External Amp Makes a BiIG Difference

[Seth=L]

There shouldn't be much if any audible difference among same spec amplifiers. If you had a Rotel rated for 200 watts per channel (able to handle 2 ohm on short term) with a good damping factor, and an Adcom that is also rated as the Rotel, the difference should be almost nill. One of the amplifiers may have a lower noise floor or some such thing that really won't have any impact while listening.

 

[mike c]

I did buy one but I have several old ones lying around and if I can use one of those I'll return the one I purchased. Now I have to figure out how to mount the fans. Click on my HT link and you will see my setup. Any suggestions???

I didn't mount mine. I just put the fans on top of the receiver - pulling air out - right above the heat sinks.

 

[wire]

There shouldn't be much if any audible difference among same spec amplifiers. If you had a Rotel rated for 200 watts per channel (able to handle 2 ohm on short term) with a good damping factor, and an Adcom that is also rated as the Rotel, the difference should be almost nill. One of the amplifiers may have a lower noise floor or some such thing that really won't have any impact while listening.

There mightbe a audible difference in the 2 amps , there design mightbe different . I not sure though , Ive never AB tested the brands and never heard a Rotel Amp . I have listin to Adcom , its a good amp ( a little on the dry side for me )

 

[Duffinator]

I didn't mount mine. I just put the fans on top of the receiver - pulling air out - right above the heat sinks.

That might work. I was thinking of having mine blow from inside the shelves out.

 

[PENG]

Duffinator,

well, as you know sound is pretty much subjective and maybe you're expecting too much from your system, though.

As you know, my speakers are far to be the cream-of-the crop from JBL and a friend of mine told me that (not sure whether it's true, though), an outboard amp. " somehow improves" the overall sound, kinda compensating speakers flaws (whenever applicable, though). Honestly, I didn't swallow that at all (kinda a BS...).

Maybe your speakers are that good (don't know), and perhaps they don't need any outboard amp. to perform at its best...

Anyway, I've been trying several times playing music, movies & live shows with and without the Samson (BTW a very, very basic outboard amp.) and I can tell you that I do hear a difference, for the better, with the amp. on.

Really don't know the reason why, but me, my wife, the kids & some friends, they've said they all prefer the sound with the "weaking strong" Samson ON... (not a blind test, though; just kinda A /B comparison, though).

Cheers!

It is not surprising that you heard a difference. The interesting thing is whether such a difference can be defined/quantified as major, huge, big, day and night, considerable (as you said in your earlier post). I don't know about your 3806 but it is reasonable to assume that in terms of sound quality only, it is better than or equal to my 3805, yet the differences I (and a few friends) heard from using the 3805+amp, a separate preamp+amp, and 3805 by itself, were not great. Once we gone past the initial excitement, any improvements we heard were subtle. It was almost like in the beginning we all anticipated a huge improvements so the first time that base drum hit, the canon fires, the brass.... etc., we felt WOW! it sounds so much more powerful, clear and undistorted even with the volume cranked right up. Then after a while, we got curious so we disconnected the amp and crank the receiver right up to beyond 100 dB, only to find that the 3805 was holding its own by delivering almost (not totally sure) as powerful and undistorted sound. Please note that all the time I am talking about 2 channel music. For multichannel music, I do believe the 3805 will struggle, depending on the source material.

After playing with 2 amps and one preamp long enough, I finally accepted my receiver. Next time I upgrade I will bypass preamps/amps below the 4K (when new) price point because I don't want that initial WOW factor/feeling to dissipate like it did last time. Further, I would most likely upgrade my speakers first, preamp second and power amp last.

 

[Seth=L]

There mightbe a audible difference in the 2 amps , there design mightbe different . I not sure though , Ive never AB tested the brands and never heard a Rotel Amp . I have listin to Adcom , its a good amp ( a little on the dry side for me )

The designs are different, but the goals are the same. Well enginered and constructedtransistor amplifiers based on the same topoligies should sound the same. The Adcom would leave you feel cold if you traditionally use tube amplifiers or certain transistor specialty amps such as Sunfire or the older Carver amps with an imposed warm colour. Traditional transistor amps are intended to be transparent and most are.

 

[Duffinator]

Once we gone past the initial excitement, any improvements we heard were subtle. It was almost like in the beginning we all anticipated a huge improvements so the first time that base drum hit, the canon fires, the brass.... etc., we felt WOW! it sounds so much more powerful, clear and undistorted even with the volume cranked right up. Then after a while, we got curious so we disconnected the amp and crank the receiver right up to beyond 100 dB, only to find that the 3805 was holding its own by delivering almost (not totally sure) as powerful and undistorted sound. Please note that all the time I am talking about 2 channel music. For multichannel music, I do believe the 3805 will struggle, depending on the source material.

