Center channel expertise required

no. 5

no. 5

Audioholic Field Marshall
I have to tell you, when I see large wood grained speakers I think "outdated", "definiely 70's". When I see smaller, sleek, black or silver speakers (especially on stands) I think "modern" both in look & technology. That's probably a joke to you guys, huh? Have I been duped by Costco & Best Buy?
Naw, it's personal taste; gloss black looks good too. :)
 
velcrometer

velcrometer

Junior Audioholic
Here is a link to my recent set up......twotreesrig.shutterfly.com as you can see I am partial to the silver and black set up. My speakers are the Mordaunt Short 500 series. I like them because, a. they sound excellent, and b. they have "side firing" subwoofers built into each front speaker. The set of fronts, rears and center is going for about $1500.....which is a good deal if you consider you're getting two subwoofers in the bargain......
I'll bet that setup is fabulous! I like the built in side woofers. Your photo's show the grills removed. I've seen this commonly since starting this research project. Why is that?

I spent a good deal of time yesterday measuring what I could fit next to my TV. I'm going with the AV123 x-sls towers (that's the one like the bookshelf speakers but with the bigger cabinet). I just couldn't fit the bigger mtm towers, they were so tall & obtrusive in my space. Adding two x-ls bookshelf surrounds, one x-cs center, and an x-sub all in black comes to $876. It's really the price range I was hoping for & I'm soooo happy everyone here offered their advice to get me there.

I was looking at the Yamaha AV-R661 that ChrisJam recommended because it has HDMI. But, 2 of 8 customer reviews on Amazon said they had problems with the HDMI. The other 6 reviewers loved it. The 2 negative reviews are at the bottom of this post.

IF I got the previous version AV-R659 can I get the same viewing quality without the HDMI connection? I'm currently using the RCA cables that came with & wanted to upgrade to the HDMI. Is there another connection, cable, etc. that will get me the same great quality without HDMI? Is this a good idea? Is it better to have the 661 with HDMI because I'm getting the Oppo DVD player? I really don't know how all these items interact. I'm not even sure what "HDMI switching" is. I just don't want to buy a receiver that isn't going to work with the rest.

REVIEWS: "Bought this receiver from Best Buy for $499. Hooked up a Samsung HD860 upconvert DVD player and a new DirecTV HD20-700 to the HDMI ports. The DVD player would start play for a few minutes then disconnect and try to reconnect continuously. Sat box worked fine until you changed the input to something else then it would not reconnect. Most frustrating part was to get it all working again, all the power cords and HDMI cables had to be unplugged. Doing one or the other would not work. Receiver would also shut itself off after a few minutes of playing at moderately high volume. Not sure what the problem was. Wiring all checked out ok. Not a good experience but at least Best Buy took it back with no problem. I'm going with the RX-V659 and forego the HDMI switching."

"I just bought this receiver and connected it to my Oppo HD Up-Converting DVD Player and Direct TV HD DVR. It worked Great in the beginning but for some reason, the HDMI Connection just happened to stop working! I spent about 4 hours testing each HDMI cable, and reading the Instruction manual. The speakers work fine, the IPOD connection works great, but the reason I bought this machine was for the HDMI Connection. I've worked with receivers in the past and know my way around these things, but am I missing something? I hope OneCall will replace this machine with something that works."
 
ChrisJam

ChrisJam

Full Audioholic
These Phase Tech Premiers, $600 is for EACH speaker? Wow, they must be great. Even the AV123 x-mtm pair is only $449. There's that much of a difference? When I see the major price difference going up from the AV123s I have to wonder how much of a listening difference it will make for me. Remember, I'm coming from NO gear. Just using the TV speakers. This is where you tell me I'll be perfectly happy with the cheaper ones ;-)
Ah...you'll be happy with the cheaper ones. :p

Seriously, you will. I have a good friend with a birthday coming up in a couple months. He basically has no real audio system now. His wife was looking for birthday gift ideas for him, and I suggested a pair of AV123 x-ls speakers. I told her that she'll never run out of gift ideas. Christmas? An x-sub and/or a new receiver. Father's Day? An x-cs. Birthday again? Well, the list goes on.

