Listening and Learning

Tom Andry

Tom Andry

Speaker of the House
in all, the final used materials(not including waste and R&D costs) of the actual speaker drivers and cabinet materials, it was in the $1,100-$1,200 USD range.
Speaker drivers and cabinet materials: $1200

Room treatments and electronics: $2000

Knowing how to put it all together to provide a transcendental experience: Priceless!
 
Tomorrow

Tomorrow

Audioholic Ninja
Beautiful presentation, Jax...as always.

Excellent work, WmAx. Your dedication is quite admirable.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Hi WmAx,

....wanting to see why the cabinet is so "dead" is important. What I was really interested in was some of the methods used to damp a cabinet to such an extent.....
I am sorry for the delay in response. I stopped paying attention to replies in this thread some time ago. Better late than never?

The methods used on the speaker covered in this thread, are the following:

(1) 1.25" thick 43lb^ft3 density particle board(a higher density G.P. PB, approximating the density of common MDF, but easier to work with than MDF) was used in construction of all walls and braces.

(2)Extremely heaving racing leaves no more than 3"-4" at any point on any wall not directly tied into an opposing wall, except in the lower bass section, where two points have as much as a 6" distance between braces(due to clearance area for the port routing).

(3) Approximately 1/2" thick of visco-elastic damping material was applied to interior wall surfaces(I used Peel N' Seal, a common roof repair product, in multiple layers).

(4) Midrange driver is mounted on a [stabilization] ring. The ring is mated to the enclosure (in a very deep routed recess) with thick multi-layer rubber/foam gaskets. A screw comes through both the ring and driver holes, with soft neoprene washers to apply some light pressure to front of the driver to hold it in place and to create an effective seal by compressing the foam/rubber layers. No solid connection is made to the enclosure.

(5) The bottom of the enclosure has a suspension system to prevent the speaker from directly connecting to a resonant floor. It is composed of two flat boards, and 4 corner located vertical sliding guides(with thick rubber foam sleeves to prevent direct mechanical contact of the metal guides with the top platform guide holes). A medium density 2" thick rubber closed cell foam product is used as the suspension/cushion between the two boards.

-Chris
 
S

sploo

Full Audioholic
Hi Chris,

I've not been around for a while, so I've only just seen this thread.

Having spoken to you a few times about various speaker/acoustic issues, it's good to see what you're actually putting your knowledge to - and to great effect if jax's post is anything to go by.

I've been looking into some similar aspects, and came to the same conclusions about bracing, and de-coupling of the midbass driver. I hadn't considered de-coupling the speaker from the floor though - which is something I'll look into (though most post-WWII UK houses have solid concrete floors, so this may be less of an issue).

How are you controlling reflection/re-radiation of sound through the midbass driver (other than damping material)? I'm currently looking at using curved sides, coincidentally similar to what John Krutke is detailing on his blog.

I note you're using a ported configuration for the bass section, and have a few questions I'd be grateful if you could answer:

1) Linkwitz appears to favour sealed systems, with EQ to increase bass. What are your thoughts on this, and what steps did you take to keep group delay and port noise low with your design?

2) I take it the port is rear firing? Was this an attempt to aid omni directional response of bass frequencies, or just a practicality issue with the box design?

Finally, for your future designs, are you planning on using the same tweeter, or putting a pair of tweeters front/back ala Linkwitz's Orion++?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
How are you controlling reflection/re-radiation of sound through the midbass driver (other than damping material)? I'm currently looking at using curved sides, coincidentally similar to what John Krutke is detailing on his blog.
If you use the correct internal absorption materials, it is a non-issue. You can directly refer to the A-mounted co-efficient vs. frequency absorption charts of various materials, and pick a type and thickness for each parallel wall group based upon this data. Proper material and application will mean that nearly 100 percent of sound within the intended range will not be reflected or reverberated back to the midrange diaphragm. I use, typically, 8lb/ft^3 density mineral wool board, as is also commonly used in room treatment construction. After all, high density fiberglass and mineral wool of this sort are commonly used in anechoic chamber construction to prevent almost all sound in the intended range from being able to reverberate or reflect. The high density fiberglass/mineral wool is so effective, in fact, that if you use too much, it will even damp the desired resonance at LF in a sealed enclosure, causing LF to reduce in SPL.

