Bi Wiring

[Seth=L]

It is a matter of ego. Some people simply can't get past it. If people spend $15,000 for an amplifier or $1,000 for a cable because they like it, want it and can afford it then that's fine. The problems arise when they try to justify it. It isn't justifiable. Audiophiles just need to learn that buying a military wired 100 lb. class A amplifier is just plain cool. Whether it improves the sound in the system is another matter and not important in the overall scheme of things. The emphasis in audiophilia has always been on justification (fidelity) when it should be on enjoyment. It is often about what others think rather than what the individual thinks. It is a hobby, after all. No problem there.

I'm an amateur pianist and I can really appreciate what someone like Oscar Peterson could do with a piano keyboard. I listen in amazement every time I play one of his recordings. I don't care if I listen on an MP3 player with ear buds or a car radio. His skill and technique are awesome at any level of fidelity. Listening to the music, I think, trumps listening to the equipment in the long run. More important than listening tests - whether blind or subjective.

I wouldn't dispute that a huge Class A amplifier would have distinct advantages in performance. An amp that can take any load you throw at it, near no resistance (e.g. a kitchen fork, they can sing until they melt on a Class A amplifier). So if you have some good Klipsch corner speakers paired with an all-resistance amplifier you can play at insane levels with minimal distortion.

If you cables are insufficient, like to low of gauge, there could be an audible difference, or the cable could melt if too much is being asked of it. Point being, cables don't have sonic signatures, and if they do they are causing distortion.

 

[no. 5]

It is a matter of ego. Some people simply can't get past it. If people spend $15,000 for an amplifier or $1,000 for a cable because they like it, want it and can afford it then that's fine. The problems arise when they try to justify it. It isn't justifiable. Audiophiles just need to learn that buying a military wired 100 lb. class A amplifier is just plain cool. Whether it improves the sound in the system is another matter and not important in the overall scheme of things. The emphasis in audiophilia has always been on justification (fidelity) when it should be on enjoyment. It is often about what others think rather than what the individual thinks. It is a hobby, after all. No problem there.

I'm an amateur pianist and I can really appreciate what someone like Oscar Peterson could do with a piano keyboard. I listen in amazement every time I play one of his recordings. I don't care if I listen on an MP3 player with ear buds or a car radio. His skill and technique are awesome at any level of fidelity. Listening to the music, I think, trumps listening to the equipment in the long run. More important than listening tests - whether blind or subjective.

I completely agree with that.

Perhaps 'audiophiles' are of a mindset that "I'm intellectual*, I have no need for appearance, I only buy things that improve the sonic quality of music, as I have Superior hearing and mental capacity allowing me to discern minute sonic improvements"

Do boy racers pant their Civics lime green because it makes the car go faster? No, it's because it looks cool, when 'audiophiles' start admitting that they buy 100lb class A amplifiers because having a big awesome looking hunk of mettle in their living room is cool, and garden hose thick cables that are so reactive that they act as tone controls because they like the sound, I will find audiophillia much more palatable.







*by which I mean; logical, educated, emotionally removed, of perfect reasoning and reasonableness, of a socially elite class (though not necessarily of a top financial or social status), contrasted with someone who is a non-intellectual; illogical (believing a test rather then their own ears ), emotional motivated (buying a DVD player because of its pretty blue lights), uneducated ("have you even researched the sonic improvements a high quality power cord can bring?!"), and of a socially common class.

 

[Seth=L]

*by which I mean; logical, educated, emotionally removed, of perfect reasoning and reasonableness, of a socially elite class (though not necessarily of a top financial or social status), contrasted with someone who is a non-intellectual; illogical (believing a test rather then their own ears ), emotional motivated (buying a DVD player because of its pretty blue lights), uneducated ("have you even researched the sonic improvements a high quality power cord can bring?!"), and of a socially common class.

I have pants.

 

[no. 5]

I have pants.

I... would... hope... so?