Just so you know, I haven't had a chance to hear any AV123 speakers. But I've never heard a bad word about any of them, and that's rare. Usually someone hates a certain speaker. For example, I hate the B&W 705, which retails for $1500/pair. People I respect on this site love AV123 speakers, so I'm happy to recommend them sight unseen. Or sight unheard. ;)

If you want to learn more about the Phase Techs, look at this thread I started last year:
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27344

Follow jaxvon's links in that thread, too. He loves Phase Tech.



I don't know what "down-firing" is. Cat is declawed, he's neutered too in case you wondered. Seemed like the oddest question, you MUST tell me how that matters??? Oh, these grills are probably cloth. Damn Costco & their small, sleek, metal grilled, modern looking speakers!
I see that no. 5 already explained what a down-firing sub woofer is and explained the claw problem.

I have two cats. Though they're not destructive cats, they're interested in something new, and will touch it. If they discovered that it felt good to their claws (they're both neutered but not declawed), they might think that my new speaker was a new scratching post.

When I got my sub, I deliberately looked for a down-firing one. My bookshelf speakers are placed high enough that the cats can't scratch them. The can't reach the face of my center speaker, either. My surrounds are small enough that they aren't a good scratching post.

So when it comes time for me to shop for new speakers, I'll have to do my best to find cat-proof ones. I'm starting to think that I might try a front-firing sub, though. It'd probably be low enough to the ground that a cat wouldn't want to scratch the cloth grill.

But a typical floor-standing speaker? Instant scratching post!

There are some good speakers with metal grills--the Canton Ergo series and AAD's 2000 series to name just two. Both get good reviews. (The AADs are pretty darned expensive, though.) I think the Definitive Technology Mythos series speakers have a metal grill, too. This line is sleek and modern-looking.

Chris
 
ChrisJam

ChrisJam

Full Audioholic
I was looking at the Yamaha AV-R661 that ChrisJam recommended because it has HDMI. But, 2 of 8 customer reviews on Amazon said they had problems with the HDMI. The other 6 reviewers loved it. The 2 negative reviews are at the bottom of this post.

IF I got the previous version AV-R659 can I get the same viewing quality without the HDMI connection? I'm currently using the RCA cables that came with & wanted to upgrade to the HDMI. Is there another connection, cable, etc. that will get me the same great quality without HDMI? Is this a good idea? Is it better to have the 661 with HDMI because I'm getting the Oppo DVD player? I really don't know how all these items interact. I'm not even sure what "HDMI switching" is. I just don't want to buy a receiver that isn't going to work with the rest.
I have absolutely no experience with HDMI. I still have a cathode-ray TV. It's a 35-incher, we can see it well from our couch, it's going strong, and I see no reason to switch it unless it dies. It does not have HDMI. My AVR is a late-1990s Yamaha, and it has no HDMI. Same for the DVD player.

I'm trying to learn about HDMI, though. Here are some links I read recently:

http://www.dcables.net/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=10

http://www.squidoo.com/ehdmi/

http://www2.dvigear.com/hdmifaq1.html

http://www.hdmi.info/hdmi-faqs.html

http://www.prillaman.net/hdmi_faq.html

http://www.bettercables.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=20


Chris
 
ChrisJam

ChrisJam

Full Audioholic
Dunno. Is it just a matter of space? If I read it right, one of them uses the center channel speaker arrangment in the floor speakers. Is it 'better' to have all 3 front speakers the same as the center channel? That's not the usual setup is it? You guys know the dialogue problems Hubby has, will this be an improvement? Also, how much better are the Rockets? Worth the extra?
For most people, it's a matter of space and how the speakers will look in the room. Some people want unobtrusive speakers, so no floor-standers for them.

If you plan on putting bookshelf speakers on a stand, then there's little little floor space difference between a tower and the bookshelf/stand combo. If you think you'd get stands for the x-ls, then the tower version, the x-sls, would give you the same footprint and would save you money. Getting the tower version would cost less than buying two x-ls speakers and two stands.