I had low expectations when I first connected my Adcom GFA-555 II but was HOPING for a big improvement. I heard no difference at all. Oh well it was used and I knew I could get my money out of it which I did. So I moved to the Denon because it looked a lot nicer and didn't pop. It also had the ability to biwire and biamp my Monitor Audio speakers which I'm doing. I do think there is a slight improvement with the Denon for direct mode stereo music. It would be really hard for me to tell with movies because the sound is so inconsistent and I don't tend to re listen to the same track over and over. With music I can play a song that I"ve heard hundreds of times. I try and optimize my HT system for music and DVD's take a second seat. Except for the sub of course.

I won't get to the fans until this weekend. Do you think one fan on each amp is enough? Is two in your case overkill???

 

[mike c]

That might work. I was thinking of having mine blow from inside the shelves out.

PC fans are pretty weak (which is why they're quiet) they're not gonna be able to move a lot of air unless it was in a confined space like a PC casing. you'll know when you fire them up.

I believe that it will be better for your receiver if you prevent it from building up heat in the first place, rather than waiting for the heatsinks to heat up, then the heat that goes up will also heat the top casing, which should also conduct heat back to the other parts of the receiver.

 

[PENG]

I believe that it will be better for your receiver if you prevent it from building up heat in the first place, rather than waiting for the heatsinks to heat up, then the heat that goes up will also heat the top casing, which should also conduct heat back to the other parts of the receiver.

Good point, except for the last part.
Why does the receiver run so hot in the first place?

 

[Duffinator]

See below. Not only do I want to suck the hot air out of my amps but I also want to blow it out of the shelves they sit on.

 

[Seth=L]

Good point, except for the last part.
Why does the receiver run so hot in the first place?

Yes, this makes no sense. The Behringer is doing the grunt work.

 

[mike c]

Good point, except for the last part.
Why does the receiver run so hot in the first place?

million dollar question.

why the H do receivers run hot even without any load, even when you just turn it on and without it doing anything.

 

[avliner]

Hi Peng,

thanks for your comments!
Yeah, I'm sure you're not alone on your thoughts, though.
Matter of fact, describing the way a system sounds is really subjective and I'll try to put in words what I do feel:

a considerable difference to me is not "huge, night & day" and so on. What I felt was a better overall sound, when playng live shows or movies on multi-channel. I barely listen music on stereo mode though (I do prefer DPLII X).

Even on stereo mode, the sound is "tighter" now (I do consider my E-50 mains as good performers, with or without an amp., so IMO the word "tighter" is the one that better describes what I mean).

Anyway I'm sure both, the 3805 & 3806 have the guts to play loud & clear without any outboard amp., but having an amp (my case) makes the whole system sounds clearer, with more dynamics. It may sound weird to you, but the surrounds now are more detailed, though. I said weird because they're not being powered by the amp. and that makes me believe that the amp. somehow gets some strain off the 3806 amps, thus allowing it to have a better overall performance (maybe a dumb conclusion...).

As I said before, I'm not an expert by any means and I'm enjoying my very first amp. since the last few months and during that short period, I've found to better enjoy the sound with the power amp. ON, so I've decided to grab another Samson for the center channel soon.

Furthermore, if I decide to go to the 4 Ohms speakers route in the future, I'll be ready for that with the power amps though.

Well, I hope I could better describe my feelings now.

Cheers!

 

[Seth=L]

million dollar question.

why the H do receivers run hot even without any load, even when you just turn it on and without it doing anything.

The power supply will run hot if the unit isn't doing thing. The power supply runs hotter without anything going because it is working more.

 

[cfrizz]

You described the benefits of separate amplification perfectly AVliner. I came to the exact same conclusions myself when I added my first amp into my system.

Enjoy!

