+10 db LFE for multichannel in?

[mike c]

i've read a lot of posts that say that the PCM/analog audio/HDMI multichannel in audio we are getting from our HD formats is mistakenly -10db as compared to the DTS formats we are used to on DVD's.

people say they set their LFE's +10db on multichannel in (NOT on the channel levels, because thay would make your LFE too hot for all the other sources)

my question is:

how many people here add 10db to their LFE's for multichannel in?

 

[bass addict]

The -10 db problems have been coming from receivers that do not properly implement the LFE channel via PCM. My old Pioneer 84 before the update, did not implement the LFE channel correctly and this resulted in the -10 db LFE output. Anyone using the analogs have not reported this problem. My new Onkyo shows an even calibration of the LFE channel through HDMI without having to add 10db's.

 

[avaserfi]

The -10 db problems have been coming from receivers that do not properly implement the LFE channel via PCM. My old Pioneer 84 before the update, did not implement the LFE channel correctly and this resulted in the -10 db LFE output. Anyone using the analogs have not reported this problem. My new Onkyo shows an even calibration of the LFE channel through HDMI without having to add 10db's.

I think bass addict is dead on with this. I have not noticed any lack of bass from my LFE via PCM on my Denon 3806 with the source being my PS3 for both BD and video games. So I wouldn't worry about it unless you are noticing a problem.

 

[mike c]

i just checked the settings on my receiver (2307):

there's something called "ext. in subwoofer level" -> is that it?

mine's set at +15db, but I don't remember setting that.

 

[avaserfi]

i just checked the settings on my receiver (2307):

there's something called "ext. in subwoofer level" -> is that it?

mine's set at +15db, but I don't remember setting that.

I am pretty sure that comes into play when you use the analog inputs on the back of your AVR, +15dB is the default setting on my Denon and probably is on yours too.

 

[j_garcia]

Yes, the problem is generally with analog and it is the PLAYER that is at fault (bad bass management), not the receiver. Some receiver and player manufacturers have added features to compensate for this situation (Denon has done so on both players and receivers). DD and DTS have an automatic offset as part of their coding, while music does not, and that is why the error occurs. Are you saying this also occurs with LPCM via HDMI? That is news to me...and it would suck if that is the case.

 

[supervij]

Yup. When it comes to using the multi-channel analogs out from the DVD player and into the receiver, I gotta do the +10 dB offset for the sub too. It was very confusing when I first started listening to SACDs and DVD-As: I couldn't understand why there was so little bottom end. It was actually j_garcia who told me about the 10 dB offset. I applied it, and voila -- shiny music from here on in.

cheers,
supervij

 

[bass addict]

DVDA/SACD did suffer from this when using the analog in's. That is what the external sub level was for on receivers. It wasn't necessarily specific to the analogs but more the mastering of the hi res music sources. I have used the analog ins and HDMI w/ my HDA1 with no difference in sub level.

I would say it could vary from player to player however. When using the analogs the player is doing the decoding and sending it to the receiver. So all bass management is being handled at the source. If it is being implemened improperly this could very well provide poor results.

 

[j_garcia]

Yes it is specific to hires audio because neither is encoded with this functionality - the levels remain the same as mastered, while DD and DTS have this offset - I don't recall what exactly what it was for, but it is there. It wasn't even widely known at the consumer level before SACD and DVD-A became available. Prior to a few years ago, pretty much no receivers had an external sub level adjustment specifically for this. Mine doesn't have this, though I can adjust the channel levels for the multichannel inputs. My Denon 2200 had a setting to compensate for it while my 2900 does not.

The HD-A1 cannot play DVD-A or SACD tracks, so that doesn't tell us anything.

 

[obscbyclouds]

Just to add to what others have said, I also previously used a +8-10dB boost on my Oppo when it was connected to ye'old Sony reciever via multichannel analog. This was mostly for listening to DVD-A and SACD's, as I used an optical connection for DTS/DD movies.

With my Onko 605 and HDMI connections, I no longer have to do this, and the first time I turned it on, I had ultimate bass due to a +10 setting in the Oppo channel trim menu!

 

[mike c]

so to confirm ...

do the following suffer from -10db LFE?

analog outs? yes
LPCM HDMI from PS3 or HD DVD?
bitstream from DVD player via HDMI?
LPCM HDMI from DVD player?

 

[avaserfi]

do the following suffer from -10db LFE?

analog outs? yes
LPCM HDMI from PS3 or HD DVD?
bitstream from DVD player via HDMI?
LPCM HDMI from DVD player?

From what I have noticed with any HDMI inputs via both LPCM and bitstream there isn't the low LFE problem. This is from BD/DVD/Games on my ps3 and DVD/SACD/DVD-A on my Oppo.

 

[supervij]

So if playing DD or DTS or regular ol' CDs through the analog outs, the 10 dB offset for the sub level isn't needed?

cheers,
supervij

 

[j_garcia]

So if playing DD or DTS or regular ol' CDs through the analog outs, the 10 dB offset for the sub level isn't needed?

I believe that is correct, since the player will still handle them correctly. For DD/DTS, it is part of the decoding and it doesn't matter if it is done by the player or the reicever and for CDs, there is no .1 channel.

 

[supervij]

Okay . . . to sum up (cos I'm getting an ice cream headache just thinking about it), when using the multi-channel analog outputs from player to receiver --

1. SACD and DVD-A require the +10 dB boost, and
2. DD/DTS/CDs do not.

I don't quite understand why. You say it's part of the decoding, and I believe you, but I would have assumed that if the offset is required for one thing, it would be required for everything coming out of those m/c analog outs.

When I do play DD/DTS/CDs using the m/c analog outs, I don't get the monster bass that the +10 dB should give, assuming the offset isn't needed. So I'm still confused. That tears it. I'm calling Oppo!

cheers,
supervij

 

[j_garcia]

I think it is more of an oversight when they came up with the specifications for SACD and DVD-A for the hardware manufacturers. Since it took place behind the scenes for DD/DTS, it wasn't really taken into account for hires audio - someone made a mistake basically.

 

[supervij]

Well, I got an e-mail from my beloved Oppo, telling me to give j_garcia a big ol' smooch on his noggin, cos his brain is just crammed with audioholic goodness.

Okay, I'm paraphrasing. Here's what they said. And I quote: "Generally you will not need the same offset for Dolby Digital, DTS and CD audio sources." Sigh. Which means, of course, I've to get back to my gear and RE-calibrate.

Hey, j, I never doubted you for a second, honest.

cheers,
supervij