External Amp Makes a BiIG Difference

[Duffinator]

Hi Gang, I haven't been posting here a lot but I'm still hanging here almost daily.

Anyway I got a new to me Denon POA-2800 2x200 wpc amp with two speaker outputs to do a sort of bi-amp bi-wire setup. I'm running this from my Denon AVR-3805 into my Monitor Audio S6 towers. I could not believe the difference this made to my system especially for music. The sound is much stronger, more detailed and dynamic. I know there's plenty of debate if one amp sounds better than another but in this case it's huge! I know Mulester will be happy to know I get a big bad amp added to my system. Wow what a difference it made! Here's some pictures of the amp.

 

[Haoleb]

Please tell me this isint another one of those april fools posts...

A mag-lev rack for 3k i can understand but saying amps make a big difference? whats so april fools about that? It happens everyday!

 

[PENG]

April fool or not, I am going to share my experience. When I first added an amp to my 3805 I also thought the SQ difference was huge. After listening to the new arrangement for a few weeks I thought I had got used to the sound so I disconnected the amp and expect to hear a deteriorated sound quality. To my surprise, the 3805 was able to hold its own, i.e. the initially perceived huge difference had somehow dissipated. After trying it several times with and without the amp I was sure then any perceived difference was no longer significant. That's when I pulled out my measurement instruments and started looking for hard evidence such as higher currents/volts etc. Up to SPL of 100 dB peak, the 3805 put out the same currents/volts without the help of the amp. I took both rms and peak values, and posted the results in another thread last year. I reconnected the amp anyway regardless, for several good reasons.

 

[Duffinator]

A mag-lev rack for 3k i can understand but saying amps make a big difference? whats so april fools about that? It happens everyday!

It happens everyday but not from me!

I did buy the Denon amp but it really didn't make much difference. I doubt I could tell it apart in a DBT. I bought this amp for two reasons: one was to see if there would be a difference and the other was to relieve my Denon 3805 of some work and hope it might run cooler. Well it doesn't run any cooler either. In fact it seems to run hotter. I can't figure that one out. Oh and the third reason was to make Mulester7 happy but I guess he hasn't seen this yet.

The 2800 is pretty sweet amp and has a huge toroidal transformer in it, nice build quality and matches well with the 3805. I haven't seen much talk about the Denon power amps here and only found a couple of hits doing a search. I think that will change now the Denon is going back into separates.

On another note what happened to the function where you can edit your posts???

 

[mike c]

mtrycrafts has finally driven mulester away

duffinator, why don't you use PC fans on top of your receiver, they can be connected to the switched outlets at the back of the receiver for automatic on and off. my yamaha receiver never gets warm after doing this on mine ... (I sometimes forget to turn off my receiver)

 

[Duffinator]

mtrycrafts has finally driven mulester away

duffinator, why don't you use PC fans on top of your receiver, they can be connected to the switched outlets at the back of the receiver for automatic on and off. my yamaha receiver never gets warm after doing this on mine ... (I sometimes forget to turn off my receiver)

Mule has been hanging at audiokarma.org so we chat often enough.

Funny you mention that as that's exactly what I'm planning on doing. There's a guy on eBay that sells kits that have speed controllers and he's here in Sacramento. A bit overkill but I'd like to control the speed just in case I can hear them. Or I'll just get a couple at Fry's and save a few bucks. I've heard a larger fan at a lower speed is the way to go.

 

[mike c]

if you can't hear the 80mm fans on your PC (not the power supply fan mind you), you can't hear these as well, I'm using two on my receiver, add more to suit your taste. total cost of my DIY ... 10 bucks.

 

[Davemcc]

April fool or not, I am going to share my experience. When I first added an amp to my 3805 I also thought the SQ difference was huge. After listening to the new arrangement for a few weeks I thought I had got used to the sound so I disconnected the amp and expect to hear a deteriorated sound quality. To my surprise, the 3805 was able to hold its own, i.e. the initially perceived huge difference had somehow dissipated. After trying it several times with and without the amp I was sure then any perceived difference was no longer significant. That's when I pulled out my measurement instruments and started looking for hard evidence such as higher currents/volts etc. Up to SPL of 100 dB peak, the 3805 put out the same currents/volts without the help of the amp. I took both rms and peak values, and posted the results in another thread last year. I reconnected the amp anyway regardless, for several good reasons.

I picked up an ART SLA-2 200wpc amp on Saturday just to see if it would make a difference. My wife and i both found the sound less pleasing with the amp installed. It seemed to lose some midrange presence with the amp. Back to back, the Denon sounded warmer. It's very subjective, I know, but it did sound different. Coupled with the fact that the gain level required of the amp (3/4 gain) to match the Denon's native gain level at any master volume level created a hum through the speakers and the fan was quite noisy, I just took the amp out of the system and I'll return it tomorrow. Maybe it was just because I was using a cheap amp, but I found that there was no gain and many drawbacks. I may revisit the issue again with a higher quality amp later on.

 

[Duffinator]

if you can't hear the 80mm fans on your PC (not the power supply fan mind you), you can't hear these as well, I'm using two on my receiver, add more to suit your taste. total cost of my DIY ... 10 bucks.

