SVS PB12-NSD coupled with Hsu MBM-12????

Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Not sure what happened to my post BUT I will give you a quick respone as it is getting late. Not sure if room relections is my main problem because I used to own a Mirage S12 and it did quite well musically speaking. In fact, I have my PB12-NSD in the same exact location as I did the Mirage S12. And, I can say w/o a doubt that the Mirage S12 had more output above 35 Hz and was much more articulate and punchy sounding when listening to music. The Mirage S12 was also very good with ht BUT the PB12-NSD is better down low. I also used to own (2) Acoustic Research 8" subs that were very musical and not bad with ht applications. Therefore, I do not believe the PB12-NSD has less ouput in the 60-80 range Hz because of room reflections BUT due to having an 18 Hz tune which results in less output in the 30-80 Hz range. I am by no means an expert but this is how it has been explained to me by some of the experts I have talked to as well as read for myself. Have any other ideas of what it could be??? Thanks for your help.
It's how the room is affecting the subs output. The Mirage probably wasn't flat, not SVS flat, so it wouldn't suffer as much. I say an SMS-1 is a much better solution as it can equalize 3 subs using 1 microphone. Just buy another SVS down the road for a perfect bass experience.

SheepStar
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
There is a lengthy thread over at the AVS forum on nearly your exact question. (The SVS in question was an Ultra.) You should wander over there and take a look S-man39.
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
It's how the room is affecting the subs output. The Mirage probably wasn't flat, not SVS flat, so it wouldn't suffer as much. I say an SMS-1 is a much better solution as it can equalize 3 subs using 1 microphone. Just buy another SVS down the road for a perfect bass experience.

SheepStar
That is probably true Sheep. Sure has me thinking now as the PB12-NSD is almost ruler flat. I will read up on the SMS some more. Thanks for your help. Have a great day. :):)
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
There is a lengthy thread over at the AVS forum on nearly your exact question. (The SVS in question was an Ultra.) You should wander over there and take a look S-man39.
Hmmm........interesting. I will be sure to do that TOMORROW...............just kidding!!!!!! :p:p I mean I will look into it as I post over there as well. Thanks for the heads-up. Have a great weekend.
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
Just wanted to let you all know that I recalibrated today and things are really beginning to sound much better. For one thing, I had the phase set at 0 degrees and now have it set to 90. This has made a significant difference in which the bass feels and sounds more even. I also calibrated everything to 80db with my Rat Shack meter. Furthermore, I also have the PB12-NSD still set between my mains. It kinda looks like my room was creating some cancellations in the lower and midbass regions. The PB12 sounds much more musical and articulate while still producing good impact. I think, with more critical listening and plotting my response, I will be able to get even better performance. Perhaps, even getting a Behringer Feedback Destroyer. Thanks for all the help people as I really appreciate it very much. ave a great weekend. :):)
 
P

Peter Marcks

Banned
Hi speakerman,

No doubt, the MBM-12 would take your system performance to another level. The ideal place to keep it would be in the nearfield (sideways directly behind the couch, or next to the couch).

The MBM has about 10db higher headroom in the mid/upper bass compared to VTF-3 Mk3 Turbo. Even though the VTF-3 Mk3 has strong relatively mid-bass output compared to other true subwoofers in it's price range, the MBM-12 is almost 4x stronger in that comparison!

The lower a ported subwoofer is tuned, the more that maximum output capability and dynamic range becomes compromised over the common bass range (all else equal). The MBM allows one to run in a low port tuning without compromising maximum output capability and dynamic range.

Another benefit is that you would be able to position your subwoofer and module for best deep bass and mid-bass response. Deep bass tends to be best reproduced in the farfield (front corner), while mid-bass tends to be best reproduced in the nearfield.

So far, at AVS, I can recall one person using an MBM-12 with an Ultra sub, and another person using an MBM-12 with DUAL Plus/2, both using MBM with great results. I really hope you get a chance to try it out someday.