If you want to stay with the x-series and want the best match left, right, and center, then consider the x-cs for the center, and two x-mtm speakers. The MTM is the tower version of the x-cs, and would give you great across-the-front sound without costing much.

There's nothing wrong, though, with pairing an x-cs with two x-ls's or two x-sls's for mains. Many people have done that, and love their system.

I've read that the Rockets are a good step up in sound. The center channel in that series, the RSC200, is supposed to be stunning, but it's also huge. Given your main criterium, I'd consider it. But note the 200's dimensions and weight:
12" H x 10.5" D x 25" W
46 lbs

Be sure you have a place under or above your TV that can accommodate that behemoth.

Also note that the 200 has a 4-Ohm impedence. Other speakers in the Rocket line vary from 6- to 8-Ohms. If you get the Yamaha 661 amp, it should have no problem handling a set of 4-Ohm speakers. But I'll let someone who's more experienced than I am talk about setting up a speaker system with mixed impedances.



I must thank you all again for your help. I told Hubby that when this is all done I'll have to mount a plaque with your names on it like when they dedicate the new wing of a hospital...

"The sublime movie experience you are about to enjoy is due to the unceasing dedication & generous analytical contributions of..."

mazersteven
adam
Leprkon
ChrisJam
davidwotrees
jcPanny
no. 5

Thanks to you all!​
Ah, velcrometer, that's sweet! Thanks!

And you're welcome. :)

Chris
 
ChrisJam

ChrisJam

Full Audioholic
Sweet?


velcrometer Thanks you for the kind words.


Sweet?
OK, I'm scratching my head about you scratching your head. Am I missing something obvious? Wouldn't be the first time, but I'm sure not getting it.

Chris :)
 
davidtwotrees

davidtwotrees

Audioholic General
I'll bet that setup is fabulous! I like the built in side woofers. Your photo's show the grills removed. I've seen this commonly since starting this research project. Why is that?
Audiophiles remove the grills as they would restrict or color the sound coming from the speakers. I just do it cuz it looks cool.:)
 
hemiram

hemiram

Full Audioholic
It sounds like your husband has a pretty bad hearing loss. I have a friend of mine who was an MP in Veitnam and spent a lot of time near jet aircraft, and he complained and complained about not understanding the "mumbling" dialouge. He had his hearing tested and the loss above 2K was huge. He tried hearing aids and they drove him crazy. When he set his home theater up, he liked the treble set so far up that I was ready to lose my mind, and his wife couldn't be in the same room with it set like that. When they watch a movie together now, he wears open ear headphones plugged into a cheap amp and he can run the treble to ear bleeding level and set the volume where he wants it. The bass still gets through ok, and his wife likes it a lot better than wearing earplugs, or trying to ignore the way it sounded.

You might want to take hubby to an ear doc and have his ears looked at, it might just be that they are plugged with hardened wax. A guy I worked with had a ton of "gunk" in his ears that cut the treble way down. When the doctor got it out, it "cured" a lot of his hearing loss. He goes twice a year to get the stuff removed and has no problems anymore. Some men lose their hearing as they age much faster than women do, but 46 is pretty young. I can hear past 20K with my right ear, but there's a "dip" from too many Funny Car races at 2K. My left ear starts to fade at 16K, but there's no "dip", so a phone is much clearer on my left ear, and sounds louder. I have exceptional hearing for an almost 51 year old, but it's really bad compared to what it was when I was 30. When I was in high school, I could hear oscillators in digital watches and the tuning forks in the accurtron watches from accross the room. Now I have to put them right next to my ears to hear them.
 
velcrometer

velcrometer

Junior Audioholic
When they watch a movie together now, he wears open ear headphones plugged into a cheap amp and he can run the treble to ear bleeding level and set the volume where he wants it.
The hearing anecdotes you wrote were quite informative to me. There's no wax, I've been in there with a flashlight on several occasions with the same hypothesis, but to no avail.

However, I am quite interested in the 'open ear headphones plugged into a cheap amp' idea. Is there a thread, aritcle, or link I can check out regarding that equipment? If the speakers I'm picking up today don't do the job for him (maybe he'll want high treble too) I will definitely go with the headphones. Thanks for the great recommendation.

