Bi Wiring

[Seth=L]

I'm confused because each wire is still carrying the entire spectrum of information. Both wires come from the same source with the source putting out the complete spectrum. There is no active separation of the frequencies (active crossover...) in the speaker terminal posts at the receiver.

You are confused for good reason. From a logical standpoint it makes little difference electrically and possibly no difference audibly.

 

[pzaur]

Sorry, I'll have to go back and re-edit the opening statement. I'm really not confused. It's hard to impart voice inflection through typing...

 

[Seth=L]

Sorry, I'll have to go back and re-edit the opening statement. I'm really not confused. It's hard to impart voice inflection through typing...

I didn't think you where really confused.

 

[mtrycrafts]

There has never been a speaker that has shown any audible difference under any real world test circumstances to make any difference at all... ever.

Hhmmm; I guess BMX is pretty old since he obviously has tested every speaker ever made under every possible set of conditions!

Seriously; bi-wiring CAN make a difference if done correctly. The effectiveness of bi-wiring has nothing to do with cable size but all to with intermodulation distortion. The strong magnetic field generated by the low frequency current in the cable interacts with delicate magnetic field generated by the high frequency current in the cable. This interaction causes distortion.

Bi-wiring mitigates or eliminates this distortion by separating the low frequency conductor from the high frequency conductor. The key word is separate. It's of no value to run the two cables bundled together (even though this is what 50 percent or more of audiophiles do).

To make bi-wiring effective the two cables need to be separated by a few inches. If you haven't bi-wired with separate cables, you haven't bi-wired.

My two cents!!

Russ (BSEE, MSEE)

Then you have this distortion documented on a scope? Can you post those pictures please? Some of us would be most interested in them.

And, at what current level and frequency interaction would this be audible? Say that 200watt spike at 50Hz and that 1 watt signal at 200Hz that happens to still run in the same wire, or that 250Hz, or 175Hz at .3 watts, what about them? How do you separate them out? Or, only that 5kHz at 50ma is affected?

Also, you have some controlled(DBT) listening tests to support your speculations???

 

[Davemcc]

The effectiveness of bi-wiring has nothing to do with cable size but all to with intermodulation distortion. The strong magnetic field generated by the low frequency current in the cable interacts with delicate magnetic field generated by the high frequency current in the cable. This interaction causes distortion.

Russ (BSEE, MSEE)

Doesn't this imply some type of high pass/low pass filter for each cable to separate the strong and "delicate" magnetic fields, only to be recombined and separated again by the crossover?

 

[fmw]

Anyone out there know much about bi wiring? I am thinking of trying this on my Polk mains, but does it really make much of a difference? Thanks. Mike.

I've never been able to hear any effect from biwiring. I've been fooling with audio for about 45 years and biwiring has never done anything I could hear, even with speakers costing $10K per pair. Many of the "techniques" that come from high end audio are more for the soul than the ears of the listener. In my opinion, biwiring is one of those techniques. In other words I would advise you not to waste the time unless you need to feed the soul.

 

[avaserfi]

Buy-wiring my not work but I swear that jar O'rocks I got and that wooden knob I have work wonders the real thing everyone needs to learn is how to tell the scams from the tweaks .

 

[Seth=L]

Buy-wiring my not work but I swear that jar O'rocks I got and that wooden knob I have work wonders the real thing everyone needs to learn is how to tell the scams from the tweaks .

Hey wait guys, I am getting a call from Machina Dynamica, BRB.







OK, I am back.

OMG, my keyboard types better now, my internet is faster, my refrigerator is colder, my knives are sharper, and wouldn't you know it my stereo sounds better too.

 

[russ_l]

I'm confused because each wire is still carrying the entire spectrum of information. Both wires come from the same source with the source putting out the complete spectrum. There is no active separation of the frequencies (active crossover...) in the speaker terminal posts at the receiver

Each cable in a bi-wire setup only carries the frequencies allowed by the (now separated) crossover in the speaker. The low frequency cable sees an inductive load in the crossover only allowing the low frequencies to conduct in that leg; the high frequency cable sees a capacitive load in the crossover only allowing the high frequencies to conduct in that leg.

In other words, the splitting of the crossover (the removal of the jumpers) passively separates the low frequency content from the hight frequency content in the two cables to the speaker.

 

[markw]

Each cable in a bi-wire setup only carries the frequencies allowed by the (now separated) crossover in the speaker. The low frequency cable sees an inductive load in the crossover only allowing the low frequencies to conduct in that leg; the high frequency cable sees a capacitive load in the crossover only allowing the high frequencies to conduct in that leg.

This argument might hold some weight if the crossover wer removed from the speaker and moved to the amp's output. Now, wires leading from the (now moved) crossover to the speakers would indeed be handling separate frequency ranges.

 

[russ_l]

Doesn't this imply some type of high pass/low pass filter for each cable to separate the strong and "delicate" magnetic fields, only to be recombined and separated again by the crossover?

