Voodoo boxes, what do you think? (BBE, Aphex 204)

[ski2xblack]

I realize that audio purists will cringe at the thought of using devices which change the signal in any way, but I wanted to see what others had to say.

So here goes...

I use a BBE 362 Sonic Maximizer in each of my systems and absolutely love what they do to the music. I have also played around with the Aphex 204, and although it does similar things to the music, it is less pracical due to the sheer number of adjustments. Folks who have heard these items in my system are almost always floored by the improvement in the sound. I have never paid more than $80 for a 362 at the local musician/guitar store, and they are the best bang for the buck for improved sound IMO.

Who else has used these? Whaddaya think?

 

[highfihoney]

I have not used them & have little interest in them but if they make music more to your tastes then why worry what others think.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I realize that audio purists will cringe at the thought of using devices which change the signal in any way, ...?

Yet they buy SETs, etc that murders the incoming signal

 

[hemiram]

I realize that audio purists will cringe at the thought of using devices which change the signal in any way, but I wanted to see what others had to say.

So here goes...

I use a BBE 362 Sonic Maximizer in each of my systems and absolutely love what they do to the music. I have also played around with the Aphex 204, and although it does similar things to the music, it is less pracical due to the sheer number of adjustments. Folks who have heard these items in my system are almost always floored by the improvement in the sound. I have never paid more than $80 for a 362 at the local musician/guitar store, and they are the best bang for the buck for improved sound IMO.

Who else has used these? Whaddaya think?

I never liked BBE for home use, but I got hooked on it when I had a JVC car stereo with it. Run on the lowest setting, it really was nice. Sadly, that unit had issues, and JVC wasn't much help, so I swapped it for a Panasonic that honestly doesn't sound quite as good, but it works, something the JVC didn't do very well. Another bonus, the Panasonic cost less than half what the JVC H/U did, and sounds 95% as good.

 

[MDS]

What does the BBE voodoo box claim to do (besides magically make sound and/or video 'better')?

 

[ski2xblack]

What does the BBE voodoo box claim to do (besides magically make sound and/or video 'better')?

Here is a link to the BBE site. Scroll down to the consumer electronics part for details.

http://www.bbesound.com/technologies/BBE_HDS/

According to the manual, here is what it does:
"The BBE Process imparts a pre-determined phase correction to the high frequencies where most harmonic information exists. This is done by breaking the signal into three sub-bands or groups: the low frequency group which is crossed over at 150hz, the midrange group which is crossed over at 1200hz, and the high frequency group that handles everything else up to 20K hz. The low group is delayed about 2.5 milliseconds via a group delay within a passive low pass filter. The front panel control allows for either a flat response or a boost of the lows at 50hz. The midrange group is delayed only about .5 ms and passes through an active band-pass filter while the high frequency group is passed through a high quality VCA (voltage controlled amplifier). The high group is used as a point of referency to make dynamic amplitude correction to the high frequencies. The RMS average loudness detectors continuously monitor bothe the midrange and high frequencies to compare the relative harmonic content levels of the two bands and apply the appropriate amount of control voltage to the VCA, thereby determining the amound of high frequency harmonic content present at the final output of the BBE processor."

Whew.

I originally experience BBE with my Alpine car stereo. I was looking for a way to essentially have a variable loudness control for my home setup. The 362 and 482 Sonic Maximizers are processors typically used in production and live shows, and have far more control than the BBE's in mobile audio. The 'low contour' and 'process' controls of the BBE can boost the bass and increase subjective brightness in a continuously controllable manner for low volume listening, creating a natural sounding tonal balance. (I needed this due to music addiction combined with sleeping housemates.) In this capacity, the BBE is great. However, I found that when listening at normal (for me, loud) volumes, that I preferred the sound with the BBE in the signal path, with much lower settings, to that without BBE in the mix. Granted, like most eq's, it is easy to over do things, but with the controls set at lower levels the effect was subtle but noticeably better. Specifically, it brings the soundstage up closer and creates added definition and realism to instruments, makes the soundstage more pronounced, and generally creates a more exciting sound. I've heard what it does described as "eyeglasses for your music", which is a good analogy. It doesn't really alter the tonal balance if used judicously, and can create a sense of 'air' and presence which is highly addictive, a very lively effect.

I have a very resolving system already (Yamaha S1700, older Sony ES cd player for sources, NAD C372, active crossover, and M&K 2.1 setup...it's pretty darn nice sounding straight up). The BBE, with modest settings, really takes it to another level. The difference is even more dramatic on lesser systems (perhaps because they have more room for improvement), and I have added BBE's to my thrashed upon living room system, as well as to friend's and family's systems as a cheap but signifigant improvement. Everyone I have turned on to the BBE is a believer, and rarely if ever run them out of the signal path.