 

[Snarl]

It is not surprising that you heard a difference. The interesting thing is whether such a difference can be defined/quantified as major, huge, big, day and night, considerable (as you said in your earlier post). I don't know about your 3806 but it is reasonable to assume that in terms of sound quality only, it is better than or equal to my 3805, yet the differences I (and a few friends) heard from using the 3805+amp, a separate preamp+amp, and 3805 by itself, were not great. Once we gone past the initial excitement, any improvements we heard were subtle. It was almost like in the beginning we all anticipated a huge improvements so the first time that base drum hit, the canon fires, the brass.... etc., we felt WOW! it sounds so much more powerful, clear and undistorted even with the volume cranked right up. Then after a while, we got curious so we disconnected the amp and crank the receiver right up to beyond 100 dB, only to find that the 3805 was holding its own by delivering almost (not totally sure) as powerful and undistorted sound. Please note that all the time I am talking about 2 channel music. For multichannel music, I do believe the 3805 will struggle, depending on the source material.

I agree 100%, I went from a Denon 3805 to an outlaw 755 as an outboard amp (denon as a pre-pro). My take on the difference is as follows;
2 Channel no noticable difference, 5 channel stereo I noticed an improvement with the 755, less strain and cleaner at higher volumes (this is with music and I listen to lots of 5 Channel stereo music). With movies no real appreciable difference. I later added a 990 pre/Pro and overall not a "huge" difference (The denon clearly is a nice receiver) however the 990 did sound better just not hugely so, it came of as more detailed in movies i.e. DTS, Dolby also had some other features i liked.

IMHO

 

[PENG]

Hi Peng,

a considerable difference to me is not "huge, night & day" and so on. What I felt was a better overall sound, when playng live shows or movies on multi-channel. I barely listen music on stereo mode though (I do prefer DPLII X).

Even on stereo mode, the sound is "tighter" now (I do consider my E-50 mains as good performers, with or without an amp., so IMO the word "tighter" is the one that better describes what I mean).


Well, I hope I could better describe my feelings now.

Cheers!

Don't get me wrong, whether you care or not, I did find your observations credible and reasonable. I just wanted to share my own initial experience/impression of the effect of adding a powerful amp, when I was so sure the improvement was significant, but that initial impression faded away over time. It did, and still does, sound tighter with the amp.

 

[PENG]

The power supply will run hot if the unit isn't doing thing. The power supply runs hotter without anything going because it is working more.

Sorry Seth, I have to disagree with you this time. For a receiver such as the 3805 that we have been talking about, yes it will run hot with no load but it will run hotter under load. My comment is based on both theory and my own experience with the 3805.

 

[avliner]

...when I was so sure the improvement was significant, but that initial impression faded away over time. It did, and still does, sound tighter with the amp.

Hi Peng,

thanks for your comments; no regrets at all...

AFAIK, you've said that IT DID AND STILL DOES SOUND TIGHTER WITH A POWER AMP, right?

So, what's this deal is all about, BTW? IMO, you're maybe expecting too much from your system, who knows??

Perhaps your speakers are THAT efficient ones and an outboard amp. might not improve the overall sound they way you're expecting to, right?

IMHO you're having a darn good sound thru your system the way it is now, but you still want it to "overperform", though (please don't get me wrong on that, please).

Well, I'd finally say this: ENJOY YOUR SYSTEM AND BE HAPPY!

Hey man, I'm a JBL guy since way back when (sure for some I'm still in the Stone Age, LOL...), but end of the day I'm pretty much happy with what I have and tell you what: me, wife, kids & friends, we're pretty much enjoying every single moment we're together watching to live shows & movies, so even being far, far away from being in the so-called "AV Nirvana", I'm pretty much happy & enjoying my " B&M average speakers sound" very much, indeed (let me emphasize you that I don't ever wanna be an "audiophile", under no circumstances, whatsoever, though...).

Having said that, there might be a "very strong" explanation for such a miracle and "his" name is Samson, the mighty one... LOL

Bottom line, anyway, IMO, is that your sound is TIGHTER with an outboard amp. and that's what really count to you, isn't it??

Last, but not least, Happy Easter for you all!

Cheers.

 

[Seth=L]

Sorry Seth, I have to disagree with you this time. For a receiver such as the 3805 that we have been talking about, yes it will run hot with no load but it will run hotter under load. My comment is based on both theory and my own experience with the 3805.

You misunderstood. I was talking about Mike C's Yamaha specifically (he had mentioned that it ran hot even with no load). When the amp isn't moving energy along all the way to the heat sink (when there is no load) the heat is contained in the power supply. All that power is moving around in the power supply creating large amounts of friction. If the power supply is older or cheaper it will probably run even hotter. The other parts, such as the transistors, should stay relatively cool aside from any heat that is dissipated from the power supply. I wouldn't put fans on that receiver, because it really should only be running quite warm, not so much hot.

Of course, let me know if I am wrong on the subject.