1) Linkwitz appears to favour sealed systems, with EQ to increase bass. What are your thoughts on this, and what steps did you take to keep group delay and port noise low with your design?
Group delay in a typical ported alignment, so far as I can tell, is a non-issue. I am not aware of specific credible perceptual study that establishes the levels of delay at subject here in LF to be substantial for musical playback. I have conducted double-blinded ABX tests on prepared samples of music, simulating sealed group delay curve, ported group delay curve, and comparing them to the original. The differences are so small when using a highly linear monitor headphone(with zero room induced effects), that I can not consider it even a factor in a real room. You can PM me for the samples in order to conduct your own ABX if you wish. Note: you can easily achieve the 'sealed' sound with a ported design by applying negative E.Q.(rolling off LF gradually), but have a higher dynamic range at LF with a proper ported system.

Port noise -- this is one 8" woofer per channel. A 3" port PVC port was used. No port noise has ever been induced, that I found to be audible, on musical playback. You can play sustained LF sine waves at higher SPL near the port tuning frequency and hear some minor chaffing. For larger woofers, a larger port must be used, or a large radius must be used on the inside and outside of the port terminations to reduce turbulence along the edges of the vent. Port compression should also be considered, if using large or very high excursion woofers. Even a 6" diameter port may not be sufficient for some [extreme] woofers available today. This must all be balanced in the initial design stages. Obviously, if you are limited to the port size because of other issues, and this limitation you have to make will cause substantial port compression at higher SPL, then you may as well use a sealed system with EQ.

2) I take it the port is rear firing? Was this an attempt to aid omni directional response of bass frequencies, or just a practicality issue with the box design?
Practical box design.

Finally, for your future designs, are you planning on using the same tweeter, or putting a pair of tweeters front/back ala Linkwitz's Orion++?
I will not use the same tweeter in any future design. In the next design, it is intended to use extremely wide dispersion(no more than 3db deviation at +/- 75 degrees at 15khz) tweeters, one on the back, one on the front, and with extremely large front edge radius(6") to have minimum diffraction effects on and off axis, preserving a linear response. I intended to this long before Linkwitz published the Orion ++ information. Also, he is not using tweeters with sufficiently wide dispersion for my purposes. My net result will be almost the same room effect acoustically, as an omnipolar tweeter.

-Chris
 
S

sploo

Full Audioholic
If you use the correct internal absorption materials, it is a non-issue...
Good point. I've got some almost identical density board left from a room treatment project I was doing. I'll do some experiments when I get time.

For aesthetic reasons, I must admit to preferring an egg/aerofoil shaped design (looking down from the top of the cabinet) so using the board in the back would combat the reflections that Krutke notes is a problem with this shape.

The high density fiberglass/mineral wool is so effective, in fact, that if you use too much, it will even damp the desired resonance at LF in a sealed enclosure, causing LF to reduce in SPL.
Interesting. My plan is to produce a bass cabinet, with a separate mid enclosure, so would you suggest using only the visco-elastic damping material in the bass cab (i.e. no wool board)?


Group delay in a typical ported alignment, so far as I can tell, is a non-issue. I am not aware of specific credible perceptual study that establishes the levels of delay at subject here in LF to be substantial for musical playback.
There's some discussion - though nothing conclusive - on John Murphy's site (http://www.trueaudio.com/post_010.htm)

Krutke indicates here (http://zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker16.html) that "if I can keep the group delay below 10ms at the lowest bass guitar tone, (40hz) I'm a happy boy".


...You can PM me for the samples in order to conduct your own ABX if you wish....
Thanks, I'd be very interested in hearing those. I'll PM you.


Port noise...
Understood. Creating flared ports isn't a problem, so this should help. Do you have any thoughts on maximum port speed? I've seen claims that exceeding 10% of the speed of sound in air can be problematic, but also seen a figure of 5%.


...In the next design, it is intended to use extremely wide dispersion(no more than 3db deviation at +/- 75 degrees at 15khz) tweeters, one on the back, one on the front, and with extremely large front edge radius(6") to have minimum diffraction effects on and off axis, preserving a linear response.
This is good news from my point of view - I was considering doing the same (adding a tweeter to both the front and back of the box) and had briefly discussed this with Linkwitz, though he's obviously concentrating more on open baffle systems these days. Lack of time and further information has prevented me from giving this a try as yet.

Another reason I'm looking at creating cabinets using the lamination technique is that you can of course easily create the large radii that help with diffraction effects.

What tweeters are you considering for the design?


I intended to this long before Linkwitz published the Orion ++ information.
Yes, I do indeed recall you mentioning this in a PM conversation we had a while back.