I had discussions with Barry Ober at M&K (RIP...such a shame), and he too likes what the BBE can do, but suggested that I try out the Aphex 204. That unit also does phase/harmonic mystery voodoo, and is kind of like a BBE on steroids. I found the over-abundance of controls, and the fact that you have to adjust it for each different album, that the BBE is much more practical, although the Aphex is a highly habit forming toy. Here is a quite thorough review from Secrets on the Aphex:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_3/aphex-204-big-bottom-7-2004.html

The BBE Sonic Maximizer may seem gimmicky, but it really does enhance the subjective experience. And they are only $80 at your local Guitar Center store. Anyone looking for an inexpensive yet dramatic enhancement should check 'em out, even if just out of curiousity.

 

[ski2xblack]

I have not used them & have little interest in them but if they make music more to your tastes then why worry what others think.

Not worried what others think, just tryin' to spread the love, maybe turn a few on to this.

I find it particularly good for older, less well produced recordings. Right now, with the process off, Zep is simply coming from my stereo, albeit in a mercilessly revealing way. (My system is quite decent.) Engage the process, and WOW, Zep is performing LIVE, right in my room! It's pretty amazing, really. I would favorably compare my mid-fi system w/ BBE to some of my friends considerably more expensive systems.

If you have musician or studio-having friends with one of these, you should borrow it just for kicks.

 

[ski2xblack]

I have not used them & have little interest in them but if they make music more to your tastes then why worry what others think.

Nice system, by the way. (how do you insert the thumbs up icon??) Someday...far in the future...right now I'm drooling with envy.

You have the reproduction part down, most handsomely. The BBE and Aphex peices are more for improving source material. If all audio producers and engineers were as conscientious about how their products sounded as we are about accurate reproduction, such devices would have little value. Since a lot of recordings are sub par in the production side, these magic boxes can and do make big improvements in the sound. I encourage you to check out the review of the Aphex from Secrets for more on this (link in previous comment).

 

[iGirl]

I voted no

All that kind of gear pumps up, compresses and brightens everything to death. They sell a lot of boxes because people are programmed to think it sounds good - "just like the radio"! News flash - radio audio quality is horrible!

Yes, I'm guilty of being an audio industry snob, LOL

 

[ski2xblack]

All that kind of gear pumps up, compresses and brightens everything to death. They sell a lot of boxes because people are programmed to think it sounds good - "just like the radio"! News flash - radio audio quality is horrible!

Yes, I'm guilty of being an audio industry snob, LOL

Greetings iGirl-

I don't think many home audio/theater buffs are incorporating professional studio gear into their rigs. These products may sell well to musicians or sound pros, I really have no idea. But these do not sell to any signifigant degree in the home audio market. Also, have you used either of the devices mentioned personally, or is that just audiophile programming kicking in? If you're correct, then Barry Ober (a genuine audio industry professional), myself, and the reviewer at Secrets are just programmed sheep, right? (At least you admit to being a snob. How's that workin' out for ya?)

Yes, these devices can pump up, compress, and brighten the sound, which is the whole reason I tried it in the first place, for extremely low volume 'loudness' control for late night, unobtrusive listening. However, you can adjust them to have as much or as little process as you want, or simply switch them out of the signal path. I found that I really enjoy the music through these far more than source-amp-speaker pure path music. It's purely subjective, but for me it's good. Really good, enough so to try to start up a conversation about them here.

Regarding your 'make it sound like the radio' comment...Way back in the day, my first stereo receiver was a Yamaha unit with a variable loudness control. That was a feature I found quite useful while living at home with the 'rents and in college with housemates. I bought the Alpine car stereo partially because of the variable loudness aspect of the BBE built into it (but mainly for the high volt output for my amps). The fact that my car stereo had BBE is irrelevant except as my first exposure to their product. In fact, I have done just about everything I could to make my car sound more like my home stereo! (the Alpine mentioned, soundstream acive crossover and amps, fully bi-amped, Boston mains and JL sub, roadkill dampening on all body panels, flat response in the drivers seat down to 20hz on flat settings and BBE disengaged...jees, am I down the audioholic rabbit hole yet??) By getting a pro-audio studio equipment version of the BBE (and the Aphex, which now lives with a musician buddy of mine), I was not in any way trying to make my home stereo sound like my car stereo. Your assumption that that was my goal is simply incorrect. I was merely trying to get similar functionality of a variable loudness control for quiet listening (my snob-grade pre at the time did not have tone controls, after all). It just turns out that these processors enhance the experience quite dramatically, which to me was a pleasant bonus. At first I expected to tire of the sound, but after years of use that has not happened, and I listen to music pretty much constantly. These things really do sweet magic.