Not quite following you there Seth

 

[Seth=L]

I... would... hope... so?

Not quite following you there Seth

My responce was intended to confuse. While your post wasn't intentionally confusing, my brain kind of warped reading it.

 

[Davemcc]

My responce was intended to confuse. While your post wasn't intentionally confusing, my brain kind of warped reading it.

I caught it. I just got finished panting my living room, now I have to reassemble my entire system tomorrow. No, really, I've got pics. I just panted.

 

[Seth=L]

I caught it. I just got finished panting my living room, now I have to reassemble my entire system tomorrow. No, really, I've got pics. I just panted.

Cable pants?

 

[AdrianMills]

It is a matter of ego. Some people simply can't get past it.

For some, yes I think ego is it but others have serious issues accepting that they don't have total control of all their senses. The fact that their hearing can potentially lie to them is a psychological leap that they are incapable of taking.

 

[Davemcc]

For some, yes I think ego is it but others have serious issues accepting that they don't have total control of all their senses. The fact that their hearing can potentially lie to them is a psychological leap that they are incapable of taking.

Fortunately, I have annual hearing tests at work, so I know exactly what I can't hear. Well, if it was there to hear, but I wouldn't know because I can't hear it if it was there to hear. But as long as it's there to hear, I know I can't hear it.

 

[fmw]

Fortunately, I have annual hearing tests at work, so I know exactly what I can't hear. Well, if it was there to hear, but I wouldn't know because I can't hear it if it was there to hear. But as long as it's there to hear, I know I can't hear it.

What? No golden ears? Mine aren't golden either. What a pity.

 

[russ_l]

The pudding is in the proof, isn't it. After all, you claimed audiophile status and most of them cannot demonstrate their claims of audibility through proper bias controlled listening. Can you?

Perhaps if you would have posted some real evidence for audibility you would not have had to use authority to try to convince.

MTRY- I did infer some evidence by mentioning that that I TRI-wired my Hyperion 938 speakers driven by Hyperion's best monoblocks and Hyperion preamp. Each additional stage of wiring, single, to bi, to tri was audible in that system. Key words being IN THAT SYSTEM (like I said earlier, CAN make a difference).

I'm also an audiophile club member here in NY, and occasionally sit-in in at other local club meetings. I've listened to dozens of terrific systems, not all expensive, at least half of which were bi-wired. The owners of those systems arrived at bi-wiring by experimentation which indicated, in their systems, that bi-wiring made an audible improvement. These are members with good ears, most of whom do not have $40K systems (although some do).

Also, but not to get involved in the other flame that this thread evolved into..... We had a monthly meeting several months ago where the proud host was anxious to show off his new Theil speakers. Problem was, the system sounded grainy; it had not previously. Our club president went out to his car and came back in with an Anaconda power cord. We swapped the CDP’s standard power cord for the Anaconda, and lo and behold, instantly no more grain!!! A week later, the host was out 700 bucks, but loving it.

Cables, of all types, CAN make a difference. If you have a highly resolving system you may hear audible improvements. Once again, you do not have to have an expensive system to hear differences. However, replacing a $49 DVD player with an $8000 Wadia CDP in a system comprised of Circuit City components most likely will not make an audible difference.

Anyone disagree with the statement that the "Wadia is infinitely better then the Chinese DVD player even though no differences were heard"? No more questions your honor.

 

[avaserfi]

A power cord making the system grainy is ludicrous. I would suggest reading up on electricity and how copper is copper and how silver is NOT important as relates to a conductor in the audio world. All these wonderful improvements you are your AV club experience are simply placebo effect for everything talked about in this thread. Maybe Gene will chime in I think he might know a little about cables and how much snake oil is involved with them.

Russ_l you should really do some of this reading I suggested I am sure you won't believe it because your ears are probably full of this snake oil, but it might open your eyes a little as there are journal articles out there with real blinded testing that trumps your "ohh, it sounds better."

