Trying to understand AUDIO RESOLUTION and how it relates to our disc players

[davidtwotrees]

I think you guys are making perfect common sense! The "audiophile" who got me into the game has bought into all the snake oil this hobby affords. Spending $1200 on a pair of NOS Western Electric 300B tubes, $2k on ten feet of speaker wire...............on a modest income, I might add. He claimed these mods made his system radically different...........
As to the high end stuff, I haven't heard enough of it to make an educated guess, but I can tell you that what I have seen, the build quality of a Krell is way above the build quality of a Denon. Not much plastic goes into building a Krell, I would imagine. As a tradesperson, I appreciate things that are well built, be it homes, furniture, cars, or stereos.
I want my home to look nice, and my stereo is part of the decor, too! So, of course I want my HT to be all it can be sonically, but it needs to look nice, as well.
I guess my point is that if a Chevy Impala and a BMW 500 series both did the quarter mile in 15 seconds, I'd hop in the beamer every time. But, that's just me............

 

[Nick250]

I'm not sure what you mean by amplification. Sufficient amplifiers for 'any' level of speaker can be purchased on the cheap these days. A commodity item, almost.
-Chris

Sorry, my post may have been a bit unclear. What I was trying to say is that I agree with you 100%.

Nick

 

[jcPanny]

DVD-A and SACD playback

FYI,
The Oppos and some other players can transmit DVD-A and SACD signals over the HDMI 1.2 connection to the receiver. In this case, the receiver is still doing the surround processing and the D/A conversion.

 

[mr-ben]

FYI,
The Oppos and some other players can transmit DVD-A and SACD signals over the HDMI 1.2 connection to the receiver. In this case, the receiver is still doing the surround processing and the D/A conversion.

That's true, but then you need to buy a receiver that inputs HDMI 1.2 and can decode DSD or 192/24 DVDA. I believe that's going to be more expensive than purchasing a player that outputs 6 channel analog and inputting that into an inexpensive receiver (that doesn't poorly re-digitize the signal). I'm new here, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[MACCA350]

That's true, but then you need to buy a receiver that inputs HDMI 1.2 and can decode DSD or 192/24 DVDA. I believe that's going to be more expensive than purchasing a player that outputs 6 channel analog and inputting that into an inexpensive receiver (that doesn't poorly re-digitize the signal). I'm new here, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

How many receivers actually digitize the 6/8channel analogue inputs. At least a year or two ago there were only a handful and these were the rather expensive models, most including my Denon 3805 only allow volume control on the EXT-IN(although the other stereo analogue inputs(ie, DVD, VCR, etc) do digitize). Has this changed recently?

cheers

 

[timetohunt]

How many receivers actually digitize the 6/8channel analogue inputs. At least a year or two ago there were only a handful and these were the rather expensive models, most including my Denon 3805 only allow volume control on the EXT-IN(although the other stereo analogue inputs(ie, DVD, VCR, etc) do digitize). Has this changed recently?

cheers

Well check this out from an earlier post. According to Swerd even the analog input is digitized in regard to A/V recievers.

"In fact, if a CD player is connected by analog cables to an AV reciever, the first thing that happens is the receiver DIGITIZES the analog audio signal! Most of the signal processing performed by AV recieivers is done in the digital mode. This is true for any standard 2-channel analog audio source."

I still get confused, since you are saying only expensive ones digitize the audio making it sound like a desirable feature.

 

[MDS]

The key is the statement 'This is true for any 2 channel analog source'.

If you connect a dvd player to the receiver using analog connections, the receiver will do a/d on the signal so that it can apply bass management and use surround decoders like PLII.

MACCA350 was referring to the 6 channel analog inputs which are there mostly for SACD and DVD-A. Most receivers just pass the signal straight through to the amplifiers. This was a big knock on sacd and dvd-a originally because neither the players nor the receiver would do any bass management.

 

[Swerd]

timetohunt

I just reread your original post, as this thread has become confusing for me too.

You said you have a universal player. I assume you mean a player that handles standard CD, standard DVD including Dolby Digital or DTS audio, SACD, and DVD-A formats. Correct?

The standard way to hook a universal player to an AV receiver has been to use both a digital connection (either toslink optical or RCA coaxial wire are fine), and 6 RCA analog cables. The digital connection handles the standard CD and DVD formats. This will send digital signal from the player to the receiver, where the receiver's DAC will do all the conversion to analog.

For SACD or DVD-A, digital to analog converstion takes place in the disc player, and the 5.1 analog signals go to the receiver by the 6 individual RCA cables. This bypasses the digital signal processing available in the receiver and sends the 6 audio channels directly to the appropriate amplification channels in the receiver. This awkward arrangement was intended to prevent making unauthorized digital copies of those formats.

Apparently, some newer universal players can transmit digital audio signals for DVD-A and SACD via HDMI 1.2 connection to a receiver. I was not aware of this, but it makes sense because one of the purposes of HDMI connections was to preserve copy protection. But such a receiver would have to be able to decode DVD-A and SACD formats. If you have one of these, use the HDMI connection. If not, use the 6 RCA connections.

