highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
ya i figured the house wiring would be the limiting factor it,s only rated for 1825watts .thanks honey
Hi dave,if you push your bryston's hard like i do my mac's getting 20 amp lines installed is the best upgrade you could ever spend money on,i'll never run another high wattage system from 15 amp service now that i have experienced the difference.
 
Geno

Geno

Senior Audioholic
The only really rational reasons to replace a power cord are:
1. Damaged
2. Too short

Of course, that's just my opinion...I could be wrong
 
2*pi*f*t

2*pi*f*t

Enthusiast
Hi dave,it depends,even though your amplifiers max power draw is rated at 2400 watts most likely your only using a max of 1800 watts to feed them,if your powering them from a standard 15 amp outlet the wattage is limited to 1800 watts before the breaker pop's,for 15 amp service your power cords are fine.

Unless you have 20 amp service you'll never feed the amps the full 2400 watts they are rated for,a 20 amp line will give you the 2400 watts,if you have 20 amp service allready you should replace the power cords with either 12 gauge or 10 gauge but again if your service is 15 amp there is no reason to replace them.
Not so! There are a host of factors to consider before you have a tidy answer of yea or nay but the ones cited above are simply in error.

1.) A 15A circuit can provide a heck of a lot more instantaneous power than you believe. This is due to the operating characteristic of branch circuit breakers. They are NOT a current limiting device but a circuit interrupter. They integrate current flow over time. And for short periods of time, a 15A one can supply as much power as a 20A, 50A or 100A circuit breaker. It is only when they exceed their rating that they open and cut power flow to the load. The hitch here is "for short periods of time", bigger breakers hold for longer periods. But there are ways around this as in #5.
2.) The true ampacity of wire is a function ONLY of its impedance. This IS a current limiting device due to Ohm’s law i = v/Z. And its impedance is SOLEY a function of length. So the shorter the wire, the more current it will carry. A 6 ft length of #14 copper at 120 vac 60Hz will carry 120/(6*0.002525) A or 7,920 A continuously. Note that impedance is frequency dependent. This is the basis for bi-wiring speakers.
3.) “Rated ampacity” for safety codes start with wire conducting in free air. For #14 copper, it is 20A for use in buildings but for electronic chassis wiring, it is 32A. The wire is then de-rated according to other factors primarily insulation class and bundling. For 3 conductor #14 AWG THHN a.k.a. ROMEX (typical house wiring) is de-rated to 15 amp.
4.) Since music is transient and not periodic in nature, continuous max power mean a completely different thing to the listener than sinusoidal output measurement to an ad-man. It is in fact that level that can produce the most powerful transient without clipping, i.e. over driving the amp into distortion. It is paradoxical that compressed music (FM radio) will have a higher continuous power usage/consumption than a CD or super CD/DVD with wider dynamic range when played at levels just below clipping. So how loud an amp "plays" is source dependent. Some CD’s will play "louder" than others using this criteria. And driving an amp into clipping is dangerous to your speakers—all your speakers: woofers, mids and tweeters. For as an amplifier clips the waveform, the output approaches pure DC causing voice coils to overheat and melt. Besides better sound is to be had by turning down the gain and avoiding clipping altogether. Isn’t that the point of all this, better sound?
5.) Class AB amps, especially high-end ones, have enormous power supplies that act as energy reservoirs to provide power reserves for transients. A good analogy is a water tower. One does not have to size the pump to supply the tank at anywhere near peak demand, only fast enough to keep it from being emptied for a certain period. Still one can dump a heck of a lots of water at one time if necessary. Time is on the pump’s side. A flywheel, too, stores energy that can be used as needed but the motor turning it does not have to supply anymore that enough to turn the wheel initially.
6.) All consumer electronic equipment is subject to stringent safety codes and testing (UL). It is folly to think the power cord is improperly sized and without a considerable safety factor, too—the company couldn’t stand the lawsuits! Secondly, good design dictates designing for the lowest common denominator. Here, it certainly would be that 15A circuit, which is the minimum by code and by law in most places/markets and the most prevalent.

So will he or won’t he get full power? I would venture yes initially. Then maybe. Will it sound as good as it could—the absolute sound? No way! That is unquantifiable and totally subjective. But one can still tweak.

Hope this helps.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
Not so! There are a host of factors to consider before you have a tidy answer of yea or nay but the ones cited above are simply in error.