Cheers,

Gordon
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Interesting. My plan is to produce a bass cabinet, with a separate mid enclosure, so would you suggest using only the viscoelastic damping material in the bass cab (i.e. no wool board)?
That depends on the physical size of the cabinet internally and the bandwidth of operation. In fact, if you cross under 100Hz using a 4th order or steeper xover, there is no reason to use any visco-elastic damping on the walls, so long as you have decently braced(no where near the degree needed for a midrange enclosure) in order to push cabinet resonances to 150Hz or higher. This is fairly easy, especially if you use a material like hardwood cabinet plywood. But be certain that you separate the mid cabinet from the bass cabinet with a suspension system, otherwise the midrange cabinet vibrations will transmit to the bass cabinet and excite the wall resonances.

There's some discussion - though nothing conclusive - on John Murphy's site (http://www.trueaudio.com/post_010.htm)

Krutke indicates here (http://zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker16.html) that "if I can keep the group delay below 10ms at the lowest bass guitar tone, (40hz) I'm a happy boy".
I am familiar with the trueaudio.com discussion.

Understood. Creating flared ports isn't a problem, so this should help. Do you have any thoughts on maximum port speed? I've seen claims that exceeding 10% of the speed of sound in air can be problematic, but also seen a figure of 5%.
I have no founded opinion here. Just go with the safest estimate. I have never had a problem with port noise, as I do not typically deal with maximum SPL applications (such as SPL car audio applications). I usually go with a generic rule that has always worked for me: 3" port for 8" - 10" woofers, 4" port for 12" woofers. 6" port for 15" woofers. These values typically keep the air port speed well below the recommended limits within practical application. All ports I use are typically flared inside and out. Of course, if you use a driver such as a JL Audio W7 or similar extreme device, this generic rule set would not apply.


What tweeters are you considering for the design?
This is still undetermined. So far the two most likely contenders are a HiVi RT1 driver element(bare, no face, as this negatively effects polar response and overall linearity) and a BG Neo 3 PDR tweeter, modified by covering the outer left and outer right radiation holes, in order to reduce the horizontal radiation area in order to increase horizontal dispersion. However, the side effect of this requires extensive electronic correction, and ultimately, reduced maximum SPL and increased non-linear distortion.

-Chris
 
S

sploo

Full Audioholic
...But be certain that you separate the mid cabinet from the bass cabinet with a suspension system, otherwise the midrange cabinet vibrations will transmit to the bass cabinet and excite the wall resonances.
Understood.

I had an idea to use magnets to lift the midrange cabinet above the bass enclosure - so it would effectively 'float' on air. I've not considered the design sufficiently yet to determine if the idea is practical.


...I have never had a problem with port noise, as I do not typically deal with maximum SPL applications... ...Of course, if you use a driver such as a JL Audio W7 or similar extreme device, this generic rule set would not apply....
OK. Good. I've no plans to go for the extreme end of the scale - just looking for high quality bass output for musical applications in a 'normal' sized living room.


This is still undetermined. So far the two most likely contenders are a HiVi RT1 driver element(bare, no face, as this negatively effects polar response and overall linearity) and a BG Neo 3 PDR tweeter...
Interesting. I'm not familiar with the BG unit (just having a look now). If I recall correctly, the RT1 has to be crossed over pretty high.

Would you feel that using a pair of tweeters with normal (i.e. poorer off axis) response be an improvement over a single tweeter, or would the desired effect be too badly damaged by the reflected off axis sound? Also, what spacing are you considering between the tweeters (front to back), and between the tweeters and the mid (vertical)? I would've thought this would be an area ripe for difficulties, given the wavelengths involved.

I look forward to learning your chosen design for the next speaker model - this thread has already made very instructional reading.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Understood.

I had an idea to use magnets to lift the midrange cabinet above the bass enclosure - so it would effectively 'float' on air. I've not considered the design sufficiently yet to determine if the idea is practical.
This is the same, in principle, as a simple spring. It will have a Fs based on the stiffness of the 'spring' and loaded mass. It is practical, but be certain there is a damping device to prevent excessive oscillation(s). You could insert a piece of stiff cushion foam that is thick enough to fit snug between the two surfaces. Also, be certain that no coupling can occur horizontally along the horizontal stabilization guides that you will have to use.
Interesting. I'm not familiar with the BG unit (just having a look now). If I recall correctly, the RT1 has to be crossed over pretty high.
Yes, the RT1 element, practically, should be crossed over at 4kHz or greater. My use of this device depends on finding a suitable mid-range. So far, I have not found a suitable unit. In a desperate attempt, I purchased a Dayton RS dome mid, and I will butcher it with modifications, in order to attempt to get acceptable (for my objective) dispersion up to 6-7kHz(to account for overlap region of xover at 4khz).