I realize thay you are an individual who would not be likely try such a device. Sacrilege to the industry gods, or to audiophiliac dogma perhaps? It's too bad, for these things make listening completely fun. You do enjoy fun things, don't you? Isn't that part of what it takes to be an audioholic?

If you are so inclined, go read the Secrets review. Perhaps you would give their impressions more credence than you do mine. Even better, try one out and see for yourself if it's hooey or not. I think you would be surprised.

Peace, iGirl.

 

[MDS]

Based on the description you provided I wouldn't be quick to dismiss it as snake oil because it doesn't appear to make any magical claims like the makers of magic rocks and cable elevators do.

It is in effect a sort of equalizer and if the results are pleasing to your ears then it is fine. The idea of processing a signal to remove higher order harmonics, especially in the high frequencies, is something that I personally might find useful as I hate exaggerated treble but it would still be low on my list of potential upgrades.

Titling the thread 'voodoo box' though gets the attention of those of us that are so skeptical of wild pseudo-scientific claims, but this device doesn't appear to fall into that category.

 

[ski2xblack]

Titling the thread 'voodoo box' though gets the attention of those of us that are so skeptical of wild pseudo-scientific claims, but this device doesn't appear to fall into that category.

You're right. I probably should have used 'pro-audio processors' instead of voodoo box.

Both the BBE and Aphex work in an additive way, i.e. full counter clock wise on the dials equals flat. Also, the BBE uses dynamic equalization to enhance harmonic content already on the recording, with very natural sounding results, where I think the Aphex actually generates harmonic distordion to create it's effect. I used them with the settings so low that it is difficult to even tell what they do until you take them out of the signal path, when the music seems pale and flat in comparison. Subtle and judicious use of the controls are key.

Even given your high frequency preferences, at low settings these machines bring a realism to strings, brass, piano, and voice that you would probably enjoy, without unwelcome high frequency emphasis.

My better system has razor sharp imaging already, but the M&K's don't present the deepest soundstage. The phase manipulation of the BBE seems to add depth, in addition to the enhanced definition and space of individual instruments. Whatever it's doing, I dig it, if you can't tell.

Here's a blurb from the Secrets review of the Aphex:
"...the processes offered by the Aphex 204 are of undeniable benefit to the recreational listener. I must admit that I’m grateful for the introduction. It’s opening up my eyes, figuratively, and my ears somewhat literally, to more of what recorded audio has to, and should, offer...of the single components I’ve seen that exist for the purpose of enhancing the listening experience, this is one of the most useful I’ve met. It provides much of the unbelievable illusionary capacity that the monopoly of high-end ‘tweak’ components have, without the requirement of swapping cables, spiking isolation platforms, or changing out capacitors or tubes to tailor the sound...the box performed better in the enhancement realm than any single tweak boutique gear ever did, giving me a flood of sensuality, presence, tickling detail, warmth, slam, kick, splash..." You get the idea.

The Aphex street price is about $250, about the same as a cheap cd player. The BBE is less than $100. That these items, which sell for peanuts, can do so much is just incredible.

 

[ski2xblack]

News flash - radio audio quality is horrible!

The only radio I listen to is NPR and KUVO, a commercial free jazz station out of Denver. KUVO does not process their signal as heavily as your typical pop/rock commercial station. They actually sound pretty decent.

 

[iGirl]

Bbe

Sorry if my brief comments struck a nerve, obviously you really like it so please do enjoy by all means! Maybe your poll should not have included the end of the spectrum that doesn't care for the effect?

FWIW, yes, I've tried them and many other similar devices. There's tons of high end tube dynamics processing gear that sounds really amazing. The (non-tube) TC Electronic Finalizer 96K is a far cleaner more versatile box for around $1800 list, TC also sells the System 6000 running from about $5,000 up depending on licenses - but it can do 5.1 dynamics processing and much more! But if your budget is about $200, choices will be limited, and the BBE or Aphex might fit the bill.

While there is a place for "enhancer" boxes in the audio food chain, I did also admit to being that "snob" - I worked for some 30 year in the pro audio business (and I know all ABOUT those soft ball magazine reviews in exchange for ad revenue At the AES Shows I worked every year, the BBE and Aphex booths were always usually empty.

Bottom line is that if it works for you then go with it! Maybe some other folks will like it too so give it a try and see...

Cheers!