1.) A 15A circuit can provide a heck of a lot more instantaneous power than you believe. This is due to the operating characteristic of branch circuit breakers. They are NOT a current limiting device but a circuit interrupter. They integrate current flow over time. And for short periods of time, a 15A one can supply as much power as a 20A, 50A or 100A circuit breaker. It is only when they exceed their rating that they open and cut power flow to the load. The hitch here is "for short periods of time", bigger breakers hold for longer periods. But there are ways around this as in #5.
2.) The true ampacity of wire is a function ONLY of its impedance. This IS a current limiting device due to Ohm’s law i = v/Z. And its impedance is SOLEY a function of length. So the shorter the wire, the more current it will carry. A 6 ft length of #14 copper at 120 vac 60Hz will carry 120/(6*0.002525) A or 7,920 A continuously. Note that impedance is frequency dependent. This is the basis for bi-wiring speakers.
3.) “Rated ampacity” for safety codes start with wire conducting in free air. For #14 copper, it is 20A for use in buildings but for electronic chassis wiring, it is 32A. The wire is then de-rated according to other factors primarily insulation class and bundling. For 3 conductor #14 AWG THHN a.k.a. ROMEX (typical house wiring) is de-rated to 15 amp.
4.) Since music is transient and not periodic in nature, continuous max power mean a completely different thing to the listener than sinusoidal output measurement to an ad-man. It is in fact that level that can produce the most powerful transient without clipping, i.e. over driving the amp into distortion. It is paradoxical that compressed music (FM radio) will have a higher continuous power usage/consumption than a CD or super CD/DVD with wider dynamic range when played at levels just below clipping. So how loud an amp "plays" is source dependent. Some CD’s will play "louder" than others using this criteria. And driving an amp into clipping is dangerous to your speakers—all your speakers: woofers, mids and tweeters. For as an amplifier clips the waveform, the output approaches pure DC causing voice coils to overheat and melt. Besides better sound is to be had by turning down the gain and avoiding clipping altogether. Isn’t that the point of all this, better sound?
5.) Class AB amps, especially high-end ones, have enormous power supplies that act as energy reservoirs to provide power reserves for transients. A good analogy is a water tower. One does not have to size the pump to supply the tank at anywhere near peak demand, only fast enough to keep it from being emptied for a certain period. Still one can dump a heck of a lots of water at one time if necessary. Time is on the pump’s side. A flywheel, too, stores energy that can be used as needed but the motor turning it does not have to supply anymore that enough to turn the wheel initially.
6.) All consumer electronic equipment is subject to stringent safety codes and testing (UL). It is folly to think the power cord is improperly sized and without a considerable safety factor, too—the company couldn’t stand the lawsuits! Secondly, good design dictates designing for the lowest common denominator. Here, it certainly would be that 15A circuit, which is the minimum by code and by law in most places/markets and the most prevalent.

So will he or won’t he get full power? I would venture yes initially. Then maybe. Will it sound as good as it could—the absolute sound? No way! That is unquantifiable and totally subjective. But one can still tweak.

Hope this helps.
Good post,lots of good info in it too but i have a few problems with it,not with what you wrote or the principals behind it but that it rely's on duration or cycle,i read this same arguement all the time when guys are discussing amplifier wattages, yes it will work but for how long & at what expense to the overall performance of the system.

With hard useage while playing full range music with demanding passages even the biggest krell amps power supply will eventually not be able to keep up & then what,the amp still functions but its starving for power until eventually the breaker pop's,ive poped my old breakers plenty of times with my krell & mcintosh amps when i was running 15 amp lines,this didnt hapen right away but after a few minutes of hard use out they went,since installing 20 amp lines for the main system ive yet to blow a breaker.

Im a firm believer that for maximum performance neither wattage or power should ever be restricted to a cycle or alloted time before either loose integrety.
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
2.) The true ampacity of wire is a function ONLY of its impedance. This IS a current limiting device due to Ohm’s law i = v/Z. And its impedance is SOLEY a function of length. So the shorter the wire, the more current it will carry. A 6 ft length of #14 copper at 120 vac 60Hz will carry 120/(6*0.002525) A or 7,920 A continuously..
A 6 foot length of #14 will vaporize if fed 7,290 amps. It will do so in less than one second if the starting temperature is 4.5 kelvin, liquid helium. (experience is the best teacher.:(

Your calculations provide the maximum fault current that will be available if the transformer feed is capable of supporting the fault current. It is not what a house feed will be capable of.
Note that impedance is frequency dependent. This is the basis for bi-wiring speakers.
Actually, no it is not the basis in reality..perhaps you have read a white paper which claims such, but that paper would be incorrect.


The rest of your post seems fine...btw, love the moniker.

Cheers, John
 
2*pi*f*t

2*pi*f*t

Enthusiast
Your calculations provide the maximum fault current that will be available if the transformer feed is capable of supporting the fault current. It is not what a house feed will be capable of.

Cheers, John
Yes, I know but that doen't take away from my point. I neglected ohmic heating and increases in the temperature coefficient of resistance but that matters only in rigor. As in most things simple application of theory is but half the truth--just look.... oh, never mind:eek:
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Is it just me or does anybody elses duck shrink when these guys get rolling:eek:

Thats a whole lotta goes intas & cypherin:D
Ya gotta be able ta p!$$ in the tall grass if ya wanna hang with the big dogs.