Sincerely,
 
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speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
I now dub thee speakerman40!

happy birthday!
Thanks Mike BUT now there will be no more 30's..........:eek::eek:!!!! I must admit I have been trying to hang on to the 30's as long as I can..........LOL!!!! No really, I appreciate you noticing. Have a great weekend.
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
Hi speakerman,

No doubt, the MBM-12 would take your system performance to another level. The ideal place to keep it would be in the nearfield (sideways directly behind the couch, or next to the couch).

The MBM has about 10db higher headroom in the mid/upper bass compared to VTF-3 Mk3 Turbo. Even though the VTF-3 Mk3 has strong relatively mid-bass output compared to other true subwoofers in it's price range, the MBM-12 is almost 4x stronger in that comparison!

The lower a ported subwoofer is tuned, the more that maximum output capability and dynamic range becomes compromised over the common bass range (all else equal). The MBM allows one to run in a low port tuning without compromising maximum output capability and dynamic range.

Another benefit is that you would be able to position your subwoofer and module for best deep bass and mid-bass response. Deep bass tends to be best reproduced in the farfield (front corner), while mid-bass tends to be best reproduced in the nearfield.

So far, at AVS, I can recall one person using an MBM-12 with an Ultra sub, and another person using an MBM-12 with DUAL Plus/2, both using MBM with great results. I really hope you get a chance to try it out someday.

Sincerely,
Thanks Peter for your reply. I am seriously thinking about getting a MBM-12 midbass module BUT like most, funds are rather limited right now. I do have things sounding much better now and I may try a BFD to see what results I can obtain from it. It is good to know there are some options out there. Thanks for your very informative reply. Have a great weekend Peter. :):)
 
P

Peter Marcks

Banned
That's the great thing about the modular approach with MBM...one can always add it at any time down the road to improve their system performance! Definitely, don't bother right now if budget is tight. You can always save up for the future.

Take care speakerman, and have a great weekend too!
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Another benefit is that you would be able to position your subwoofer and module for best deep bass and mid-bass response. Deep bass tends to be best reproduced in the farfield (front corner), while mid-bass tends to be best reproduced in the nearfield.
Disagreement alert!

When my Velodyne was in my front right corner, it couldn't get much output below 30Hz. With it in my rear left corner, almost beside my rear couch, I can hear into the mid 20s.

I also think this statement is broad generalization because not all rooms are alike, and proper bass can come from many different locations. A flat subwoofer with proper placement coupled with proper room acoustics will not need an MBM-12.

SheepStar
 
speakerman39

speakerman39

Audioholic Overlord
That's the great thing about the modular approach with MBM...one can always add it at any time down the road to improve their system performance! Definitely, don't bother right now if budget is tight. You can always save up for the future.

Take care speakerman, and have a great weekend too!
Sounds like a plan to me Peter. Who knows what the future holds........LOL!!!! Thanks for the help my friend.
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Disagreement alert!

When my Velodyne was in my front right corner, it couldn't get much output below 30Hz. With it in my rear left corner, almost beside my rear couch, I can hear into the mid 20s.

I also think this statement is broad generalization because not all rooms are alike, and proper bass can come from many different locations. A flat subwoofer with proper placement coupled with proper room acoustics will not need an MBM-12.

SheepStar
I agree with you Sheep, about the different responses each room may elicit. That is common sense.

However, there is a bass quality issue beyond your stated "flat" response. One can get a $100 JBL sub to play a flat FR across its range. JBL 'quality' bass isn't going to sound at all like an SVS Ultra playing flat across its range. That's the key to the MBM...it's fast transient response and super high output from 50+ Hz with its specific function designed driver.

From what you say, any old sub will do if it meets your proper placement and room treatment requirements. Negatory.
 
Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
I agree with you Sheep, about the different responses each room may elicit. That is common sense.

However, there is a bass quality issue beyond your stated "flat" response. One can get a $100 JBL sub to play a flat FR across its range. JBL 'quality' bass isn't going to sound at all like an SVS Ultra playing flat across its range. That's the key to the MBM...it's fast transient response and super high output from 50+ Hz with its specific function designed driver.

From what you say, any old sub will do if it meets your proper placement and room treatment requirements. Negatory.
So far, transient response hasn't even been measured. There is group delay, but that has also not been proven to not have an audible affect.