Today I'm picking up 4 pre-owned AV123 Onix Rocket RS550 Mark II towers and an RSC200 center. Supposedly all in very good condition for $1000. I'm excited! If these don't do it for him, he's going to the doctor. ;-)
 
mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
Today I'm picking up 4 pre-owned AV123 Onix Rocket RS550 Mark II towers and an RSC200 center. Supposedly all in very good condition for $1000. I'm excited! If these don't do it for him, he's going to the doctor. ;-)
Congratulations.


I wish you many years of enjoyment with your new gear. :D
 
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mazersteven

mazersteven

Audioholic Warlord
However, I am quite interested in the 'open ear headphones plugged into a cheap amp' idea. Is there a thread, aritcle, or link I can check out regarding that equipment? If the speakers I'm picking up today don't do the job for him (maybe he'll want high treble too) I will definitely go with the headphones. Thanks for the great recommendation.
O no you didn't.


"Entering a Whole New World"

 
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velcrometer

velcrometer

Junior Audioholic
Got my speakers today! They are BEAUTIFUL!!! Rosewood w/gloss black tops. Excellent condition, except the spot I nicked getting them home. :-(

I can't believe I was able to get these for $1000. They are even a better size in my room than the x-sls model. I can't wait to get the rest:

Sub:
Receiver:
DVD player:

My husband's going to freak when he comes home & sees these beauties!

P.S. They're heavy
 
davidtwotrees

davidtwotrees

Audioholic General
OOOOOOooooooh, those sure are purdy speakers!:)
 
velcrometer

velcrometer

Junior Audioholic
Here's a photo. Turns out they are the ebony, not rosewood. Pretty!
 
D

Dolby CP-200

Banned
PROBLEM: My main goal in getting surround sound is to help my husband hear the dialogue! He can't hear clearly when there's any background noise in a movie, it makes the voices harder to distinguish. I'm constantly 'translating' for him & he's only 46! I know some people want the big booming sound in home theater. That's great, but my real focus here is CLARITY, of dialogue especially. Someone told me that it's all about the center channel & that's where the dialogue comes from. Will dialogue come from one of the smaller speakers set directly next to my husband's head?

CURRENT GEAR: I have a 62" HD Mitsubishi DLP. We watch regular TV programs or order movies via pay-per-view from our cable provider. Our current DVD player is a $65 Phillips I got just to watch exercise CD's with, it's crap & so we don't use it for movie DVD's at all, even though we have this great widescreen DLP, sad I know. I'd like a new one.

No, I don't know what I'm doing.

BUDGET: $1500-$2500 for speaker system, receiver & DVD player. Do I need special wires/cables, powerstrips, etc? $2500 is my max.

THE ROOM: I'm read that room size should influence my choices. Living room is 20' x 28' with ceiling height starting at 10' & peaking in the middle at 11'. Dining room is at one end & takes up 11' with a tile floor. The main TV viewing area is 20' x 17' and all carpet. The wall behind the TV is all huge windows with living room to the left of the TV & dining room to the right of it. TV angles toward the living room. I can't move the TV because the room is very bright & this was the only spot to see it clearly with little glare. It's a house so I'm not worried about the neighbors like I would be in an apartment.

I have space on either side of the TV for floor standing speakers, but cannot mount them on the wall behind because the wall is all glass windows. Cannot put the center channel below the TV because there is a loveseat there, but it could be mounted above the TV. Where the sub goes is to the left of the loveseat I think? Can't put it to the right, fireplace is there.

Plenty of space (2-4 feet deep) behind the main 11' long sofa for floor standing speakers, and to either side of it.

POSIBILITIES: I read good reviews for Harmon Kardon HKTS 14 speakers, it has a 12" 200 watt sub, but is the center channel enough? I wanted sleek, demure speakers but will they do the job? My friend is now getting the Klipsch 52 system, his brother-in-law is an audiophile so maybe this is a better choice though more money? Should I go with 5.1 or 7.1 (just 2 extra speakers right?)

