big room with $12K-$15K budget

[mathman]

Hi...i would appreciate you suggestions for AVR, CD/DVD player, 7.1 speaker setup, (anything else you think i need?) for a room that measures 9.5ft tall, seating area is 12-15ft back from TV, sidewalls are 10-12 feet from center listing position, rear speakers will have to be ceiling mounted.

thank you!

 

[AVRat]

Have you been able to find & listen to anything more since your last postings? We can provide recommendations but, unless you can find & audition them, it won’t help much.

 

[longodj]

Hmm....If it were me....

Fronts: Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus ($4795)
Center: Sonus Faber Center Domus ($1295)
Rears/Surrounds: Sonus Faber Wall Domus (2x$1495)
Sub: REL Brittania B2 ($2,495.00)

AVR: Denon AVR-3806 ($1299.99)
CD/DVD: Toshiba HD-A20 ($329.99)

That leaves you about $2K for acoustical treatment

 

[Gimpy Ric]

Before you spend a penny, READ THIS ARTICLE! It will puit you in the ball park of HOW to slice up your budget for different pieces.

http://www.audioholics.com/buying-guides/system-buying-guides/the-12k-home-theater-system

 

[mtrycrafts]

Hi...i would appreciate you suggestions for AVR, CD/DVD player, 7.1 speaker setup, (anything else you think i need?) for a room that measures 9.5ft tall, seating area is 12-15ft back from TV, sidewalls are 10-12 feet from center listing position, rear speakers will have to be ceiling mounted.

thank you!

Do lots of planning before you jump on anything.
That is a pretty large room. Is this for TV watching primarily, mostly, or some?
What size is it?
Have you thought of a front projection system?
Why ceiling mount in the back? That will be or can be an issue.

 

[mathman]

great feedback and the article suggestion was very useful. honestly we'll use the system for 70% music/30% HT.

I think we going to use the following for speakers unless i hear someone tell me I'm nuts.

Vandersteens:
2Ce signatures (fronts)
VCC-1 (center)
VSM-1 (two back and two sides)
2Wq or V2W subwoofer (we'll use two unless someone tells me one is OK)

Any concerns given that the backs must be ceiling mounted?

the amp is the next big question. I like denon with the features (4806CI) and power but he bandersteen dealer is pushing the Arcam 350. The 2Ces sounded great when used with the arcam but i don't have the ability to test with the denon. Another post i had said the Arcam blows away the denon so i guess the question becomes one of features (?) or is the circutry of the denon just as good as the inner workings fo the arcam?

finally, do i really need a custom installer? I'm not close to a HT pro, but i'm not stupid either...am i being penny wise and dollar foolish?

 

[DrunkenWolf]

I had installers put my surround and rear speakers in. COMPLETE WASTE OF MONEY. They didn't position the rear speakers properly and they did a piss poor job of running the wiring. I could-and should-have done it myself. That said, I went through magnolia hi-fi, a boutique shop with a local reputation to maintain would probably do a better job, but it's not really a hard job to do.

BTW, rather than getting an AVR, I'd get a pre/pro and a separate amplifier. Not for the sound quality, but because I figure a good amp would last forever and enable you to upgrade the pre/pro inexpensively when the new type of AV interconnect or digital audio encoding method comes to market-I've seen it go from RCA to SVIDEO to Component to HDMI on the cables and there have been countless audio encoding methods like DTS/WMA Pro/and Dolby digital. Personally I got an inexpensive AVR with pre-outs, and I'll add an amp if I get the money to do so-but when I must have a new AVR for one of the above reasons, I'll get separate amplification at that time.

 

[mtrycrafts]

great feedback and the article suggestion was very useful. honestly we'll use the system for 70% music/30% HT.

I think we going to use the following for speakers unless i hear someone tell me I'm nuts.

Vandersteens:
2Ce signatures (fronts)
VCC-1 (center)
VSM-1 (two back and two sides)
2Wq or V2W subwoofer (we'll use two unless someone tells me one is OK)

Any concerns given that the backs must be ceiling mounted?

the amp is the next big question. I like denon with the features (4806CI) and power but he bandersteen dealer is pushing the Arcam 350. The 2Ces sounded great when used with the arcam but i don't have the ability to test with the denon. Another post i had said the Arcam blows away the denon so i guess the question becomes one of features (?) or is the circutry of the denon just as good as the inner workings fo the arcam?

finally, do i really need a custom installer? I'm not close to a HT pro, but i'm not stupid either...am i being penny wise and dollar foolish?

Since you will be into HT, such a large room and distance, I would suggest you consider front projection system, unless it will be for TV use as well as that eats up lamp hours. Lamps can be expensive.

Amps depend on the speaker loads, sensitivity, and your listening habits: very loud, loud, moderate, etc.

Ht is heading into hi def, no matter what. Hi def reproduction to its max has needs, like HDMI. Your Denon receiver just don't offer this yet. New ones are coming and may have just arrived, like some of the Onkyo new series that supports HDMI with the new audio lossless encryptions. So, that is a consideration. No real need for the Arcam types, unless it is very competitive to the likes of the Onkyo. The sound depends on the room, its acoustics to a great deal versus the amp.

Installation would depend on your capability.

 

[AVRat]

While the new Denon AVR-4808 would perform very well with the Vandersteens, you may want to consider the new Integra DTC-9.8 pre/pro & a good, 200W, 7-channel amp for about the same price.
http://www.integrahometheater.com/model.cfm?m=DTC-9.8&class=Separates&p=i

 

[mtrycrafts]

Vandersteens:
2Ce signatures (fronts)
?

