Audio Critic's Ten Biggest Lies

[mtrycrafts]

Anyone that might know.. There is a lot of stuff they didn't cover. I was just wondering if they made another one with more lies.

SheepStar

Oh, not that I am aware or have seen from them, at least not that was published on paper since now he is on the net only. Actually, nothing on his web either, not a follow up.

 

[mtrycrafts]

You are incorrect.

Mtry assumed incorrectly, that the tank surface temperature will remain high enough to prevent condensation. That is an incorrect assumption, and one that the plumber cannot arbitrarily make.

The ONLY time I have had unlimited hot water is with a direct fired oil burner, and that luxury decays with time as scale builds up on the inside of the exchanger over time as well as soot and oxide on the outer surfaces. Typical 40 gallon gas or electric hot water heaters can be run cold, especially if there are no water restrictors in the shower head, if you have a jacuzzi type tub, or if you have several teenage girls.

If you ever have had occasion to run out of hot water (I believe all humans have at one time or another), why would you assume that the tank wall temperature remained at 120 to 140 F????? Think about it, it's water cooled...from a source that's typically at 50 F.

Note: It strikes me that most of you may not know what dewpoint really is. It is a measure of the humidity content of the air, it's just represented as a temperature. If the dewpoint of the air is 60 F, that just means that there is enough moisture in the air that a surface at 60 F will condense moisture, but above that it will not. If you increase the humidity, the dewpoint temperature will increase.

In my example, the result of combustion of gas on the stove creates an exhaust stream which has ADDITIONAL moisture within...one of the byproducts of gas burning is water... The dew point of the exhaust of the gas is higher as a result. This means that even though the pot temperature exceeds the dewpoint of the kitchen air, it is below that of the moisture laden gas stream combustion products. For a simpler example of this, slowly blow hot breath on a mirror... before you do so, there is no visible condensation on the surface, when you breath, there is. This is because the dew point of your breath is above the surface temperature of the mirror.



Again, that is incorrect. Rust is iron oxide. It requires only oxygen to grow, air is 1/5th oxygen. A wet one does indeed accelerate the process, and that acceleration is what the plumber wished to prevent. And not only does water accelerate the process, water at 120 to 140 F REALLY accelerates the process until the heat dries out the rest of the water. I would worry about the weld seams the most, as the tank metal immediately next to the weld bead will be the first place rust occurs. This because of the temperature the metal went through during the welding. Even stainless can rust at the welds because of the weld heat driving carbon.


As to your "old wives tale"...Working with fiberglass cloth is indeed messy, aggravating, problematic with regard to breathing concerns, and something I agree most people would prefer not to do.

But not the impetus for the plumber's explanation. It is not a conspiracy.

Cheers, John

Not all ground water is at 50F Some are 65+
No, I didn't account for the cold climates and running completely out of any hot water.
And, even if the cold water is coming in, heater is running, the internal water is mixing as it is used. I seriously doubt, could be mistaken though, that your girls will not turn off the faucet well before the shower reaches 50F or 70F perhaps, or even higher.
No, I don't remember running out of hot water below 105F on the problem heater or 120 on the new heater, even on laundry day although that usually uses warm or cold water. At 2.5gal/min shower heads, 130F tempered with cold lasts a long time, but that's just me


How would the external blanket retain moisture more that the internal blanket does already, whatever is on the inside. The escape routs are the same practically, except for a couple of support tapes to the top to hold the blanket from sliding down. I am just too dense to see.

 

[majorloser]

Not all ground water is at 50F Some are 65+
No, I didn't account for the cold climates and running completely out of any hot water.
And, even if the cold water is coming in, heater is running, the internal water is mixing as it is used. I seriously doubt, could be mistaken though, that your girls will not turn off the faucet well before the shower reaches 50F or 70F perhaps, or even higher.
No, I don't remember running out of hot water below 105F on the problem heater or 120 on the new heater, even on laundry day although that usually uses warm or cold water. At 2.5gal/min shower heads, 130F tempered with cold lasts a long time, but that's just me


How would the external blanket retain moisture more that the internal blanket does already, whatever is on the inside. The escape routs are the same practically, except for a couple of support tapes to the top to hold the blanket from sliding down. I am just too dense to see.

Finally something I know a little about.