Would you feel that using a pair of tweeters with normal (i.e. poorer off axis) response be an improvement over a single tweeter, or would the desired effect be too badly damaged by the reflected off axis sound?
Improvement, given the proper acoustical environment.

Also, what spacing are you considering between the tweeters (front to back), and between the tweeters and the mid (vertical)? I would've thought this would be an area ripe for difficulties, given the wavelengths involved.
Vertical spacing: as close as physically possible. As for front to back spacing, if if I go with the existing prototype, a minimum of 2 feet, but more likely, 2.5 feet.

-Chris
 
S

sploo

Full Audioholic
This is the same, in principle, as a simple spring. It will have a Fs based on the stiffness of the 'spring' and loaded mass. It is practical, but be certain there is a damping device to prevent excessive oscillation(s). You could insert a piece of stiff cushion foam that is thick enough to fit snug between the two surfaces. Also, be certain that no coupling can occur horizontally along the horizontal stabilization guides that you will have to use.
Yea, the oscillation and, especially, horizontal movement issues were the ones concerning me.

I was considering using some complex scheme to hold the magnet of the mid driver to decouple it from the baffle, but your technique of a stabilization ring + foam + neoprene washers is likely to be just as effective, and much simpler. Similarly, there must be a simpler way to suspend a mid enclosure and decouple it from the bass cabinet.


...My use of this device depends on finding a suitable mid-range. So far, I have not found a suitable unit...
Would a full range driver, used only as a mid, be suitable? From what I've seen, fullrange units often suffer from a lot of distortion, but I have seen them used in this way (not that this would indicate they're actually any good).

Improvement, given the proper acoustical environment.
Good news. Means I'm doing something at least remotely worthwhile at least!


Vertical spacing: as close as physically possible. As for front to back spacing, if if I go with the existing prototype, a minimum of 2 feet, but more likely, 2.5 feet.
Hmmm. What's needed is something shaped like a football (US) with a tweeter mounted on either end. A cutaway would obviously be required to get the mid close enough though.

Not easy to build, unless you have facilities to cast the shape. Laminating layers of MDF can create a nice rounded baffle, but it's not easy to create something like a ball.

I've seen machine turned large wooden balls being sold for a reasonable price - nothing the size you need, but perhaps it would be possible to find something like that, bore the center out, and cut flange rebates.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Y Similarly, there must be a simpler way to suspend a mid enclosure and decouple it from the bass cabinet.
Yes. Use thick gel pads(like used in some special cushions) and just sit one cabinet on the other. Or use cushion foam. However, cushion foam is tricky, as you need to use a quality high resilience foam, or it will rapidly settle. In any case, it will eventually settle. A steel spring or magnet spring system would last much longer. Because the foam in the spring system would be used only for a damping mechanism, it would not be under the high stress of a load, causing it to fail. It would fail only from dry rot.




Would a full range driver, used only as a mid, be suitable? From what I've seen, fullrange units often suffer from a lot of distortion, but I have seen them used in this way (not that this would indicate they're actually any good).
Most full range drivers have terrible response characteristics, in all areas. Some are equivalent to very good midbass units(Jordan), but you really gain nothing, compared to conventional units.

-Chris
 
krabapple

krabapple

Banned
Just found this thread -- and want to offer kudos to WmAx. I began wondering what was up when I read that the electronics were all 'standard issue' and then the references to Floyd Toole -- I smiled when I found WmAx as the 'punchline'.
Based on the consistently high technical quality of his posts here and on other forums, I'm not surprised to find he's done excellent work applying scientifically sound theory to practice, something all too rare in audiophile culture.

I do have one question for him -- the source for his decision not to treat first reflection points on sidewalls. I vaguely recall reading about this unorthodox strategy, possibly in a Toole paper, but would be grateful to know the rationale. Is it to do with using omni tweeters?
 
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WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I do have one question for him -- the source for his decision not to treat first reflection points on sidewalls. I vaguely recall reading about this unorthodox strategy, possibly in a Toole paper, but would be grateful to know the rationale. Is it to do with using omni tweeters?
There is so much to this. But to give a crude summation: credible blinded studies have found that trained listeners find the added phantom delays from the side wall reflection points to always enhance the perceived sound quality of stereo reproduction, when the reflection is within a specific time window, and the reflection has a very similar spectral content to the on axis signal. This does bring up another point. Increased audibility of delayed signal(s) also means enhanced audibility of resonances. This seems to be a weak point of most speaker systems, most likely[ I am speculating], due to cost involved to produce audibly inert cabinet systems. The perceptual studies are performed in anechoic chambers using discrete sound sources and/or performed using binaural model simulations on headphones.