 

[ski2xblack]

Hello again iGirl-

Perhaps you think the Secrets reveiw is a soft-ball magazine review. (I don't think they get paid anything, just the option of purchase at a reduced price should the reviewer want to keep the item. I actually like Secrets because of their relative objectivity and lack of puff for the most part.) In that article, the author goes on at some length about expensive equipment upgrades in the quest for magical sound, only to be forced to choose items with fixed amounts of distortion and at huge cost. He was amazed that an inexpensive piece of studio gear was able to provide a significant part of that magic, on demand, by twisting a few knobs. This led to a rant about the quality of recorded music, basically saying "why don't those who produce music make it sound as good on the production side so these things are irrelevant", and that the Aphex is simply a band-aid for such mixing and production shortcomings. My take is, so what if it's a band-aid for poor production if it truly enhances the experience? It's all about the enjoyment of music, right? I'm not going to let the quest for that magical combination cause me to purchase a $5000 processor, and in my jaded later years now feel that the super high end of audio equipment is beyond the point of diminishing returns. Been there, and I would have been much better served putting the money into my IRA than into hyped up expensive toys. Cheap toys that work, however, deserve discussion among music lovers, which is why I started this thread. Thanks for adding to the discussion!

 

[ski2xblack]

Yet they buy SETs, etc that murders the incoming signal

Yes they do, don't they? I must admit that one of the most pleasant systems I have ever heard was a low watt SET amp powering some home grown speakers. It sounded lovely, at least for jazz. I like to rock the house, though, so I am a SS guy. One of these days I will probably whip out the soldering iron and craft a SET amp for myself, as that is a project I think I would find satisfying.

I think that how we process acoustic information accounts for the appeal of SET's (and devices like the BBE for that matter). Once one becomes accustomed to their particular brand of distortion or sonic signature everything else seems pale in comparison, purity of signal be damned. And that is a good thing, if musical enjoyment is your goal. It only becomes confusing if you obsess on having the 'best' equipment or signal path purity or whatnot. What really matters is the huge grin you get when listening to music, not necessarily how you get there. The BBE and Aphex definitely are grin producers!

 

[mtrycrafts]

Based on the description you provided I wouldn't be quick to dismiss it as snake oil because it doesn't appear to make any magical claims like the makers of magic rocks and cable elevators do.

It is in effect a sort of equalizer and if the results are pleasing to your ears then it is fine. The idea of processing a signal to remove higher order harmonics, especially in the high frequencies, is something that I personally might find useful as I hate exaggerated treble but it would still be low on my list of potential upgrades.

Titling the thread 'voodoo box' though gets the attention of those of us that are so skeptical of wild pseudo-scientific claims, but this device doesn't appear to fall into that category.

It sounds like these boxes are filters and phase change devices, manipulated by the user. Changing phase gives the illusion of space.
I guess it would be useful for those who want to re-master the music to their personal taste

 

[ski2xblack]

I guess it would be useful for those who want to re-master the music to their personal taste

And such ability can definitely come in handy. If you've spent thousands to achieve the most neutral, uncolored system possible, then you are starkly faced with the quality of production/mixing/mastering of your music collection. Since only a minority of our collections are properly produced/mixed/mastered, at least those of us who don't strictly limit purchases to audiophile-grade recordings, these devices offer the chance to restore a little life. (Or a lotta life, or anywhere in between.)

When I use the BBE in my system, I have noticed no detrimental effects from having it in the signal chain (no additional background noise, for example, even when playing a 0 bit signal at max volume), but it can really make those old rock cd's not only listenable, but thoroghly enjoyable. Ditto for just about everything else to varying degrees. My old Meter's discs sound like recorded music w/o BBE, but with it I'm transported to Jazz Fest.

A little personalized remastering can be very good indeed. After having tried BBE's in several systems, from budget level (friends/family) to fairly high-end mid fi (which is where I think my primary system falls) to one bona fide high end system (a proud, self proclaimed audiophile buddy of mine), I'm convinced that these devices can take any system a notch closer toward convincing realism.

 

[engelmania]

I've used the BBE 362 in a couple of different systems and have generally liked the results. The main problem though is that not all recordings (or rooms) sound good with it. Currently, I use it with a pair of Klipschorns run by a little T-amp, so you know I'm not a purist, but I am a violinist and I've played in orchestras so I do have a good idea of how things are supposed to sound.

I like the BBE with most classical recordings. When subtley added it can bring out breathiness in horns, bow noise and transients from pizzicato in the strings and heighten orchestral percussion. This is not a huge difference but enough to be noticeable and enjoyable. It makes my listening room sound more like Severance Hall and less like an outdoor bandstand. My father, also has a pair of Klipschorns, but the BBE is completely unneccesary for him because his listening room sounds so much better than mine.

However, with contemporary pop/rock and some jazz, the BBE is often over the top. A lot of engineers tweak their mix and even use devices like these in the final mix. So when you listen at home you're just adding it again and often distorting the sound.

IMO, good for classical and some jazz (the straighter the recording the better), often not good for pop/rock stuff, and actually VERY good for talk radio (brings clarity to voices). But, really a lot depends on your listening room. If your room sounds kind of dead, the BBE can really bring it to life. But if you've got a lively listening room then you probably don't need it.