Ground water in Florida is over 27C (+80F) year round. In my area we use surface water for our potable water supply. During the Summer months it is normal for water to be between 30C & 35C (86F & 95F). By the time it reaches the home tap it can be even higher if the water service line is shallow buried. Add to that that most hot water heaters in Florida are in the garage and the air temp in the garage can be well over 100F..........

I have had customers call and complain that the City hooked their home up to the hot water main and forgot to hook up the cold water line.

Some people (like me) have timers on our electric water heaters that shut them off during times of no use. An extra layer of insulation on the tank helps maintain the internal temp during the "off" hours.

As far as corrosion of pipes and plumbing fixtures...
The ability of water to corrode a material is directly related to the TDS (total disolved solids) in the water, pH of the water, alkalinity, calcium hardness and temperature. This is usually expressed as the LSI (Langelier Saturation Index) or RSI (Ryznar Stability Index). These indexes indicate whether a water is corrosive or scale forming (calcium carbonate). It is in everybody's best interest for domestic potable water to be slightly scale forming. This will prevent the destruction of plumbing fixtures and pipe. But more importantly will prevent releasing potentially dangerous copper and lead into the water.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Finally something I know a little about.

Ground water in Florida is over 27C (+80F) year round. In my area we use surface water for our potable water supply. During the Summer months it is normal for water to be between 30C & 35C (86F & 95F). By the time it reaches the home tap it can be even higher if the water service line is shallow buried. Add to that that most hot water heaters in Florida are in the garage and the air temp in the garage can be well over 100F..........

I have had customers call and complain that the City hooked their home up to the hot water main and forgot to hook up the cold water line.

Some people (like me) have timers on our electric water heaters that shut them off during times of no use. An extra layer of insulation on the tank helps maintain the internal temp during the "off" hours.

As far as corrosion of pipes and plumbing fixtures...
The ability of water to corrode a material is directly related to the TDS (total disolved solids) in the water, pH of the water, alkalinity, calcium hardness and temperature. This is usually expressed as the LSI (Langelier Saturation Index) or RSI (Ryznar Stability Index). These indexes indicate whether a water is corrosive or scale forming (calcium carbonate). It is in everybody's best interest for domestic potable water to be slightly scale forming. This will prevent the destruction of plumbing fixtures and pipe. But more importantly will prevent releasing potentially dangerous copper and lead into the water.

Oh, great
My ground water is not as hot as yours but warmer than his, and your area plumber would have an idea. John is not so lucky, it seems, especially in wintertime, ice comes out the hot water line after the girls drain the hot water.
But, the corrosion we were discussing is on the outside of the water tank itself not inside in this case of my discussions Between the water tank and the inside insulation, in that zone where water vapors would migrate and may condense under some extreme conditions, like John's

I am surprised, or most likely not that some customers in such a hot climate would think or expect cold water into the house. I wonder why they would think the city would also supply hot water to homes besides cold water. Curious. But cold is relative, I guess

In your case, power off, I would suppose you don't need the hot water and don't really empty the tank, so, the worst it would cool to is the space temperature, in time, depending on the rate of heat transfer through all that insulation; perhaps it would be turned on well before that.

But, we keep learning new stuff which is great as we are still alive to learn

 

[MDS]

My house has a 50 gallon hot water heater (gas) and I did an experiment one time to see how long the hot water would last. I was a prune and had to get out of the shower long before the hot water gave out.

Now granted I don't have a house full of kids (female or otherwise) but I just could not exhaust the hot water supply. I suppose that is a good thing...

 

[mtrycrafts]

My house has a 50 gallon hot water heater (gas) and I did an experiment one time to see how long the hot water would last. I was a prune and had to get out of the shower long before the hot water gave out.

Now granted I don't have a house full of kids (female or otherwise) but I just could not exhaust the hot water supply. I suppose that is a good thing...

Yes, it is for this discussions, not much chance of condensation
My sister had 4 kids, 3 girls in Canada. Don't remember hearing that the hot water ran out. But, I will ask if she remembers
No wonder there is a water shortage, John's girls are using it all up LOL
(just funnin with you john)

 

[stratman]

You know if we all get tankless water hearters that would be the end of the conversation!

 

[pzaur]

You know if we all get tankless water hearters that would be the end of the conversation!

Totally agree!
I wish my new house had an "On-Demand" water heater installed and not a 50-gallon tank. I bet I'd see some major savings in the gas bill department because the heater keeps firing up to heat the water when it has no chance of being used.