Mike or anybody else, do you know if the 12v trigger output will power a fan? Is there constant power coming from this output???

 

[Seth=L]

I used to have an Onkyo receiver with some fans on it, it worked well and did give me more headroom.

I can see (hear) a difference from a larger more powerful (more stable with loads) power amplifiers. Duffinator, you discribed the exact advantages of more powerful amplifiers. You said, "much stronger, more detailed and dynamic", these should be the characteristics of a larger power amplifier. You won't find any nay-saying from me.

 

[mike c]

there's most likely constant power ... but only up to 15mA I think.

what unit are you gonna use?

 

[mtrycrafts]

mtrycrafts has finally driven mulester away
)

That must be my newfound psychic powers I will be placing a shingle over the front door tomorrow.

 

[UFObuster]

I can see (hear) a difference from a larger more powerful (more stable with loads) power amplifiers. Duffinator, you discribed the exact advantages of more powerful amplifiers. You said, "much stronger, more detailed and dynamic", these should be the characteristics of a larger power amplifier. You won't find any nay-saying from me.

I seem to be hitting the same threads as you, Seth=L....and ditto your comment.
To the original poster, I added a Rotel 200wpc 2 channel separate amp to my Yamaha RX-V2600 to drive front Klipsch RF-7 in a 5.1 system. It most definitely improved sound quality. Why?....I can't say for sure but I suspect it's a three-way thing: 1) better quality component, 2) more power and separate power supplies and transformers, 3) issues related to a specific speaker...in my case the RF-7 needs the extra power.
Conclusion: no right answer for everyone...you've got to try it out...but I'm leaning in the direction that a separate amp for front speakers in a 5.1 system almost always helps.
Roger

 

[Davemcc]

you've got to try it out...but I'm leaning in the direction that a separate amp for front speakers in a 5.1 system almost always helps.
Roger

That's what I was thinking, but I think I need to start with better quality components from now on.

 

[PENG]

That's what I was thinking, but I think I need to start with better quality components from now on.

I think you do.. Not every 200WX2 guitar amp can beat your 2307 in SQ, but something like an Adcom, Outlaw will.

 

[avliner]

Hi guys,

really interesting thread, though...

As far as I can tell (I'm pretty much a newbie on separates, as I've got my very first amp. just about 3 months ago), I'm enjoying it very much and I can assure you I've got a considerable improvement soundwise, up to the point that I'm going to add a second amp. for the center channel until the end of this month. BTW, the Samson amp. is doing pretty well, really, so I'll just add another Servo 300 and I'm sure my system will perform even better...

Hope this helps!

 

[Duffinator]

As far as I can tell (I'm pretty much a newbie on separates, as I've got my very first amp. just about 3 months ago), I'm enjoying it very much and I can assure you I've got a considerable improvement soundwise, up to the point that I'm going to add a second amp. for the center channel until the end of this month. BTW, the Samson amp. is doing pretty well, really, so I'll just add another Servo 300 and I'm sure my system will perform even better...

Hope this helps!

Well I'm glad somebody has gotten a considerable improvement with an external amp. I didn't. Before I purchased the Denon POA-2800 (and none of you fellow Denon fanboys have commented about it yet) I was using an Adcom GFA-555-II and also couldn't tell any difference. The Adcom popped on start up and shut down, a known issue with them, and that's partly what prompted me to sell it and go with the Denon.

I picked up some 92mm fans today now I have to figure out the wiring and I'll be all set. I'll power them through my Adcom ACE-515 that has switched power outlets.

 

[mike c]

I picked up some 92mm fans today now I have to figure out the wiring and I'll be all set. I'll power them through my Adcom ACE-515 that has switched power outlets.

if those are 12v fans ... I hope you bought an AC to 12v DC adaptor. (or you can find an old adaptor from an old wireless phone or such)

 

[Duffinator]

if those are 12v fans ... I hope you bought an AC to 12v DC adaptor. (or you can find an old adaptor from an old wireless phone or such)

I did buy one but I have several old ones lying around and if I can use one of those I'll return the one I purchased. Now I have to figure out how to mount the fans. Click on my HT link and you will see my setup. Any suggestions???

 

[avliner]

Duffinator,

well, as you know sound is pretty much subjective and maybe you're expecting too much from your system, though.

As you know, my speakers are far to be the cream-of-the crop from JBL and a friend of mine told me that (not sure whether it's true, though), an outboard amp. " somehow improves" the overall sound, kinda compensating speakers flaws (whenever applicable, though). Honestly, I didn't swallow that at all (kinda a BS...).

Maybe your speakers are that good (don't know), and perhaps they don't need any outboard amp. to perform at its best...

Anyway, I've been trying several times playing music, movies & live shows with and without the Samson (BTW a very, very basic outboard amp.) and I can tell you that I do hear a difference, for the better, with the amp. on.

Really don't know the reason why, but me, my wife, the kids & some friends, they've said they all prefer the sound with the "weaking strong" Samson ON... (not a blind test, though; just kinda A /B comparison, though).

Cheers!