I actually had a question about your 20 amp line. 12 ga wire, right? Would using 10 ga with a 20 amp breaker and outlet do anything bad?
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
That's what I heard after asking electricians at work. Thanks for the info.
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
I actually had a question about your 20 amp line. 12 ga wire, right?
Correct,i think i should point out that i did not do a DIY on the install of these lines,i had an electrician friend of mine do the install,i'll wire up some stuff out in my barn but in my home im always thinking of the worst case.

I worry that if a fire happens (for any reason) i'd loose my home owners coverage,insurance companies give me the creeps.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
Fear Not

I worry that if a fire happens (for any reason) i'd loose my home owners coverage,insurance companies give me the creeps.
Insurance? Wadya need that for?:eek: KIDDING!!!!

I'm in the proccess of building an "in wall" entertainment center that will stick into the spare room. The TV and speakers are to be wall mounted above it. I am a huge supporter of permits and inspections and that's not just to cover my a$$ either. I would never put my neighbors lives at risk. Besides that I really like getting stuff right and the whole inspection process can easily point out any oversights on the part of the installer. Rest easy.:)
 
J

jneutron

Senior Audioholic
Yes, I know but that doen't take away from my point. I neglected ohmic heating and increases in the temperature coefficient of resistance but that matters only in rigor.
Actually, you stated that a 6 foot length of #14 was capable of 7,900 amps continuously...that was what needed correction. That is the maximum the resistance of the wire would pull from a 120 volt source if the source impedance were sufficiently low.

And I did not take away from your point. As I said, I had no issues with the rest of your post (if you exclude the biwire statement.)

As in most things simple application of theory is but half the truth--just look.... oh, never mind:eek:
Application of theory is the entire truth. The problem is, the theory needs to be valid for the application. If you examine the biwire white papers, you will find (or should find) that they use either incorrect theory, or make up their own to suit their target customer.

While you calculated the bolted fault current correctly (assuming zero source impedance), that does not mean the wire is capable of sustaining the bolted fault current. Watch a safety video for arc flash....they drop a coupla kiloamps into a #10 or #12, and the "event" is over in 40 to 60 milliseconds.

Cheers, John
 
2*pi*f*t

2*pi*f*t

Enthusiast
I actually had a question about your 20 amp line. 12 ga wire, right? Would using 10 ga with a 20 amp breaker and outlet do anything bad?
No. One can consider doing so either as future-proofing or a complete waste of money. Given that the cost of copper wire is very much more than the differential cost of the appropriately sized ckt bkr, it becomes a question of why would you do such on purpose?

Again, branch circuit breakers in a house are there ONLY to protect the wire from overheating due to carrying too many amperes. The sizing of the ckt bkr and wire are dictated by the National Electric Code (NEC) under the auspices of the National Fire Protection Agency (NFPA). There standards were codified into law by many communities to protect citizens from buying unsafely built occupancies. These standards are very conservative as they deal with safety of human life.
 
Alex2507

Alex2507

Audioholic Slumlord
One can consider doing so either as future-proofing or a complete waste of money.
In that case I have to go with option 'A'. Future-proofing!
The cost difference is, what, $10 for 50'? I got $10 to throw away on that.

I'm asking questions like this because I don't know my a$$ fom a hole in the ground when it comes to these matters. Especially when compared with most of the people here.

In my little head I see a heavier wire doing a better job of supplying power. I see a circuit breaker with a lower amp rating as providing a safer threshold for 1. heat and 2. the amount of power my system has access to.

Since all this is like voodoo to me I feel compelled to apply a little superstiton every chance I get. Overkill in the attempts to reach quality doesn't phase me because material is cheap. I am not opposed to being brought to the light on anything and I'm not in a rush to apply my half baked ideas. So far in order to temporarily and experimentally hook up my system I have plugged exactly (1) item into a wall outlet, and have used (9) cable hold down clips to run a speaker wire. And the system works. Now I'm gathering info and getting ideas before I start running power. I'm not thin skinned so if you care to correct me you need not prance. I am the one benefitting here.

My goal is to be able to look at a product and say, "It's done, it's right and it works". In AH circles it's nothing to write home about but in my circles it's impressive and I plan to be smug.:D
 
highfihoney

highfihoney

Audioholic Samurai
Home owner's insurance, what's that? I live in Florida. They all packed up and left years ago :mad:
Yup,you guys in that part of the country get bent straight over on home owners that is basicaly useless & costs more than my property taxes,home owners & auto insurance for 3 cars 1 truck & 3 motorcycles combigned.

Dont you's guys have to get insurance approved by the state with all kinds of exclusions as to whats covered with staggering deductibles on anything that is covered?
 
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top