As far as the question of using a CD player with a "high end" DAC in it, it makes no sense to use one for playing standard 2-channel CDs while connected to an AV receiver by 2-channel analog cable, because the receiver will digitize the 2-channel analog source.

I hope this clears up some of your confusion.

 

[mr-ben]

As far as the question of using a CD player with a "high end" DAC in it, it makes no sense to use one for playing standard 2-channel CDs while connected to an AV receiver by 2-channel analog cable, because the receiver will digitize the 2-channel analog source.

This isn't always true. In my case, my CD player has a very nice set of DACs in it. Nice is relative.... they sound better than the DACs in my receiver, which is all that matters. My receiver can be set to NOT digitize the signal on the cd and other inputs, and it performs bass management in analog. Denon is quite clear about this on the first page of this document: http://usa.denon.com/avr3300_technotes.pdf I don't know if this is true for all Denon receivers, but I suspect it is.

I have three sets of connections from the player to the receiver. 6 analog cables for surround hooked up to the 'ext in' on the receiver, two analog cables for stereo hooked up to the CD input, and one optical digital cable. Most of the time, I use the 'ext in' cables, and I'm usually listening to SACD/DVDA. My player has bass management, so this works well. I also use these for most movies. When listening to 2-channel discs I sometimes switch to the CD input, since I've read that the player's 2-channel outputs are supposed to be better than the surround outputs. I haven't really spent much time switching back and forth between these two. They sound slightly different, but I'm happy with either. The optical out is used for discs in dolby pro-logic such as older movies and TV shows. My player doesn't process pro-logic, and the 'ext in' of the receiver just gets 2-channel stereo. So I send it via digital and let the receiver process it. The quality difference between this digitial connection and the analog connections is very noticeable to me, with the analog sounding much better (I tested this with regular CDs).

timetohunt - Sorry if it's confusing. In your case, I'd attach 6 cables from the 6-channel output of your new player to the 6-channel input of your receiver, and just enjoy the music. Don't worry about anything else.

 

[Swerd]

This isn't always true. In my case, my CD player has a very nice set of DACs in it. Nice is relative.... they sound better than the DACs in my receiver, which is all that matters. My receiver can be set to NOT digitize the signal on the cd and other inputs, and it performs bass management in analog. Denon is quite clear about this on the first page of this document: http://usa.denon.com/avr3300_technotes.pdf I don't know if this is true for all Denon receivers, but I suspect it is.

Thanks for pointing that out. Clearly, not all receivers are the same. Mine is a smaller Denon (AVR-1800) of a similar vintage. It has no such feature. Perhaps Denon took pains to point out that feature because it was uncommon.

That technote file you linked is the most clearly written document that I've ever seen from Denon. Denon makes good receivers, but their manuals are the worst I've ever tried to read. Maybe timetohunt's problem stem from the fact that he is trying to understand a Denon owner's manual .

 

[timetohunt]

timetohunt - Sorry if it's confusing. In your case, I'd attach 6 cables from the 6-channel output of your new player to the 6-channel input of your receiver, and just enjoy the music. Don't worry about anything else.

I need to digest the last few posts a bit as I am still finding my way in the hobby. One thing for sure is that this is a wonderful and challenging hobby relative to the amount of possibilities and debate. My mission is to not cheat myself, and get bang for the buck as I build. While I'm not an electrical or audio engineer, I have a scientific mind, plus about $12K worth of CDs and concert DVDs, and finally until just recently, I now have good speakers and a capable receiver. I have Klipch RF-83s and an RSW-10d sub, filled in with Cerwin Vega center and surrounds (the cerwins are stop gap until i can afford better). I had been listening to my collection for 9 years on a system that consisted of my father's old sherwood stereo receiver and a set of $300 speakers (and I'm 42). I've come a long way with the gear.

NOW BACK TO THE DISC PLAYER AND CONNECTIONS. Even my current universal player is not really a universal - its a multi format minus SACD. It had HDMI but no 6 channel out. Its another stop gap for me (only cost $79). I think I am leaning toward getting the latest DENON CD changer that offers HDCD decoding and then a separate universal for my DVD DVD-As and SACDs. I am also in the hunt for a new receiver - I really like the No-digitze features that Mr-Ben suggested that he has with his (THANKS FOR THAT. I might have to check that out.

 

[mr-ben]

Could you post the make/model of your current player and receiver? It's easier to determine the best connections if we know what we're working with.

 

[mjhamre]

timetohunt

Apparently, some newer universal players can transmit digital audio signals for DVD-A and SACD via HDMI 1.2 connection to a receiver. I was not aware of this, but it makes sense because one of the purposes of HDMI connections was to preserve copy protection. But such a receiver would have to be able to decode DVD-A and SACD formats. If you have one of these, use the HDMI connection. If not, use the 6 RCA connections.

Hopefully I am not going to confuse things more by saying that my understanding is that you can connect your Oppo to your HDMI receiver regardless of whether the receiver decodes DVD-A and SACD. The Oppo is able to take the DVD-A or SACD and turn it into PCM (which your receiver will definitely understand) and pass that over the HDMI so that you just need that one HDMI cable. This is related to the point that keeps being made about not really needing HDMI 1.3 for the new fancy uncompressed 7.1 audio specs. The player can decode them and pass them as lossless PCM streams. The receiver is still handling the bass managment and speaker positioning issues, the player is just taking all the different formats and passing it to the receiver as something that the receiver can definitely handle.