 

[fmw]

I understand, Russ. I was also a member of an audiophile club. I had a system that cost quite a bit more than $40K. I was a Stereophile and TAS subscriber. I was on the mailing list of a couple of dozen high end audio dealers. I wrote published reviews of various brands and models of vacuum tubes. I would still be involved in the whole thing if I hadn't finally learned the difference between audible and "what should be audible" or "what others say is audible" or "what I want to be audible."

Trust me, been there, done that. Show me results from a properly administered blind listening test of power cords that proves their audibility and I'll start buying the stuff again. No kidding. But you can't do it. I couldn't do it either and I tried very hard. Nobody can do it because power cords don't create or reduce "grain," whatever that is. The placebo effect is incredibly powerful and every human being is subject to it - even the "golden eared" audio reviewers. I'm not trying to convert you. I think high end audio is a great hobby - one I pursued for a very long time. I'm just trying to further explain my position.

 

[BMXTRIX]

...there are journal articles out there with real blinded testing that trumps your "ohh, it sounds better."

This is the bottom line: There simply has not been any real world results that substantiate bi-wiring claims. By far, the majority of people who bi-wire don't pretend to hear things which aren't there, but do it to try it out.

There are times, for my clients where I may bi-wire a setup, but the initial wiring is done in the walls to allow for future bi-amping capabilities. Since the wire is already there, we put it to use. But, the customer is told from the start that there is not going to be any audible difference between single wiring and bi-wiring.

We will always have the occassional opinion that there is an audible difference... there also is some science that backs up very minor electrical differences when bi-wiring is done, but there is simply not audible testing that shows actual audible differences for humans.

 

[fmw]

Incidentally, Russ, while I was typing my response I was listening to a ripped CD on my computer system. My 400GB hard drive will hold a whole bunch of them. It has a little computer speaker system attached to it from Altec Lansing with a little subwoofer. I think the speaker system cost over $100. The sound isn't bad at all. I've even watched Netflix movies on it when a real home theater system is only two rooms away. Try it some time. Listen to the music instead of the equipment. The more you do it, the less the equipment will matter. You will enjoy listening to music more than listening to or for "grain" or other audio anomalies. Take care.

 

[Seth=L]

Incidentally, Russ, while I was typing my response I was listening to a ripped CD on my computer system. My 400GB hard drive will hold a whole bunch of them. It has a little computer speaker system attached to it from Altec Lansing with a little subwoofer. The sound isn't bad at all. I've even watched Netflix movies on it when a real home theater system is only two rooms away. Try it some time. Listen to the music instead of the equipment. The more you do it, the less the equipment will matter. You will enjoy listening to music more than listening to or for "grain" or other audio anomalies. Take care.

I now have my computer connected to my primary system, I get the best of both worlds.

 

[no. 5]

My responce was intended to confuse. While your post wasn't intentionally confusing, my brain kind of warped reading it.

Hats of to you sir, for you had succeeded!

 

[fmw]

I now have my computer connected to my primary system, I get the best of both worlds.

What is the benefit? I have a network cable downstairs that I could feed up through the floor to connect a workstation there to my network. I have a spare Linux computer up in the studio that I could reload with Windows XP and stick it on the equipment rack. I'm not sure I understand what I would gain by it. If I want to play a CD, I don't need a ripped one from the hard drive. I can play the original on the CD player. Internet fed movies are very low res. Blowing them up to flat panel TV size would only make them worse.

 

[mtrycrafts]

MTRY- I did infer some evidence by mentioning that that I TRI-wired my Hyperion 938 speakers driven by Hyperion's best monoblocks and Hyperion preamp. Each additional stage of wiring, single, to bi, to tri was audible in that system. Key words being IN THAT SYSTEM (like I said earlier, CAN make a difference).

I'm also an audiophile club member here in NY, and occasionally sit-in in at other local club meetings. I've listened to dozens of terrific systems, not all expensive, at least half of which were bi-wired. The owners of those systems arrived at bi-wiring by experimentation which indicated, in their systems, that bi-wiring made an audible improvement. These are members with good ears, most of whom do not have $40K systems (although some do).

