave trips the circuit from time to time!

So is a 20A rated for like 2000 watts or more?

I noticed that each of the 15A circuit controls a few outlets, right? So if my HT room has 4 electrical outlets, but they are all controlled or shared by one circuit (all outlets in room go out when tripped), then my entire room is only rated for a max of 1440 watts? Yikes!

My Acurus amps: [300 wpc x 3 @ 4 ohms] x 4 = 3600 watts max
My DT built-in amps: 1800 watts + 1800 watts + 150 watts = 3750 watts
Total = 7350 watts on one 15A circuit?

You can generally figure how much power a given circuit using Ohm's law, or a derivative thereof.

P = I*V

where P = power, I = current and V = voltage

In the US, we have V = 120; I will be the amount of current allowed through your breaker, in this case, say, 15 amps.

Then,

P = I * V
P = 15*120 = 1,800 watts

Similarly, for a 20 A circuit, you can support (continuously, without blowing the breaker) 2,400 watts.

As you note, many things are on a single circuit. If you're running a microwave and a hair dryer on the same circuit, chances are good that you'll pop that circuit breaker.

Also as you note, your audio system, all on one breaker, can also do it. Of coruse, you won't get all 7,350 W out of your system at once, but during large transients, you can pop the circuit (esp if other things are on that circuit as well).

Sometimes I'm surprised that I've never popped a circuit breaker. I used to dim the lights nicely when my IB sub was powered off the living room circuit, but now that it's moved to a basement circuit, I have no troubles.