I just checked the specs
84dB spl sensitivity
Most likely 4 -5 Ohm nominal

Best to get a pretty large amp, 200+ watts, that is stable into 4 ohms.

 

[AVRat]

mtry, not sure where you read them but I found:

IMPEDANCE:
7 ohms nominal 4 ohms minimum.
SENSITIVITY:
86dB with 2.83 volts of pink noise input at 1 meter on axis.
RECOMMENDED AMPLIFICATION:
40 to 160 watts per channel into 8 ohms.

 

[mathman]

thanks for this. but can i ask for clarification on the specs issue? what are the specs so ? are they good or bad or just unusually high/low?

 

[mtrycrafts]

mtry, not sure where you read them but I found:

IMPEDANCE:
7 ohms nominal 4 ohms minimum.
SENSITIVITY:
86dB with 2.83 volts of pink noise input at 1 meter on axis.
RECOMMENDED AMPLIFICATION:
40 to 160 watts per channel into 8 ohms.

I checked here:
http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/284/index7.html

Unless these are not the same ones he has. These dip to 3 ohms and a good section is at 4 ohms. It is below 6 ohms from 1.5kHz on up.The text talks of the sensitivity, 82 and 84 dB spl. It is pretty low. And depending on that impedance and that 2.83 V if that is 1 watts or 2 watts to get that sensitivity, or somewhere in-between. That is working against you too.

 

[dem beats]

Just my .02

Vandersteens are sweet, but to me, they are more for acoustic music and just... I dunno not for HT. They miss something. I loved how they sound I really did for most music but they just didn't work for me in the HT capacity. I don't know which ones I heard to be honest....

I like more conventional speakers for HT. You are alot more music howver, so it may work great for you. If the room is dedicated however I would even go with a pro audio instal JBL or Genelec.. something like that would be mind blowing. I am partial to B & W 800's for the traditional in the house set up. I wasn't a fan of Digms... and I don't have a good reason. They just didn't pick up on what i wanted.... that was the sig line up.

I would also go front projector if it's dedicated. I am constantly amazed at the quality and fun a projector can give a movie experience. You just have to realize it's only going to work for dedicated rooms in most cases as they don't tolerate as much light usualy.

If I went totaly dedicated and could start from scratch i would go prepro. A stack of good amps from QSC or crown or berhinger. Some pro speakers, if I liked the sound that is... (maybe some top end B & W, or veritas from energy, or even DIY if I had the cash and time) I haven't heard much in that realm for fear of cost and falling in love lol. Then the 1080p projector from epson.... not that I think it's all that and a bag... I don't even drool over 1080, but I love my epson now and I supose at that price point it's good to have the best.

Then I would have a massive integrated sub system with multiple driver units around the room. Probably 4 dual 18" Bass moduals integrated into the room.

:yanks self out of fantasy land:

yeah anyway... thats what I would do.

 

[AVRat]

The lower the sensitivity of a speaker, the more power it takes for a desired volume level. An 85dB to 91dB change in speaker sensitivity requires a quadrupling of power (every 3db of change = doubling of power).

The lower the impedance response of a speaker, the more strain is put on the power unit.

Upper level receivers and most amps don’t usually have problems with these issues.

 

[mathman]

OK, we're getting closer

we're going with the vanersteens for fronts (2Ce MKII), center (VCC-1), backs (VSM) and sub (V2W).
the dealer is quoteing MSRP (does anyone pay MSRP?) and I'm willing to pay cash so what size discount should i ask for??


Denon 4308CI AVR with the 3930CI CD/DVD player.

maybe a change of heart on the projector??????? we saw the JVC IDLA-RS1 projector and was amazed at the color and quality of picture. seemed to be as good as some rear projection/LCD TVs. of course with the screen we're looking at MSRP of nearly $8K which is 2X what we were thinking of paying for a quality 65-71in rear projection.

any issues with the JVC projector (Price is $6300) and is there anything better for the same $ or less?

Finally, any fatal flaws/obviously stupid issues we missed with the system (vanders, denons and JVC)?

 

[avaserfi]

If the JVC is a little expensive for you check out this Epson. My dad just picked one up and loves it. Also, you should almost NEVER pay MSRP you can talk the dealer down he is trying to take you for a ride.

 

[rcohen]

For a room that size, don't underestimate the value of a big projection screen (110-130"), big amp(s) (check out Parasound), and good sub(s) (with some kind of bass correction, like Velodyne DD).

 

[rcohen]

BTW, I'd even consider this stuff more important than the perfect speakers (and I love nice speakers).

Also, if you go front projection, blackout blinds and painting the room a dark color will make a world of difference.

 

[mtrycrafts]

thanks for this. but can i ask for clarification on the specs issue? what are the specs so ? are they good or bad or just unusually high/low?

Sorry I didn't see this before.
The specification indicates the sensitivity of 84dB spl with 1 watts of power. Other speakers may be 90 db spl with 1 watts. So yours would need 4 watts of power for the same 90 dB spl. And, to reach 100 dB spl short bursts your speaker will need 40 watts while the other speaker needs 10 watts and so forth. This matters when the spl drops in room between the speaker and seating position. At 12ft distance, you can count on an 8 dB spl drop, so your speaker may put out 100 dB by the time it gets to your seat, it will be 92 dB spl.

Then the impedance. Lower impedance means more current demand from an amp and it must be so designed and capable.