Also, but not to get involved in the other flame that this thread evolved into..... We had a monthly meeting several months ago where the proud host was anxious to show off his new Theil speakers. Problem was, the system sounded grainy; it had not previously. Our club president went out to his car and came back in with an Anaconda power cord. We swapped the CDP’s standard power cord for the Anaconda, and lo and behold, instantly no more grain!!! A week later, the host was out 700 bucks, but loving it.

Cables, of all types, CAN make a difference. If you have a highly resolving system you may hear audible improvements. Once again, you do not have to have an expensive system to hear differences. However, replacing a $49 DVD player with an $8000 Wadia CDP in a system comprised of Circuit City components most likely will not make an audible difference.

Anyone disagree with the statement that the "Wadia is infinitely better then the Chinese DVD player even though no differences were heard"? No more questions your honor.

Thanks for the info. I am not a psychic but had a hunch that this is what your claims boiled down to unreliable anecdotes and no real, credible evidence.

Don't feel bad, you have joined other distinguished scientists who have left their baloney detection bag at the office and have fallen for voodoo, shake oil claims, etc. After all, those sheep skins don't automatically give you immunity from the Barnum Effect. One would think though that somewhere along in higher academia and in the science fields especially one would be exposed to the vagaries of this effect. But, there is continuing education, one would hope.

You should try and sit down for a real test of audio components. After all, it is the sound you are listening for and you don't need to see the answer that your subconscious is looking for. You know, DBT comparisons. Have you heard about it?

Since you are on the East coast, you should try to discover the Boston Audio Society, and perhaps they can help you discover reality instead of settling in for fantasyland. But, that is a choice.

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/wishful_thinking.htm

http://www.bostonaudiosociety.org/bas_speaker/abx_testing.htm

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-blind-test-power-cords-12-2004.html

http://agnews.tamu.edu/dailynews/stories/BICH/Sep2203a.htm

http://www.provide.net/~djcarlst/abx_new.htm

http://www.matrixhifi.com/pruebasciegas.htm Use the Google translator on this Spanish link.

 

[Ampdog]

Perhaps two main things:

To understand the psychology of blind tests, some study of the subject is mandatory. A valid blind test is not necessarily as complex as some universities (notably Scandenavian) did them, but it needs to be understood what factors will compromise it.

Perhaps a barely relevant example, but simply to illustrate: The CSIR where I worked did a study to ascertain whether the stereo recording of what was said in a meeting would enhance the secretary's ability to understand some barely audible comments. A list of specially chosen words was compiled and randomly recorded by someone with a normally good diction. This was replayed in mono and stereo through headphones to about 20 test subjects (including myself), with the result about 65% in favour of stereo .... until an objection came and the same experiment was re-done several weeks later. This time the result was about 65% in favour of mono! It transpired that improved intelligibility simply came with the sample read last, whether stereo or mono. One unconsciously remembered some words and upon hearing them a second time soon afterwards, then interpreted them correctly.

It is not generally known that eminent designer Douglas Self also has an MA (Psychology) degree. He once wrote interesting comments on this matter; unfortunately I did not keep copies.

Russ I,
For my part it was not forward to announce your qualifications; it helped as you said to "place" you. But then I would also expect you to realise that for intermodulation of whatever nature to occur, some or other form of non-linearity has to be present in the medium under discussion. How are you going to show this for copper wire? Useful as they are, qualitive statements simply do not constitute proof, I fear.


I really believe that the hearing sensations mentioned in this thread were honest, as interpreted by the subjects. I myself was part of such tests [when my hearing was still up to scratch (no pun) weep weep], and can witness to coming to the wrong conclusions, as mentioned above. It is not a shortcoming or shame, it is the way our ears (+ brain) work, as do our other senses. I wish there was space to post some visual material that would really flummox folks; I guess those are not unknown.