-Chris
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
The perceptual studies are performed in anechoic chambers using discrete sound sources and/or performed using binaural model simulations on headphones.
-Chris
Chris,
Most of this thread is way over my head, but the headphone comment got my attention. Many of the Cd's that I like have poor dynamic range when listened to on my Paradigm Studio 20s. When I listen to same Cd's through Senns HD 580's they sound fine. Do your comments above explain any of this? I have always been curious about this. I use a Corda Head Amp, but the same applies to the headphone out on the receiver. The Corda is a nice piece of equipment, but it sounds pretty much the same as the headphone out on the various receivers I have owned.

Nick
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Chris,
Most of this thread is way over my head, but the headphone comment got my attention. Many of the Cd's that I like have poor dynamic range when listened to on my Paradigm Studio 20s. When I listen to same Cd's through Senns HD 580's they sound fine. Do your comments above explain any of this? I have always been curious about this. I use a Corda Head Amp, but the same applies to the headphone out on the receiver. The Corda is a nice piece of equipment, but it sounds pretty much the same as the headphone out on the various receivers I have owned.

Nick
I can not make any likely guesses based on this limited amount of information.

I should point out that the headphone experiments used in some of the mentioned perceptual tests have nothing to do with the way one normally uses headphones. The headphone tests in question use carefully produced binaural models developed specifically for the tests, and replicate almost exactly, the way various acoustic spaces react, as if one was actually using speakers, not headphones. These headphone tests were not simply theorized, but first, control conditions were set up in real acoustic dimension spaces, and the headphone binaural models were compared to the real situations, in order to determine if the models would be useful for such testing.

-Chris
 
N

Nick250

Audioholic Samurai
I can not make any likely guesses based on this limited amount of information.

I should point out that the headphone experiments used in some of the mentioned perceptual tests have nothing to do with the way one normally uses headphones. The headphone tests in question use carefully produced binaural models developed specifically for the tests, and replicate almost exactly, the way various acoustic spaces react, as if one was actually using speakers, not headphones. These headphone tests were not simply theorized, but first, control conditions were set up in real acoustic dimension spaces, and the headphone binaural models were compared to the real situations, in order to determine if the models would be useful for such testing.
-Chris
Thanks, just thought I would ask because I have yet to figure out why poor dynamic range Cd's sound better on the HD580s. It's counter intuitive to me as I think of the headphones as more reveling.

Nick
 
krabapple

krabapple

Banned
There is so much to this. But to give a crude summation: credible blinded studies have found that trained listeners find the added phantom delays from the side wall reflection points to always enhance the perceived sound quality of stereo reproduction, when the reflection is within a specific time window, and the reflection has a very similar spectral content to the on axis signal. This does bring up another point. Increased audibility of delayed signal(s) also means enhanced audibility of resonances. This seems to be a weak point of most speaker systems, most likely[ I am speculating], due to cost involved to produce audibly inert cabinet systems. The perceptual studies are performed in anechoic chambers using discrete sound sources and/or performed using binaural model simulations on headphones.

-Chris
Thanks...can you point me to some refs about this?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Thanks...can you point me to some refs about this?
I'll point you to one article that summarizes and reviews a lot of the relevant research in up this point:

Loudspeakers and Rooms for Sound Reproduction—A Scientific Review
Floyd E. Toole
JAES, June, 2006, Vol. 54, No. 6, pages 451-476

-Chris
 

Buckle-meister

Audioholic Field Marshall
The two closest competitors to these speakers are the Linkwitz Orions and Vandersteen 2CE Signature
Since the two speakers mentioned almost certainly weren't listened to in WmAx's room how can you make this comparison?

...the speakers I heard [WmAx] now considers “third-rate”. My speakers that are in the works will be “second-rate”. “First-rate”...is not just a pipe dream either. The designer has constructed a mock-up of the front baffle design to test dispersion and achieved nearly perfect results.
WmAx, given that the speakers Jaxvon heard are already considered exceptional, even if your latest mock-up measures better than anything in the past, is it your opinion (do you know for a fact?) that you'll actually hear a difference. After all, the closer you get to perfection, the harder it must be to discern a difference. :)

So who is the mad scientist behind these speakers? You all know him as WmAx.
A little dramatic Jaxvon. :rolleyes: Good review though. :)

The driver configuration is just 3-way, the Linaeum tweeter, a 5.25" Focal midrange (it might be 6.5"), and an 8" kicker woofer.
WmAx, given only an 8" woofer, what is the lowest practical frequency that you hear at the listening position?
 
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