As for you all running out of water - my wife likes here showers on the edge of scolding. I've taken showers after her only to run out of water because she used it almost all the way up! Talk about a wake up call!

-pat

 

[Adam]

This thread got interesting. I wish that I would have kept up with it.

Without arguing if we should continuously strive to learn, or if a water heater should have insulation, I thought that I'd throw out two things that people may not know:

1) Water will pass through metal (called permeation, as opposed to leakage)

2) Insulation that is too thick can actually cause more heat to be transferred. This is because as the insulation thickness increases, so does the external surface area of the insulation. There is a point at which the increase in heat loss caused by the added surface area is greater than the reduction in heat loss caused by the insulation material.

 

[Highlander]

Thank you for that Adam.

Everybody, this is Adam.

(Everybody) Hiiiiii Aaadam.

 

[mtrycrafts]

1) Water will pass through metal (called permeation, as opposed to leakage)

2) Insulation that is too thick can actually cause more heat to be transferred. This is because as the insulation thickness increases, so does the external surface area of the insulation. There is a point at which the increase in heat loss caused by the added surface area is greater than the reduction in heat loss caused by the insulation material.

OK at what rate does it permeates through metal?

At what thickness and insulation U values will it be at that point where it radiates more heat that the insulation tries to reduce the loss? If you start with a 24" dia water heater that is already insulated

 

[mtrycrafts]

Totally agree!
I wish my new house had an "On-Demand" water heater installed and not a 50-gallon tank. I bet I'd see some major savings in the gas bill department because the heater keeps firing up to heat the water when it has no chance of being used.

As for you all running out of water - my wife likes here showers on the edge of scolding. I've taken showers after her only to run out of water because she used it almost all the way up! Talk about a wake up call!

-pat

50 gallons of hot water used up in a shower by 1 person?

What is your gas bill in the summer when the house is not heated? What portion is the laundry drying and cooking? Do you have a recirc system or just run the water until it gets hot at the tap? I bet your savings would be not as much as you think.

 

[Adam]

Thank you for that Adam.

Everybody, this is Adam.

(Everybody) Hiiiiii Aaadam.

That's right. School is now in session.

OK at what rate does it permeates through metal?

At what thickness and insulation U values will it be at that point where it radiates more heat that the insulation tries to reduce the loss? If you start with a 24" dia water heater that is already insulated

I wasn't specifically referring to the water heater issue. I was just throwing in some facts. You know, for those that like to continuously keep learning. I just happened to think of those two things because I was reading the water heater discussion.

 

[mtrycrafts]

My house has a 50 gallon hot water heater (gas) and I did an experiment one time to see how long the hot water would last. I was a prune and had to get out of the shower long before the hot water gave out.

Now granted I don't have a house full of kids (female or otherwise) but I just could not exhaust the hot water supply. I suppose that is a good thing...

Interesting that you didn't run out of hot water and others can drain it in one shower I cannot either; must be operator errors someplace

 

[mtrycrafts]

That's right. School is now in session.
I wasn't specifically referring to the water heater issue. I was just throwing in some facts. You know, for those that like to continuously keep learning. I just happened to think of those two things because I was reading the water heater discussion.

Well, yes, you did through in some interesting answers but this mind is still on and active, bedtime is a while off

Besides the area question, the incremental increase in R value is less and less as the rate of transfer is less. But, if you have an answer there are a few neurons that you would make happier

 

[Adam]

Besides the area question, the incremental increase in R value is less and less as the rate of transfer is less. But, if you have an answer there are a few neurons that you would make happier

I'll have to get back to you on this one. I have a pizza that's just about done cooking, and it's been a while since I've done any of those calculations. I still have my text book from 15 years ago...oh, man, I'm getting old.

My neurons haven't work in quite some time (as evidenced frequently by my posts, I'm sure), but I'll see if I can kick start a few of them to get you an answer.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'll have to get back to you on this one. I have a pizza that's just about done cooking, and it's been a while since I've done any of those calculations. I still have my text book from 15 years ago...oh, man, I'm getting old.

My neurons haven't work in quite some time (as evidenced frequently by my posts, I'm sure), but I'll see if I can kick start a few of them to get you an answer.

Not to worry, time is not critical, yet We all are getting old and I won't tell you when I turned in those books Your neurons are working fine.

 

[musicgioni]

To HI-FI E.