What good is super high output, if it's not supposed to play any louder then the subwoofer itself? Subwoofers usually struggle with producing SPL LOW, not in the 50+ range.

No where did I say that any old subwoofer will suffice. What I think is the problem, is you don't understand how little is required to make a proper subwoofer. With some EQ work to restore a flat subwoofers native performance, there isn't much else required for great bass.

SheepStar
 
P

Peter Marcks

Banned
Disagreement alert!

When my Velodyne was in my front right corner, it couldn't get much output below 30Hz. With it in my rear left corner, almost beside my rear couch, I can hear into the mid 20s.
Well naturally if one has an in-room suck-out at 30Hz when the subwoofer is placed in the front corner, then that would not be the best place to put the subwoofer. If I could see your room layout, I could tell you right away what would be good placement options for the true subwoofer.

Nearfield placement of a true subwoofer, especially nearfield placement in a corner, often works great. We've been recommending this for years now for the benefits that it can provide in many systems, and tons of people have been really happy placing the subwoofer in the nearfield. However, this tends to work best in rooms that are relatively deep. In rooms that are not very deep (which represents many if not most typical family rooms), there can be some cancellation as one pressure wave moves forward and reflects backwards as a second pressure wave moves forward. This leads to a dip in the frequency response. Using a nearfield mid-bass/farfield low-bass system eliminates this problem.


I also think this statement is broad generalization because not all rooms are alike, and proper bass can come from many different locations. A flat subwoofer with proper placement coupled with proper room acoustics will not need an MBM-12.
There is no such thing as "proper" room acoustics when speaking about typical family and living rooms. Room acoustics can wreck havok on bass quality. One of the nice things about nearfield placement is that room reflections are reduced, which tends to provide a flatter frequency response over this range. In fact, if you look at many of the frequency response charts floating out there on the internet forums, many people tend to have very rough frequency response in the mid/upper bass range when using their deep bass subwoofer to handle low/mid/upper bass, even though the deep bass subwoofer has a flat or fairly flat anechoic response.

Note that having a flat anechoic response in a true subwoofer doesn't do anything to take away the primary benefits of MBM. The VTF-3 HO Turbo has an amazingly flat response, and yet the addition of an MBM-12 takes system performance to a much higher level. MBM-12 is able to maintain a flat response at much higher SPL levels in the mid-bass, at least 10db higher. Deep bass performance is improved as well when using the MBM, since the true deep bass subwoofer is relieved of mid-bass duties. Intermodulation distortion is vastly reduced since the mid-bass frequencies are no longer modulated by the deep bass frequencies. The end result is much higher headroom, wider dynamic range, and lower distortion that no amount of bass traps can provide or emulate.
 
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Sheep

Sheep

Audioholic Warlord
Note that having a flat anechoic response in a true subwoofer doesn't do anything to take away the primary benefits of MBM. The VTF-3 HO Turbo has an amazingly flat response, and yet the addition of an MBM-12 takes system performance to a much higher level. MBM-12 is able to maintain a flat response at much higher SPL levels in the mid-bass, at least 10db higher. Deep bass performance is improved as well when using the MBM, since the true deep bass subwoofer is relieved of mid-bass duties. Intermodulation distortion is vastly reduced since the mid-bass frequencies are no longer modulated by the deep bass frequencies. The end result is much higher headroom, wider dynamic range, and lower distortion that no amount of bass traps can provide or emulate.
What is claimed here will only pertain to a subwoofer that is audibly distorting and suffering under the operating range. Most of today's good subwoofers don't suffer or produce audible amounts of distortion, so this big difference will only pertain to inferior subwoofers.

An EQ with room treatment will always prevail IMO.

SheepStar
 
P

Peter Marcks

Banned
What can I say Sheep, that's just not correct, but you are free to believe whatever you want to believe. It's no fluke that people with dual HO Turbos or dual Plus/2's are blown away after using a single MBM-12 in their system. Higher headroom, wider dynamic range, lower distortion, flatter response, improved mid-bass and deep bass performance. All of these advantages in both treated and untreated rooms. There is just no arguing with the amazingly positive results from consumers who have tried it out on their own.
 

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