Since my room is kinda big, how far can I string speaker wire without degrading the sound? This may be a stupid question but I heard that your cables & wires can make a big difference. I don't even have an HDMI cable yet for my TV, and yes I'm ashamed. ;-)

Thank you in advance for your advice, it won't fall on deaf ears. ;-)

You need to do this the right way and not the wrong which is what you’re doing and its what I have learned though listening not only to dialogue as this can be played back in many forms of loudness from soft whispery sounds like when, “Neil McCauley” in (Heat 1995) is talking softly to “Trejo” the sound is so realistic you have to lean forwards to grasp what is being said, this was the case even on the professional JBL 4675-A loudspeakers at the ABC screen #1 when I first saw Heat in Dolby stereo type SR, only they where using type A cards for the NR in the Dolby CP-200.

Now in the home its the same thing it must have a realistic sounding approach from the softest whisper to loud undistorted sounds!

Now here’s one way to tackle this, buy a Behringer DCX2496 and matching amplifiers and more importantly matching loudspeakers.

Set the levels so that the left and right have equally the same sound pressure and frequency response, then test the centre channel out on its own of course, note the differences in the SPL db level and then set the main levels to match the centre channel level in (sound pressure level). This takes hours to do right but its rewards are well worth it will less loudness on the left and right and with the centre channel delayed only and phased checked as well to make sure its in-phase when all three matching LCR have equal amounts of bass, like in the opening of Titanic.

Not only will this make centre channel dialogue easy to follow but it will also make the music sound better as well with Dolby films especially on the end credits of Star Wars Episode 3 Revenge of Sith, even the smallest high note sound can be heard in the centre channel along with the rest of the competition on the left and right with high string violins and violas as well as in the centre channel mix.

Most of what the manufactures are telling us is not all true its only half and if you what to do this right you have to shell out a bit of dosh, I don’t mean it should cost a few grand for one product that is silly! I’ve only spent less than £500.00 in the last few months and the improvement is tenfold better than what it was originally, now then.

I understand the placement for loudspeakers, but if there is one word I don’t what to hear, and that’s the word impossible.

I tell you why most of you’re are getting this wrong! It’s the size of the silly TV monitor VS the costly home cinema loudspeakers and AVR and the rest. You have to plan it out with either a video projector if you really what to show off, or don’t moan about this because as far as I’m conceded I’ve heard this all before, which is why cinemas are far better sounding than most of our home cinemas.

Lastly its research stop looking at all the junk yard home cinema sites, the only thing you’d need from them is an affordable AVR with Dolby-EX dts-ES and few other trimmings to accommodate the silly HD-DVD Blu-Ray format war!

The rest go to a PA store and get the best at the best price use large 18” sub bass cinema types that are so well up to the task, get large 12” to 15” bass mid driver cabs for LCR and HF horns and use active crossover!

Use 1/3 octave EQ 31 bands for each of the LCR and surrounds.

Use larger speakers for the surrounds in that large room of yours I mean most small cinemas are that size here in the United Kingdom, and they all use JBL professional not some junk yard rich mans home cinema equipment.

If you what the best its not far away from I’d bet you 10p there’s PA store down the road from, or look around the Internet, I grantee with less than a week you’d find some products that would but huge smile on that face that will stretch from one side of the state to the other.:)
 
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D

Dolby CP-200

Banned
Further more I plan very soon to place a sodden platform above the TV monitor placing loudspeakers on top of TV monitors is BAD! Not bad in terms of the magnet pulling on the (elector guns) inside the TV no. I’m talking about different frequencies at different sound pressure levels where it will create a buzzing sound for example 100Hz might start to sound like the loudspeaker is distorting, when in fact it’s the TV cabinet.

Rule number #1 the loudspeakers must be kept freely away from the TV and supported by an independent platform extending the entire width of the room if necessary.
 
davidtwotrees

davidtwotrees

Audioholic General
Here's a photo. Turns out they are the ebony, not rosewood. Pretty
Look at you! Not here a week and you've got four ebony encrusted towers and a center channel as big a suitcase! Audioholic, audioholic!:)
 

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