--Matt

 

[Seth=L]

Both CD and DVD require a red laser but the wavelengths differ. IIRC, CD uses a 780 nanometer laser and DVD uses a 640 nanometer laser. There is no reason to believe that a DVD player would be inferior to a dedicated CD player at reading redbook CDs.

Sorry to go slightly off topic here, but this prompted a question from curious me.

My Toshiba SD-9000 has twin laser pickups, one for DVD, on for CD. As far as I know it wasn't advertised as such (could be wrong). But why would they put two different lasers in the player if there wouldn't be a difference (noticable) in audio playback of RB CDs?

Not trying to jump down throats, just curious is all.

 

[Seth=L]

This isn't always true. In my case, my CD player has a very nice set of DACs in it. Nice is relative.... they sound better than the DACs in my receiver, which is all that matters. My receiver can be set to NOT digitize the signal on the cd and other inputs, and it performs bass management in analog. Denon is quite clear about this on the first page of this document: http://usa.denon.com/avr3300_technotes.pdf I don't know if this is true for all Denon receivers, but I suspect it is.

I would certainly hope there is a difference between the two. The receiver is about 7 years old and the player is new (as a note, its retail is near double what the receiver was)

 

[ronnie 1.8]

This isn't always true. In my case, my CD player has a very nice set of DACs in it. Nice is relative.... they sound better than the DACs in my receiver, which is all that matters. My receiver can be set to NOT digitize the signal on the cd and other inputs, and it performs bass management in analog. Denon is quite clear about this on the first page of this document: http://usa.denon.com/avr3300_technotes.pdf I don't know if this is true for all Denon receivers, but I suspect it is.

Is't this known as 'Pure Direct' or 'Direct' with Denon AVRs? I too have the same outputs from my player to my AVR (6 RCA for SACD/DVDA, 2 for CD, coax digital for DVD-V). When listening to 2 ch CDs, sometimes I want my AVR to process it into 6 ch (pure direct off), and sometimes I want to listen to it as it was recorded onto the disc (pure direct on).

 

[mtrycrafts]

Sorry to go slightly off topic here, but this prompted a question from curious me.

My Toshiba SD-9000 has twin laser pickups, one for DVD, on for CD. As far as I know it wasn't advertised as such (could be wrong). But why would they put two different lasers in the player if there wouldn't be a difference (noticable) in audio playback of RB CDs?

Not trying to jump down throats, just curious is all.

Well, the way the laser operates is that it sees the transition point between the lands and valleys on the CD. The height of that difference, yes, the physical height between the valley and top is such that it is half a wavelength causing the laser to be cancelled and is recognized. this is where to zero and one comes in, at the transition points, nothing more. Perhaps some DVD players have both and others are able to manipulate something for this transition to happen as the shorter wavelength would not cancel at the transition points.
Maybe a google search?

 

[Seth=L]

Is't this known as 'Pure Direct' or 'Direct' with Denon AVRs? I too have the same outputs from my player to my AVR (6 RCA for SACD/DVDA, 2 for CD, coax digital for DVD-V). When listening to 2 ch CDs, sometimes I want my AVR to process it into 6 ch (pure direct off), and sometimes I want to listen to it as it was recorded onto the disc (pure direct on).

All the AV receivers that I have owned that had 5.1, or 7.1 multi-analog inputs was forcibly direct mode. The most recent receiver I purchased, the Yamaha HTR-5980 is direct in 7.1 input. It also has a Direct mode for stereo sources (voids sub because of bass management post processes).

 

[Seth=L]

Well, the way the laser operates is that it sees the transition point between the lands and valleys on the CD. The height of that difference, yes, the physical height between the valley and top is such that it is half a wavelength causing the laser to be cancelled and is recognized. this is where to zero and one comes in, at the transition points, nothing more. Perhaps some DVD players have both and others are able to manipulate something for this transition to happen as the shorter wavelength would not cancel at the transition points.
Maybe a google search?

I know the laser can move up and down in a recipricating motion on most players now (don't know about oldies). Maybe that could account for something.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I'm fairly certain I recall discussions about dvd players not being able to play cd's as well as a cd player due to the different types of lasers being used. IIRC the general consensus was that most cd players offered the same redbook sq and that was better than redbook sq generally offered by dvd players. Am I missing something here?

Jack

The different laser has no effect on sound quality. How could it. The laser reads the transition points between the hills and valleys on the CD and counts time. The transition point is the place where a zero value becomes a one, or the other way around. The time between transitions, regulated by the length of the valley or hill, determines how many zeros are there or ones.

So, as long as the laser can read these transition points, create sound, it works properly. It cannot alter sound quality. Besides, the values of zero and ones, are not in sequence one after another as the sound is sampled but placed in packets and these packets are in different places on the cd; called the Reed-Solomon coding.
In order to affect sound quality, the D/A needs to be intelligent. Smart enough to know to affect the right part of the music.