Dave- see my response above. The low and high frequencies never recombine, but go to their respective drivers (only) once the crossover is split into two legs by removal of the jumper straps.

Note to all looking at this thread - my first post said ..." bi-wiring CAN make a difference....". I did not say that it always makes a difference. I tried to explain in laymen’s terms why it SHOULD make a difference if done correctly.

I'm an audiophile (or as my wife says, "one of those") since 1961 and I've done it all including a TRI-wired pair of Hyperion 938s. Bi-wiring does work if done correctly.

 

[Seth=L]

russ_l

The two wires are right next to one another at the speaker output terminal at the amplifier.

Bi-wiring essentially moves where the jumper is located. Instead of the jumper being at the speakers it is now at the amp.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

But it may look cool when non-audiophiles come over and look at the back of your speakers. They only have one set of wires going to their HTIB speakers that they own and you have two.

 

[Seth=L]

But it may look cool when non-audiophiles come over and look at the back of your speakers. They only have one set of wires going to their HTIB speakers that they own and you have two.

ROTFLMAO.

 

[j_garcia]

Dave- see my response above. The low and high frequencies never recombine, but go to their respective drivers (only) once the crossover is split into two legs by removal of the jumper straps.

Note to all looking at this thread - my first post said ..." bi-wiring CAN make a difference....". I did not say that it always makes a difference. I tried to explain in laymen’s terms why it SHOULD make a difference if done correctly.

I'm an audiophile (or as my wife says, "one of those") since 1961 and I've done it all including a TRI-wired pair of Hyperion 938s. Bi-wiring does work if done correctly.

Russ, you are mistaken. The wire carries the entire range of signal sent from the receiver; it has NO WAY of knowing whether it is hooked up to a tweeter or woofer any more than it knows what day it is. The crossover does not "push back" to the amp now that you have connected extra wires to it. While there may only be the draw from each respective section of the speaker connected on each wire, the fully amplified signal IS traveling on each wire.

If you put a splitter on a faucet and then hook up two different color hoses to it, you don't get different water from each one...

 

[russ_l]

Russ, you are mistaken. The wire carries the entire range of signal sent from the receiver; it has NO WAY of knowing whether it is hooked up to a tweeter or woofer any more than it knows what day it is. The crossover does not "push back" to the amp now that you have connected extra wires to it. While there may only be the draw from each respective section of the speaker connected on each wire, the fully amplified signal IS traveling on each wire.

J- totally wrong on your part. If you write the transfer equation for the voltage at the speaker as a function of the voltage at the amplifier you'll see that. I'll explain in laymen's terms knowing that you’re (probably) unable to do so.

In the extreme case, the crossover to the woofer is a pure inductor, which only passes DC; that's it; nothing else travels down that cable. In the extreme case, the crossover to the tweeter is a pure capacitor which only passes frequencies so high that even dogs can not hear them. Of course these are extremes. The mid/woofer cable in a real crossover may see up to 2 kHz, the tweeter cable everything above 2 kHz.

This is the first time I've ever put BSEE, MSEE after my name in all the years I've been posting. It's looks conceited on my part but I'm trying to add some credence to my statements. 50% of what is posted on the various websites is pure bullshit IMHO. People who either don't have a clue, or brand X is best because that's what they own. They never ever heard brand Y or Z, etc..

Again, bi-wiring can work well when done properly.

 

[markw]

Properly?

Again, bi-wiring can work well when done properly.

There's really only one way to do it.

 

[j_garcia]

In the extreme case, the crossover to the woofer is a pure inductor, which only passes DC; that's it; nothing else travels down that cable. In the extreme case, the crossover to the tweeter is a pure capacitor which only passes frequencies so high that even dogs can not hear them. Of course these are extremes. The mid/woofer cable in a real crossover may see up to 2 kHz, the tweeter cable everything above 2 kHz.

OK, so explain how the wire BEFORE the crossover is influenced by it? You aren't selling your case very well here.

And you will have to define "properly" as well, since there really is only one way to bi-wire as markw notes.

 

[ParadigmDawg]

That's it; I am going to Seth's house and getting some bi-wire that he keeps hidden in his closet with his blow-up doll and bi-wiring my speakers...

 

[obscbyclouds]

Seriously; bi-wiring CAN make a difference if done correctly. The effectiveness of bi-wiring has nothing to do with cable size but all to with intermodulation distortion. The strong magnetic field generated by the low frequency current in the cable interacts with delicate magnetic field generated by the high frequency current in the cable. This interaction causes distortion.

Bi-wiring mitigates or eliminates this distortion by separating the low frequency conductor from the high frequency conductor. The key word is separate. It's of no value to run the two cables bundled together (even though this is what 50 percent or more of audiophiles do).

To make bi-wiring effective the two cables need to be separated by a few inches. If you haven't bi-wired with separate cables, you haven't bi-wired.

My two cents!!

Russ (BSEE, MSEE)

What happens inside the reciever/amp where two cables attach to the same post, also, when you attach them to the binding posts in the speakers, rarely more than a few inches apart? Are these not subject to this distortion?