Hello friend. I am not a very frequent visitor in this but here go my comments regarding Blind Testing and the sound of equipment:

I personally believe that if blind testing can not reveal differences between two components then there are no differences...for the particular listener that is undergoing the test. However if one can not hear a difference it does NOT mean that someone else can not hear it also.

Regarding differences between, say, two similar amps (Wattage, current capabilities etc) I believe that if the two amps are of the same genre (transistor or tube) same transistor type (FET, MOSFET etc.), similar quality parts and similar topologies and are both competently designed they should and will sound very similar if not close to identical. However, even small differences in the parts used, topologies and parts layout will have an impract to the way the two will sound.

About 7 years ago I replaced my beloved Threshold S-500 amp (250 W per channel, high current capability, high damping factor etc) with a Plinius SA-250, also 250 WPC, even higher damping factor and current capability and the impact on the sound of my speakers was OWE inspiring! The base became tight as a drum the speakers seemed to go deeper, about 1/2 an octave as much as before. The whole sound got a "silky" character. After enjoying my Plinius for about 7 years I sold it and I bought a Musical Fidelity KW500 integrated amp. Again the sound of my speakers changed to the point that my totally NON audiophile new wife was amazed at the difference the new components made. The speakers sound more alive (the Plinius was a bit dark sounding), more musical and "faster: that with the previous amp. What I have trouble with, friend, is when I hear silly comments from Audio Critic or other people that keep repeating faulse statements like parrots about all equipment sound the same or that a new and more modern desgned amp will have no or miniscule impact on the sound of a system. YES the sepakers are by far the most important pieces in a stereo rig affecting the sound most dramatically than any other component but NOONE should ever underestimate the importance of a good amp, pre-amp and source components.

Despite my agreeing with them in many aspects regarding prices of stereo components, the value of cables and the sad state of affairs regarding the journalistic integrity of the leading publication (I subscribe to both) I have become way too tired with the myopic and idiotically stubborn way that a failed publication like the Audio Critic has been trying to preach some stupid and utter rubbish to some times uniformed music lovers. After having embraced their ideas for their pure :guts; in saying what they believed I finally came toi the sad realization that they are a bunch of sad people feeling superior to anyone else (they seem to laugh at anyone that does not accept their silly doctirne like if it were a new religion) and bored with their own lives (Mr. Acsel senior is 80+ years old by now...) still regecting to Listen with their own ears. Sad but true...

Anyway, again I will say it: If one is willing to LISTEN then he will hear differences and any DBT should be able to demonstrate this without a problem.

Long live MUSIC friends! Sorry for being so chatty but I AM veru enthousiastic about our hobby and I just love music! And YES I also listen to Barba from time to time! I have a collection of over 4,000 CDs and LPs and my musical tastes are as diverse as the world we live in...

Cheers

 

[MDS]

Musicgioni,
The problem is that everyone that shares your opinion says the exact same thing - as if you all are are reading from the same prepared script.

If the Threshold amp was so wonderful, why did you feel the need to replace it with the Plinius? Of course you would think the 'upgrade' was better, as a human you are pre-conditioned to think so.

Someone you might feel a great kinship with is Jason Serinus that does reviews for Secrets of HiFi. What you can conclude from his reviews is that everything sounds a bit different and that one should match an amp with a particular set of cables for each particular recording. How many people in the real world constantly swap amps and cables for each particular recording? None.

I say that music and its appreciation is a truly personal thing but those that are firmly in the camp that all amps and cables are different are different from the 'mainstream' in that they never ever will accept that their own personal biases play a role. For decades we have had double blind tests where the 'believers' pick the equipment, the musical selections, and define the protocol to use for testing...and still dismiss the results when they cannot show beyond statistical chance that they can conclusively identify a particular piece of equipment or cable. Isn't that the height of hypocrisy that such believers dismiss their own failures and claim that others have poor hearing or don't know what they are talking about?

This site is more science based and we value hard proof over anything else (despite accepting that personal differences do occur). I've been following this stuff for decades and have a firm grasp of the technical underpinnings of it all...and yet I am still waiting for proof that your multi-thousand dolllar amp or $100 per foot interconnects make any difference.

 

[Highlander]

Isn't that the height of hypocrisy that such believers dismiss their own failures and claim that others have poor hearing or don't know what they are talking about?

Bested only by arrogance.